Naruto Thread (Spoilers For Sure)

So Asura was closer to dad?

Oh wait, rinnegan needs both Uchiha and Senju. Did Indra have the rinnegan?

Yeah, I'm super confused here.

Basically he just gave them the ultimate techniques for their bloodlines.

Way back when Naruto was still in school (think chapter 1 of the first series iirc), he and sasuke kissed. They shared genes.
It was for this moment.

Apparently Kabuto gave Sasuke Senju cells, so I'm not confused about that.

I'm more confused about what belongs to Indra, Asura and Hagoromo. And maybe his mother and brother as well... ugh.

So in the end it's the two grandkids vs their grandmother

Let it be known that Naruto has some of the best entrances in anime history

Let it be known that Naruto has some of the best entrances in anime history

I really couldn't care less for it.

Nothing angers up me like power ups from nowhere and sending the message that despite what the sage was claiming about hard work and other such crap that he is instantly able to bestow greater power for no work at all from anyone for any good reaason.

I really couldn't care less for it.

Nothing angers up me like power ups from nowhere and sending the message that despite what the sage was claiming about hard work and other such crap that he is instantly able to bestow greater power for no work at all from anyone for any good reaason.

Isn't shounen the wrong genre for you then?. As much as I can agree that random power ups are stupid you see them in these mangas like 60% of the time. Heck I am not even bothered at Naruto and Sasuke's power up because I can see a bit of logic behind it, but Madara's powerup? The freaking tree was already inside his body wasn't it? how is that NOW it gives him a much greater power than he already had?....

Don't dem purple eyes let you absorb Ninjutsu?

Isn't shounen the wrong genre for you then?. As much as I can agree that random power ups are stupid you see them in these mangas like 60% of the time. Heck I am not even bothered at Naruto and Sasuke's power up because I can see a bit of logic behind it, but Madara's powerup? The freaking tree was already inside his body wasn't it? how is that NOW it gives him a much greater power than he already had?....

Most of the genre has no problem, arbitrary training sequences (or dragon slayers being able to eat magic in fairy tail), sure, but at least those power ups are justified far prior to being required.

When you have a fight scene that, at any point, you can just say, for no good reason "now the main character is stronger than you despite clearly being far far weaker seconds before".
Naruto was quite good at not doing this for a long time until the war arc happened. One piece rarely does it, and it's probably the most popular manga for a reason, and fairy tail does it quite often with natsu, but the dragon slayers can eat other magic thing was written explicitly from chapter 1 as a canon get out if a short term power up is needed.

Don't dem purple eyes let you absorb Ninjutsu?

Yes, but the argument now is that madara is using senjutsu and not ninjustsu

Someone should challenge themselves to go back and count how many non-training powers this series has had.

I don't really understand the complaints if the entire point of the sage of the six paths and his background is that he can give chakra to others.

Naruto has worked for a vast majority of his abilities. I really don't understand why you would want an entire training section in the middle of a war just so he doesn't get a technique for no effort whatsoever. Plus there's a fair amount of abilities in the series that have literally nothing to do with training anything in the first place.

Naruto has worked for a vast majority of his abilities. I really don't understand why you would want an entire training section in the middle of a war just so he doesn't get a technique for no effort whatsoever. Plus there's a fair amount of abilities in the series that have literally nothing to do with training anything in the first place.

I don't. But this might surprise you, it's completely possible to write a story without having to resort to bullpomegranate if you plan ahead.

And in case you hadn't noticed, literally anyone can give chakra to anyone. That being the standard way to break genjutsu. The problem comes about when a guy who is long dead appears out of nowhere with no hints to having been alive in any sense of the word to give someone a power that somehow exceeds everything, despite the person in question already massively out shadowing every other person by miles (With the exception of 8 gates guy, of course, but that was mentioned to be ridiculously overpowered in its very first appearance).

Hell, at least bleach tried to justify it by timey wimey logic, which, while also stupid in that sense, followed the rules set out in the manga for the most part. And you know you're doing something wrong when your plot can be looked at in a bad light compared to bleach.

Itachi had to practice a lot with Izanami.

Itachi had to practice a lot with Izanami.

Really, your first example that you come up with is a character who spends most of the manga offscreen (Ample time to learn new things) and was introduced as one of the strongest people in existence to begin with, alongside the fact that itachi never lost to anyone anyway, so you could always argue he never went all out.

If you can't spot the difference between that and a clear case of Deus ex machina, well...

Really, your first example that you come up with is a character who spends most of the manga offscreen (Ample time to learn new things) and was introduced as one of the strongest people in existence to begin with, alongside the fact that itachi never lost to anyone anyway, so you could always argue he never went all out.

If you can't spot the difference between that and a clear case of Deus ex machina, well...

... What?

I wasn't arguing for or against anyone, hence the lack of quotes. I just wanted to state something regarding the mentions of training and whatnot.

And on another related note, Naruto does have a lot of Broken Aesops. I think I even posted the list on this thread already, which I imagine by now would've been expanded even more.

 Here it is.

What bothers me the most about naruto is how the entire first half of it, at least, is just worthless. The entire premise of the set up is you have this bratty kid who is cursed and ridiculed, for having one of the strongest entities in their universe. It just so happens he inherited it and we should all hate him for it. Then they spout all this "HARD WORK CONQUERS ALL", in fact naruto vs neji just shoves that down your throat. Then we find out he's the 4th's son, one of the most revered ninja's, who was intentionally made the 9 tails host, where were supposed to believe this prodigy child is nothing more than an accident?

Fast forward now, and he's one of the strongest ninja, not by work, but this savant premise where he just inherently understands everything around him.

Yup, this has been touched on quite a few times.

• Naruto just doesn't treat its aesops very kindly.

[INDENT]

• While the story stresses the importance of working hard, Hard Work Hardly Works for anyone. All powerful characters have some form of power such as a bloodline limit, sheer talent, a sealed demonic beast or a cursed seal. Some people get lots of these. On the other hand, the characters notably lacking in talent like Rock Lee are badly outclassed despite working far, far harder than the likes of Naruto or Sasuke. Naruto, to put these points together, was a slacker at the beginning of the series, doesn't work as hard as Rock Lee and has The Gift in at least three forms. In other words, Naruto's sheer talent and plot coupons steamrolled all resistance.
  
• The track record of Screw Destiny is also rather poor.

[/INDENT]
[INDENT][INDENT]

• The moral of the Chuunin Exam's Naruto vs Neji fight was rather ironic: hard work will trump natural talent and a big heap of Screw Destiny was thrown into the mix. What brought him victory? If you guessed Naruto utilizing The Gift, you're actually right! His own natural gift/curse was simply way stronger than his opponent's! Seeing how his opponent's belief was that, regardless of your efforts, you'd never beat someone who was simply more talented, Naruto inadvertently proved Neji right. Eventually Neji fulfills his destined role as a branch member by sacrificing himself for Hinata, thus choosing to remain a caged bird.
  
• The intended aversion of You Can't Fight Fate was also slapped in the face right from the start, considering how prevalent Generation Xerox, family bloodlines and prophecy are in this series. Sakura, Sasuke and Naruto match up with the legendary Sannin and the latter two are members of powerful clans that trace back to the creator of Ninjutsu. Sasuke and Naruto in particular match up almost perfectly with the Sage's two sons.
  
• Naruto only has the gift/curse of the Kyuubi chakra because of who his parents are. If he hadn't been born the son of the Fourth Hokage Namikaze Minato and Uzumaki Kushina, he'd never have had the Kyuubi sealed in him. So, Neji was right in the fact that your birth determines your lot in life.
  
• On the other hand, Neji, after his defeat and finding out the truth about his father's death, concedes in an internal monologue that some things are predetermined, but the ones who pursue their dreams are truly strong. Naruto had the gifts from the beginning, but he wouldn't have succeeded as a ninja if he didn't put so much effort into improving himself.

[/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• There's the theme of the new generations surpassing the previous ones - this is, in theory, why Naruto and Sasuke manage to become stronger than Kakashi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and the like. However, that idea is utterly negated by the revelation that Madara Uchiha is capable of effortlessly defeating all five Kages at once. Hashirama was even stronger than that, and it seems as though only characters who were members of the older generation are allowed to accomplish anything meaningful during the Fourth Great Shinobi War - Itachi is the only one who can negate Edo Tensei, Tobi's plan would have failed a long time ago without Madara, in fact it actually was Madara's plan in the first place and the First Hokage (instead of Naruto, who would be the logical choice) talked Sasuke out of his insane vengeance scheme.
  
• In the beginning, teamwork was considered very important and nearly everytime someone tries to apply this, someone end up greviously injured or worse. Particularly the Chunnin Exams, where you use teamwork to get pass but the finals stage completely turns this around. Turning everything into a one-on-one tournament.
  
• One of the main morals of Naruto, as stated by kakashi, is that while those who break the rules are scum, those who forsake their fellows are even lower than that. We found out that Kakashi inherit this philosophy from Obito, who would had been killed if Kakashi just follow through with the mission. Instead we have Kakashi rescue Obito, who through a series of events able to be come Tobi. So if Kakashi had abandoned his comrades and completed the mission, Obito would have died instead of becoming Tobi. Then Nagato probably wouldn't have gone as insane, Naruto's parents would have survived and Naruto wouldn't have been an outcast, Minato might have stopped the Uchiha Massacre (making Sasuke nowhere near as messed up), the Moon's Eye Plan would have died with Madara, the Fourth Great Shinobi World War would have been avoided, and Akatsuki wouldn't be hunting down and killing Jinchuriki. Nice job screwing over the aesop, Kishimoto.

[/INDENT]

I don't know if anyone missundertood what I tried to say but I wasn't complaining about Naruto and Sasuke's power ups. The way I see it, Ashura and Indra's powers were sealed within them and the sage used the chakra of the tailed beasts in naruto to make him a pseudo sage and the senju power in Sasuke to awake the rinnegan. That's why I say I see logic behind their power up.

Now with Madara, he already had the tree within himself, It's just dumb now the tree made him twice as powerfull and/or inmortal

I don't know if anyone missundertood what I tried to say but I wasn't complaining about Naruto and Sasuke's power ups. The way I see it, Ashura and Indra's powers were sealed within them and the sage used the chakra of the tailed beasts in naruto to make him a pseudo sage and the senju power in Sasuke to awake the rinnegan. That's why I say I see logic behind their power up.

Now with Madara, he already had the tree within himself, It's just dumb now the tree made him twice as powerfull and/or inmortal

I don't think that's the case, I think what happened was the Mother was sealed in the tree, and by naruto severing it forced her to find a host (madara)

madara's upgrades sure are complicated tho:
he leveld up his own eyes to rinnegan, before death
HIS old-age rinnegan eyes were given to nagato, and re-transplanted; does that count like the uchiha "take your loved one's eyes"
(they passed through tobi/obito also)
he has hirishima and uchiha cells
he has 10-tail chakara
he 'rebirthed' his youthful "my most powerful form" fighting-body
he sharangan-broke/controlled the reanimation technique

about that last one; i think his only flaw was regaining his original body and losing the infinite/cant-be-destroyed body.
similar to how sasori's only weakness was purposely put outside his puppet body

he sharangan-broke/controlled the reanimation technique

about that last one; i think his only flaw was regaining his original body and losing the infinite/cant-be-destroyed body.
similar to how sasori's only weakness was purposely put outside his puppet body

While that may be an ass-pull, I think its probably explained with him needed a living body to become a jinjuriki. Otherwise I would agree.

madara already has legendary level chakara, becoming 10tail vessel seems over the top. infinity+1 sword; he already controlled the statue, and before openly admitting to using and no longer needing obito... he "lost control of" him. (shoulda took the eye away first lol).

it just seemed better to let obito become the container/sacrifice, and just control everything else; but when you're "the strongest" being alive, obviously you want more power... oh well

madara already has legendary level chakara, becoming 10tail vessel seems over the top. infinity+1 sword; he already controlled the statue, and before openly admitting to using and no longer needing obito... he "lost control of" him. (shoulda took the eye away first lol).

it just seemed better to let obito become the container/sacrifice, and just control everything else; but when you're "the strongest" being alive, obviously you want more power... oh well

He couldn't trust obito could handle such power methinks. why let a subordinate have the nth+1 godslayer when you can use it yourself? He could have a heelfaceturn (oh wait that never happens) and then use said power against madara; so playing it safe, better become mortal and take the WMD for myself.