I found this incredibly fascinating. Gotta love the Dotes players for finding out the truth about things like Hero Cleaves and why they are so ridiculously good.
It's a massive all around buff that doesn't make him any more interesting to play. Heroes need strengths and weaknesses. Keep him weak, slow, and squishy but give him stuff to compensate. Alternatively, make him better all around but change him to be more of a utility/ganker than a carry. And preferably add active skills, heroes with multiple passives are really boring.
I do like the idea of integrating Take Aim into his Ult, though.
I randomed clockwerk last match and it went alright but at one point I didn't know what to do with all the gold I had... I already had boots, bottle, aghs, even a blade mail because I was clueless and I ended the game with 4k gold. How is a sheep stick on him? Or even a BKB? What does he buy once he has his "core"?
Words Wrote:I randomed clockwerk last match and it went alright but at one point I didn't know what to do with all the gold I had... I already had boots, bottle, aghs, even a blade mail because I was clueless and I ended the game with 4k gold. How is a sheep stick on him? Or even a BKB? What does he buy once he has his "core"?
BKB or a Heart would be one of his next items. He's built to be both an initiator as well as being hard to kill while he isolates his victim. BKB if there's loads of nukes/disables on the other team. Heart if you're going to get hit really hard with lots of abilities that go through BKB (right clicks, physical abilities, even BKB-piercing ults), or need a way to heal in between team fights without going back to base.
AznJDragon Wrote:Yeah, I'm having a hard time trying to come up with active skills that fit for sniper. Anyways where is Malthe, he needs to invite us to SP guild D:
I was stuck in sweden, you can all pester me on steam all you want now for an invite to the guild.
Malthe Wrote:Which? Just list some and i'll try to help out. There is nothing to be scared of.
Some basic mechanics:
Last hitting: This one will be obvious for you, just hit the creeps when their HP is lower than your auto attack damage, DotA is tricky though because your damage is the average damage you deal, your damage range like in warcraft 3 goes from a minimum to a maximum.
Denying: Reverse last-hitting, do it on your own creeps and no enemies, you can start denying when creeps are below 50%, this can be used for different things, keeping the lane still so the enemy can be kept away from farm instead of getting close to their tower, in a lane where you're even on levels and so on, you can also use it to deny the enemy of potential gold and 50% of the exp. Certain heroes can deny creeps at max hp with their abilities.
Orbs: Orb effects normally don't stack, so lifesteal does not stack with mana burn and so on. But, for ranged heroes eye of skadhi works with life-steal.
Unique attack modifiers(orbs) go like this in terms of priority:
1:Conditional Modifiers - Modifiers that only occur on some attacks and are not controlled by the player, such as Maelstrom (chance-based), Mjollnir (chance-based), and Geminate Attack (cooldown-based)
2:Ability Modifiers - Modifiers granted by Hero abilities*
3:Standard Modifiers - Modifiers granted by items, with the first acquired taking priority
Creeps in the jungle spawn at 0:30 seconds into the game and from there on at X:00 everytime, this can be used to stack creeps so you get more creepcamps at one spot(you can search up guides for this on youtube)
You can also pull creeps to the lane to deny your own creeps even more/let them help you get more exp and gold for your lane.
If there are more mechanics you want to know about, do just ask, i'll explain/help/whatever.
Also something fun if you hover over the shadow demon on the blog:
Also, this is great for new players:
Spoiler
Malthe Wrote:You don't have to know how to last-hit with lich and crystal maiden though, same goes for most supports. They don't need the last-hits since someone else will be taking them to stack gold on one hero since items become increasingly more effective the more you have on one hero.
Other easy/noob friendly support heroes:
Tidehunter, venomancer, Ogre magi.
In DotA you usually split the 5 heroes into 5 positions.
It goes from first position to fifth position.
And it's about how much farm/gold you want on that hero.
1st position is usually a carry type hero, that ends up 'carrying' you to victory with enough gold.
2nd position are usually heroes that go mid because they need both exp and gold to be effective in the mid-game.
3rd positions are usually either going to be jungling or in the 'hard lane'.
4th positions are usually either going to be jungling or with the carry or roaming the map to attempt to get kills.
5th positions are usually with the first position protecting him in the early game.
What lanes they go to and who does what can change from game to game though, but these are very general guidelines.
lich and crystal maiden are very iconic 5th position heroes where wind-runner is great in the hard-lane and is a typical 3rd position although she has been seen utilized in the 4th position.
"Generic heroes" for the different positions:
1st:
Spoiler
Anti-mage
Luna
Drow ranger
Sniper
Juggernaut
Outworld Destroyer
2nd:
Spoiler
Queen of Pain
Invoker
Tinker
Templar assassin
Brewmaster
3rd:
Spoiler
Windrunner
Beast master
Dark seer
Lone druid
Bounty hunter
4th:
Spoiler
Enchantress
Chen
Enigma
Sand king
Undying
5th:
Spoiler
Crystal maiden
Lich
Vengeful spirit
Venomancer
Leshrac
@Chew; hopefully this will help with some basics. These two posts helped me understand a lot about the basics, the rest is just practicing and practicing. The list of heroes in the second post might be insightful but I bolded some because I find them incredibly hard to play, especially after watching you struggle micro'ing the courier. Try them out (bolded ones) but be cautious and patient because sometimes they're too much to take on.
I swear there was another post that explained the basics of each lane but there are already 55 pages in this thread and I don't feel like checking
But you can find really helpful stuff if you google. There are also plenty youtube videos around that are very informative and in case you feel like those aren't enough you can always post your questions here and Malthe, Dusk, IllegallySane or even I will help out as much as we can.
DotA is composed of 3 lanes which people will utilize to gain both experience and gold.
We have the short lanes, the mid lane and the long lanes.
The short lane(Safe lane) are for the dire the top lane and for radiant the bottom lane.
Short lanes are known for having the creeps meet close to your own tower and having access to easy creep-pulling, keeping the lane forever in your favor, theoretically.
They also have your own jungle next to you, allowing junglers(if you have one) to support said lane with ganks.
The mid is the same for both teams.
The mid is known for being a lane where rune-control and experience matters more than any other lane, small advantages in this lane can snowball into kills on your opponent, this is why creep-blocking is important(Can get you to level 3 before your opponent does, theoretically).
The long lane(Hard lane) is the top for the radiant and for the dire the bottom lane.
They are known for having the creeps meet far away from your tower, creating a risky lane for yourself where you are vulnerable. They also have the enemy jungle near them, further increasing the risks of this lane.
Last hitting and denying:
Getting gold and experience is essential for a team and the easiest way to achieve this is from getting last hits.
Last hitting a creep is probably the most important skill in DotA, it comes from taking your time and then attacking a creep when you know that your attack will be the killing blow, in most lanes you have a 'farming' hero that will have the priority and be allowed to take the last hits, as it is ineffecient to have two players fight for last hits.
But of course it's not this simple, you will not only fight your own judgement regarding when to attack, in DotA we also have the concept of denying, which is very simply put killing off your own units so your enemy does not recieve any gold and reduced experience.
Melee heroes are not punished as heavily as ranged heroes when it comes to the reduced experience from denied units, to make up for the fact that they are melee.
Denying isn't important just for preventing the enemy from getting experience, being able to attack your own units when they are sub 50% HP allows you to hold the creep waves at an equilibrium near your own tower, thus giving you safe farm.
Creep pulling and stacking:
Creep pulling is the act of making your allies creeps fight the creeps in the jungle by aggroing jungle creeps and having them aggro your lane creeps. Thus denying your opponent of gold and experience whilst allowing a support to last hit jungle creeps for extra farm that would normally not be available to the support.
This is mostly done at the medium size camps near the short-lanes, but just pulling is not very effecient because a creep wave is stronger than a medium sized creep camp and they will eventually just return to the lane and push it in the favor of your opponent.
So how do we solve this?
With stacking, units in the jungle in DotA will respawn at their camps at X:00 outside of the first spawn timer which is 0:30.
They will only respawn if there are no other units near the camp, and thus, aggroing the creeps in the camp and pulling them away from their camps at the right timing will stack the camp, allowing for 2 set of medium-sized creeps in the jungle, this stack will be enough to kill an entire creep-wave.
Stacking can also be utilized by supports to stack big camps and ancient camps for a carry to farm later for increased gold-income.
Oh dear god, Limited Heroes is soooo bad. I feel like I'm in a mix of LoL solo queue/Low Priority. Bounty Hunter with Battlefury, Vengeful Spirit building a Desolator. Bottom team of Drow + Bounty fed Sand King so hard he got a fast Blink Dagger with his 5-0. Add in smack from both sides talking about how their team's so bad.
Oh, add in another game where Sand King used Sandstorm really often. He thinks he's immune from everything while in the Sandstorm. I've finally won a game with Tidehunter, although that's sort of a hollow victory. The MVP was a Warlock who built a Scepter for that wonderful double golem pubstomp.
Conclusion: Try not to play passive/hard supports in Limited Heroes. More aggressive plays are better rewarded due to how often the enemy + your teammates can overreach. Wards are still important. Otherwise, trying to adhere to the hard current metagame stlye in these Limited Heroes games will only lead to a bad time.
Tip: If your team has lots of compendium people, you're going to have a good time. If not... don't expect an particularly enjoyable game.
IllegallySane Wrote:Oh dear god, Limited Heroes is soooo bad. I feel like I'm in a mix of LoL solo queue/Low Priority. Bounty Hunter with Battlefury, Vengeful Spirit building a Desolator. Bottom team of Drow + Bounty fed Sand King so hard he got a fast Blink Dagger with his 5-0. Add in smack from both sides talking about how their team's so bad.
Oh, add in another game where Sand King used Sandstorm really often. He thinks he's immune from everything while in the Sandstorm. I've finally won a game with Tidehunter, although that's sort of a hollow victory. The MVP was a Warlock who built a Scepter for that wonderful double golem pubstomp.
Conclusion: Try not to play passive/hard supports in Limited Heroes. More aggressive plays are better rewarded due to how often the enemy + your teammates can overreach. Wards are still important. Otherwise, trying to adhere to the hard current metagame stlye in these Limited Heroes games will only lead to a bad time.
Tip: If your team has lots of compendium people, you're going to have a good time. If not... don't expect an particularly enjoyable game.
Tutorial stuff? I'm loving semi-carry windrunner. She's really fun as support and with more farm she's just awesome.
Other than that I've seen pro players and even pub players own with Heroes that are usually support but farm. The one I remember the most was a Vengeful Spirit that went mid and just destroyed, at 10 mins she had some kills and the tower was already dropping low. Or Team Liquid's Korok (iirc) in a game where his team was 5 support heroes. I've yet to try it out but it shouldn't be as bad as you put it.
IllegallySane Wrote:Conclusion: Try not to play passive/hard supports in Limited Heroes. More aggressive plays are better rewarded due to how often the enemy + your teammates can overreach. Wards are still important. Otherwise, trying to adhere to the hard current metagame stlye in these Limited Heroes games will only lead to a bad time.
I'm really confused about this statement. Supports are the ones that are free to be aggressive and gank early game. Unless if you're playing someone like KotL.
Dusk Wrote:I'm really confused about this statement. Supports are the ones that are free to be aggressive and gank early game. Unless if you're playing someone like KotL.
I didn't notice but you're right, I wasn't reading IllegallySane post carefully. I don't think there are passive supports in the pool. Sven, Vengeful, Tide Hunter, Sand King, Wind Runner, Warlock, Lion and Lich. Omni is the only exception, but he enables aggressiveness. Even the carries are all for fighting since very early. I think the hero pool is quite nice, since it's meant for beginners, and other than Viper I think they're all pretty straight forward.
Also, I don't see why a semi carry Vengeful Spirit wouldn't build Desolator...
When i played WC3 dota i didn't do anything but carry VS
It's not super effective though but her attack projectile was too funny to not play her as a carry.
Dusk Wrote:I'm really confused about this statement. Supports are the ones that are free to be aggressive and gank early game. Unless if you're playing someone like KotL.
Oh? I tend to play way more passively with supports. So say the moment the fleeing hero is within his tower range if it takes more than one hit to kill him, I let him retreat back to base. The only real time I manage to be regularly aggressive is with Crystal Maiden since she has such a huge supply of mana.
What I meant was don't try to play super safe, expecting that the moment you overreach that you'll die. At least when I played Tidehunter, I many so many kills just by being super aggressive at times that were plain suicidal. I even scored a first blood for me and my lane partner even though I had 8 HP afterwards. Many times I'd Blink in and Ravage, die, but score many kills for my team. That's what I mean about don't play passively in Limited Heroes mode.
And of course for the hard support statement don't just be the ward b'itch. Other than the rune spot(s) the wards I tried to put down didn't really get used that well.
Chew Wrote:First battle first won
YAY
That's a... custom build? I made for Warlock.
Well done. It's not really custom but limited hero pool with just new player friendly heroes.
When building items is better to start little by little, so that you have stuff throughout the game.
Usually, and depending on lane, you start with Tangoes, a salve or two and 3+ branches depending on what you need. What this provide is a lot of regen so that you can stay in lane as long as possible. The branches give you stats that help with last hitting during early game. Building boots after that is a must because it gives you speed needed to either chase or escape. You don't need to buy power treds/mana boots/ tranquil boots right away, you could start with just Boots of Speed, get some other items and upgrade later. Also, having one TP scroll at all times is a must.
For 35min game your last hits are ok. Much much better than what I used to get when I was just starting. What helped me improve last hitting a whole lot was turning auto attacks off.
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