Tropes vs Women in Video Gaming - Damsel in Distress

i think the backlash isn't only because she's "unfairly ignoring examples where it doesn't happen", but because she's treating it like it's -all- that happens.

I don't quite get that vibe from her. Or maybe I'm just optimistic with Part 2?

my point against anita, is that she complains only about the female ones and with bad examples at that. and she's complaining about tropes* which are ALL overused, both against girls and men.

To me, the general backlash usually goes one of two ways:

1) People believe she's trying to make all games super politically correct and make all games "unfun" [apparently making fun of minorities is fun?]. It's more like adding diversity. You folks can get the games you want, while I'd like to get some games that don't alienate me.

2) A lot of times, when minorities try to talk about their problems, the majority group try to either tell them "I see no problem, so you shouldn't have a problem" or they complain about their own problems.

Yes, there are problems with the portrayal of men in a lot of video games as well. But a common occurrence is men talking about their problems only when women do and trying to talk over them as well.

I don't quite get that vibe from her. Or maybe I'm just optimistic with Part 2?To me, the general backlash usually goes one of two ways:

1) People believe she's trying to make all games super politically correct and make all games "unfun" [apparently making fun of minorities is fun?]. It's more like adding diversity. You folks can get the games you want, while I'd like to get some games that don't alienate me.

2) A lot of times, when minorities try to talk about their problems, the majority group try to either tell them "I see no problem, so you shouldn't have a problem" or they complain about their own problems.

Yes, there are problems with the portrayal of men in a lot of video games as well. But a common occurrence is men talking about their problems only when women do and trying to talk over them as well.

i guess i can't get over the fact that she called peach and zelda "a ball, an object to be claimed back and forth between two men" when really, they are so much more than that ._.

1) People believe she's trying to make all games super politically correct and make all games "unfun" [apparently making fun of minorities is fun?]. It's more like adding diversity. You folks can get the games you want, while I'd like to get some games that don't alienate me.

2) A lot of times, when minorities try to talk about their problems, the majority group try to either tell them "I see no problem, so you shouldn't have a problem" or they complain about their own problems.

Yes, there are problems with the portrayal of men in a lot of video games as well. But a common occurrence is men talking about their problems only when women do and trying to talk over them as well.

My personal perspective on this it's heavily exaggerated using something like the mainstream media as a basis. I find this pretty silly concerning the entire mainstream media, exaggerates, adverties and misrepresents every goddamn race/stereotype under the sun. Even as a white guy, I'm either a, pothead, a business man, a player, or a douche.

I think character/armor design is pretty equal.

The guys are either hunks or they're uber macho-buff. Then the girls are elegant or sexy.

Both the uber macho-buff men and scantily-clad female designs are made for straight men though. Almost every gaming hunk out there is a nerd fantasy for a male audience. They are not meant for female gamers. Plus I don't really see how a muscular guy in a tight shirt--or even no shirt--is the same as a large-breasted woman in a sexy revealing leather outfit.

Plus I don't really see how a muscular guy in a tight shirt--or even no shirt--is the same as a large-breasted woman in a sexy revealing leather outfit.

Why not?

They are not meant for female gamers.

Says who exactly?

"And not just mobile DS games, I'm talking full on console adventures"

What does she have against handhelds? They can be just as fun as console games. Give them some love too

Eh, A lot of fanservicey males in video games are accidental.

Highly unlikely. The bigger developers are well aware of what they do and what the potential outcome is.

Eh. She focused so much on Nintendo (the gaming industry's recycle machine) that If it weren't because I acknowledge the existence of the trope (and how tired I am of it(not necessarily due to overexposure through gaming)) I would've dismissed her completely.

I mean seriously, do you really expect a Mario game to be of anything else other than jumping over bottomless holes and rescuing the princess because-the game must eventually end? If anything, I would accuse Shigeru Miyamoto of being the laziest motherpineappleer to have ever become so rich on planet earth (PS: jokeish-exaggeration).

Also, a bunch of games featured had the gameplay and story equivalent of Tetris. (Double Dragon? lol - And that unknown Madonna was kidnapped by skinheads game? Surely you can do better than that.)

Anyway, right now I'm trying to put a list of games featuring the damsel in distress shenanigans and I'm coming up surprisingly short.
On the other hand, I can name games featuring the "Planet in distress" trope without even thinking about it. haha.


Hopefully she does better on other videos because right now, I thought the way she handled this theme was rather weak. And a big part of it was due to her focus on a very small portion of the gaming franchise. The quantity and quality of the examples really do matter when trying to make a point.

Also. Someone burn that shirt on my unspoken Ad hominem flames. And those earrings.

You folks can get the games you want, while I'd like to get some games that don't alienate me.

Half-Life series, Minecraft, The Binding of Isaac, Portal series, Left 4 Dead series, Scribblenauts.

Those ones just came out of my head, and I'm pretty sure there's maaaaany more out there. I didn't need a 160k$ budget for that.

@nikki: oh god, the comments are turning large again ._.

1 and 2) it's the first in a series, but the titles i saw for the rest of the series doesn't seem like they would make the situation improve.
and dunno, she can make videos as long as she wants, but better to have a long vidoe that explains everything, than a short video that, assumming it's just everyone misunderstanding her, causes this sort of misunderstandings.

3) tropes being overused isn't a reason to complain about them, you can't have a trope-less story, tropes are little things that always are in a story, the hero, the mcguffin, the kind of plot, you can't say that because it's overused it's bad

4) on the video she DOES compare peach and zelda to the ball, she says so herself, you can't say "That's not quite what she's saying." because that's quite literally what she said.

and i dunno where "here" is for you, but over here, women don't get bugged into marriage any more than men, in fact, any marriage talk any of me and my friends have ever had (of both sexes) was all the marriage talk we ever had, besides the classic "find someone that makes you happy, don't settle, etc etc"

as for that hacked DK news, that's, as always, the extremists and nutjobs being overly vocal, and those exist on every side. which is something i don't condone either, people may dislike and disagree with anita's video all they want, but calling her a dumbass feminist that deserves to die? yea, that's not a decent man/woman behind the screen.

Holy pomegranate I don't know how I missed this thread a few days ago and playing catch-up is killing me. I spent the past hour watching the video and reading as much as I could, but I only made it through the 4th page. So pausing my progress now to comment on a few posts before going to bed.

I am stating that victims of any kind of distress (robbery, domestic violence, kidnapped by giant gorilla) are more likely to be female because of the biological differences between women and men.

Jesus this sentence is loaded with ignorance and contradiction. Ignorance in ignoring same-sex and husband abuse, and contradictory with your robbery comment. By your patriarchal logic men should have more money and valuables as they're the providers to women, and thus should be the targets of robbers. Unless all robbers in your world are idiots.

Peach has been making that ugly fat little plumber go through the same ordeal over and over and over again for what, 30 years now? If that is not power I do not know what is.

Except she has not been "making" him do anything, because she is not asking to be kidnapped. Like duh.

The media is incredibly shallow and obtuse, which is precisely why people like it. Attacking a media like video games is like pointing at a five year old who committed a misdeed and stating that this is indicative of how our culture is declining or remaining at a troubling impasse. Video games feature moments we will never experience or simply have such as rescuing a princess or whatever damsel in distress. I'm not expecting some realistic Private Eye Detective game where I'm digging into social stereotypes, I'm fighting a talking dragon that spits fire out of his mouth and the rest of his smaller kin. Yes, video games are base. Seriously, that's why we like them. Do I want Yuna in a snow-coat? No. That would make an unbearable game even more unbearable. (I'll debate expanding on this when I get back).

The caveat to your argument, as I'm surprised didn't apparently occur to you before writing it, is the simple fact that the average consumer of mainstream entertainment media is incredibly stupid and unable of such perspective. Especially when the racism/sexism/homophobia isn't outright stated, but subtly built into the plot or premise of games time and time again (ex., the need to save the helpless female in distress), the fools that sadly comprise much of our world are unable to distinguish that characteristic from actual women, viewing them as helplessness, weak, and a needing to be saved via characteristic association.

oh god here we go again.

Except she has not been "making" him do anything, because she is not asking to be kidnapped. Like duh.

That, my friend, is entirely a matter of perspective.

Except she has not been "making" him do anything, because she is not asking to be kidnapped. Like duh.

I like the theory that Mario, Browser and Peach are all "actors" in a "play" that has been going on for 30+ years.


[video=youtube;e_xbSMK390s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_xbSMK390s[/video]

@nikki: oh god, the comments are turning large again ._.

Yep. I have a lot to say. You should just be happy I barely post, play in IRC and lurk almost everywhere else.

1 and 2) it's the first in a series, but the titles i saw for the rest of the series doesn't seem like they would make the situation improve.
and dunno, she can make videos as long as she wants, but better to have a long vidoe that explains everything, than a short video that, assumming it's just everyone misunderstanding her, causes this sort of misunderstandings.

The point is that the rest of the videos are going to address a lot of different tropes. The main problem I'm seeing is that people are neglecting the fact it's a multi-part series on different tropes that specifically affect women (because that's the group of people she's focusing on). Considering she's already said there will be multiple parts, and it's pretty obvious because the movie's title includes "Part 1" in it (meaning that, unless she's Mel Brooks, there is going to be a second part). I don't see how she (or anyone) can make this any clearer that she's not going to say "Women can only be damsels," which is what a lot of people are so stubbornly fighting against. No one has said that, and it's already clear. They have the information in front of them and are wilfully neglecting it.

Also, she's already said she'll be addressing characters where they've "flipped the script" in the next one. And the final videos appeal to deal with positives and future advice. You can't offer those without having first pointed out what's wrong. I'm still failing to see what's "wrong" here.

3) tropes being overused isn't a reason to complain about them, you can't have a trope-less story, tropes are little things that always are in a story, the hero, the mcguffin, the kind of plot, you can't say that because it's overused it's bad

Considering I've also written a response to this elsewhere, I'm copying it to avoid writing it again. And it may repeat something I've already said.

It’s not always a bad plot device to have someone in distress, to have a hero who wants to save someone who is in trouble. It’s the way the treatment of the characters is handled or how the characterisation of that distressed person is neglected. Another issue is that when a damsel goes through the capture, the story does not belong to her; it belongs to the hero. We see how it affects them, and we are rarely privy to any information as to how the detainment has affected the detainee. It merely becomes an “oh, thank you” and everyone continues on their merry way. That’s what makes it problematic.

It's bad because it's overused and inaccurate; it's bad because of the subtlety of media on our society. And I'm not saying "this trope causes men to treat women badly;" it's not a direct causation, but it is a correlation in terms of how women are continued to be treated in other areas of society. And I'm sure that the more we see alternatives to this trope (and many others), the more comfortable groups of people are going to feel. The more you see alternatives, the more you're going to get characters that you can identify with in terms of personality and strength. You don't change things by ignoring them, and you can't make people aware of these problems if you say nothing.

The problem with all tropes is that they're overused and they seep into our subconscious. We unknowingly have biases that we don't even recognise because it is so subtle. If you see something enough, you start to believe it. That even applies if you only see it on television or in movies.

So what would be different if we lessened the use of the one where men are supposed to be like sturdy trees, strong and emotionless? What if we stopped marketing things to boys and men on a basis of violent activities (see almost every boys' toy commercial) and sex (see a lot of adult fragrances)? Just like women are tired of the constant misuse of female stereotypes, I'm sure there are some men who are just as sick of theirs. And you're telling me we shouldn't complain about overused tropes? Sorry, that's a hard pill to swallow.

and i dunno where "here" is for you, but over here, women don't get bugged into marriage any more than men, in fact, any marriage talk any of me and my friends have ever had (of both sexes) was all the marriage talk we ever had, besides the classic "find someone that makes you happy, don't settle, etc etc"

I grew up in Illinois, I lived in Kentucky, I lived in California, and I've since moved to Australia. In Illinois, my mother was the only person not putting pressure on me to find any guy and marry him; in fact, she advised me against it. Instead, I had to battle pressure from my just-out-of-high school "friends" to things like not marrying the guy I was dating at the time (who I later broke up with) and to finding someone and just getting married already. In Kentucky, I had girls putting pressure on me to get married because it was "weird" that I was single; it was odd to have Single Me around all their coupled friends at parties, as if I had no value because I hadn't a husband. In California, my ex-fiance's mother was the only person seriously asking me to think about what I was doing (and thinking about me); his paternal family put more pressure on me to just do it instead of waiting. The moment I put on the engagement ring, everyone asked me about my fiance. Most people stopped caring about me, but they wanted to know more about my connection to him.

Now that I'm in Australia? I moved here and started dating someone (who was more than a bit questionable and treated me like an object). My "friends" knew about this, and many of them told me to just "work with him" because "I wasn't getting any younger." They told me to put up with his excessively abusive nonsense for the sake of the fact that no one could love or marry someone as "old" as me. (And before you say to "leave him," I did quite awhile ago. And I stopped talking to those people. All of them. In every area.)

Now, I'm not saying it's been everyone. But I know that, for a fact, women receive this treatment far more frequently than men do. There are still people out there who relate us to who our husbands are, and they still see us as awkward if we're unmarried. Many people don't understand how to handle a woman who doesn't want to get married! People can't fathom a woman who doesn't want children! We get yelled at by crazy lunatics if we don't want to or are physically incapable of breastfeeding. I've seen these things personally; I've watched people I know go through them. I've cried about this nonsense with these same people, and we hate it. We're more often defined by our relationship to someone else (more frequently to our significant other or children) than we are in terms of our own merit.

And I'm not saying this hasn't been changing, but it still happens. We still go through it at a much higher frequency than we ever should have to. And every single one of these instances where someone is acknowledging us only in terms of our relationship to another human being is a form of objectification.

as for that hacked DK news, that's, as always, the extremists and nutjobs being overly vocal, and those exist on every side. which is something i don't condone either, people may dislike and disagree with anita's video all they want, but calling her a dumbass feminist that deserves to die? yea, that's not a decent man/woman behind the screen.

You're right, it's not decent. These people are disgusting, but if it was one or two? I'm sure it wouldn't have even blipped too hard on this father's radar. He would've just shrugged it off without even considering the sentiments as being more than a handful of morons. And even if this is the internet and people troll hard, look at the numbers of people doing it; it's disgustingly huge. And I know they're extremists, but even the minor comments that are found on the articles about him have been disgusting or annoying.

He changes the game to make his daughter happy, and some guy comes in commenting on one of the many articles with a tasteless joke about "teaching her to change tyres" (which is one of the most minor infractions). You know, because there are no women in this world who can do that. Clearly we all hate cars and everything to do with them, and we have no idea how to fix anything on them. (Except, hi, I do exist.) And that is a good example of why these tropes need to stop being the basis for a vast majority of stories.

[MENTION=248]nikki[/MENTION]; the idiots are always the loudest, it's all i can say about the father video, and about the marriage thing, that's just your "friends" who apparently, were trying to grow up too fast, as you said, your mother was the one that gave you the most sensible explanation, and what can i say, about that breastfeeding, don't want marriage topic, now those are some legitimate complaints although for me (and this is probably because of how i am) dumbnuts who think they know how i should live my life get none of my time nor patience. if i were a woman i'm sure i'd be called a peach over that (worst i've gotten is pimento) but eeh, dumb words on deaf ears.

one thing though, when you're getting married, it's a bit step not only for you, but for your friends too, they want to get to know the guy, after all, you'll be living with that guy from now on, they should want to be on good terms with him. i have a friend (one of the -very- few good ones i have) who is madly in love with a gal, and i have barely even seen a picture of her, i'd like to get to know her better you know? not saying it's the same for your friends, but it's a possibility.

i don't know if it's because of where i grew or not, but the fact that i hear such a massive outcry from women in the US about how they're treated as objects or feel they're objectified, it certainly surprises me.

i'm waiting for part two, just to see how that goes, but eeh, can't honestly say i'm anxiously waiting for it or something of the sort.

and again, it's not that tropes were made, and then stories came, it's that stories were made, and from them people started picking stuff that repeated itself, there's tropes for all points in the spectrum, if you have a story of a town where the girls are as pure as they can be, you get "All Women Are Prudes" then next town they're all skanks, "All Women Are Lustful" notice how both tropes start with "all", my point, as stated by tvtropes themselves, here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ad...sTooCommon

Plots, Characters, and Conflict are tropes, and literally no proper story can be told without them (whatever form they take). That means that, by necessity, they have 100% use on any work that tells a story. If those aren't too common, then no other trope can be too common.

the problem is when the trope is sexist, not when something is a trope and by extension when a trope is used a lot, because pretty much everything is a trope. and personally i love tropes like "the dragon" "xanatos gambit" and such.

I like the theory that Mario, Browser and Peach are all "actors" in a "play" that has been going on for 30+ years.

[video=youtube;ZI-ol25RFws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-ol25RFws[/video]