Tropes vs Women in Video Gaming - Damsel in Distress

You know why I consider the Zelda lore as not fitting here?

If you know the story, you know it's an event predestined to happen over and over. And no, it's not the kidnapping, it's the fact that the triforce will attempt to be whole again. By having its three parts meet over and over. Know why Ganon never kidnaps Link? He has the master sword, the weapon for the courage part, that can kill him in direct combat. So he'll attempt to delay that as much as possible. Since Ganon itself already has the power part, there's only one left: Wisdom.

If there's no Ganon, most of the times there's no Zelda, and therefore, no kidnapping. Link to the past, Majora's Mask...

No, it's not a series revolving around the kidnapping.

[video=youtube;AQnIJ-ljctk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnIJ-ljctk[/video]

With SCII: Heart of the Swarm coming out soon, I really hope she doesn't classify Kerrigan as part of the whole Sexy Villainess group...

With SCII: Heart of the Swarm coming out soon, I really hope she doesn't classify Kerrigan as part of the whole Sexy Villainess group...

i'd be more scared than "mad" if that happened honestly...

Because she's not even trying to give a balanced argument. She claims Zelda games treat Zelda as a prize or goal, and then uses the 3d zelda games as examples.
But at best that's not the whole story and at worst that's downright lying. It never has anything to do with Zelda being female: In wind waker, they leave her under the ocean to protect the triforce of wisdom. In skyward sword, zelda is literally the worlds god. In ocarina she spends the entire game helping undermine ganondorf.

The fact that she didn't even mention Midna is a downright travesty: A playable Female Character in zelda that does all the things she accuses zelda games of doing wrong, including rescuing link when he is kidnapped and unable to do it himself, and is the main character of the game, not link.

Not to mention most incarnations of link are deliberately as androgynous as possible.

THANK YOU.

Jesus Christ these types of posts always know how to rustle my jimmies.

I think that at this point I'll have to see part 2 to judge if it might even be worth continuing or I should just dismiss the rest of the videos. I'm leaning towards the latter though since the videos are long and I can think of more blatantly offensive tropes to criticize.

I think that at this point I'll have to see part 2 to judge if it might even be worth continuing or I should just dismiss the rest of the videos. I'm leaning towards the latter though since the videos are long and I can think of more blatantly offensive tropes to criticize.

something i'd like to see her criticize is female armor in most games, although that lately seems to be dying too.

something i'd like to see her criticize is female armor in most games, although that lately seems to be dying too.

Yeah, the most offensive example I can think of (The third Parasite Eve game) is a pretty old example so I'd prefer to see if she had criticism on an aspect that's still present in contemporary games.

Yeah, the most offensive example I can think of (The third Parasite Eve game) is a pretty old example so I'd prefer to see if she had criticism on an aspect that's still present in contemporary games.

have you seen dragon nest witch armor? the beginner armor covers more than almost anything else lol.

the resident loli is well dressed at least, and archers are kind of in-between that's a pretty short skirt though

something i'd like to see her criticize is female armor in most games, although that lately seems to be dying too.

More than likely she's going to cover it under the topics of #3 The Sexy Sidekick and #4 The Sexy Villainess. There are more than enough tropes (and stereotypes) in entertainment that pick up on the hypersexualisation of women, so it's more than likely become a topic she addresses in the future.

Note: This hypersexualisation can also be addressed in terms of how women are addressed or talked to.

have you seen dragon nest witch armor? the beginner armor covers more than almost anything else lol.

the resident loli is well dressed at least, and archers are kind of in-between that's a pretty short skirt though

Oh, that's an example of the things I find to be annoying about online games particularly as there's a major difference between being Stripperrific for a while and being the same thing for hundreds if not thousands of gameplay hours.

More than likely she's going to cover it under the topics of #3 The Sexy Sidekick and #4 The Sexy Villainess. There are more than enough tropes (and stereotypes) in entertainment that pick up on the hypersexualisation of women, so it's more than likely become a topic she addresses in the future.

Note: This hypersexualisation can also be addressed in terms of how women are addressed or talked to.

might be, but i have quite the feeling that will unlock a MASSIVE can of worms when she makes the video.

might be, but i have quite the feeling that will unlock a MASSIVE can of worms when she makes the video.

To be fair, while I think there will be an impact, I don't think there will be an increased amount of outcry over the topic of What Women Wear in video games. We all know it, we all see it, and I think a lot of people have already picked on this a lot. What Women Wear has already been a core argument for why women should be treated better at cons (because they're dressing up as 'sexy' characters who they love, but they receive a lot of negative attention from men for either being 'fake' geeks or just wanting to wander about scantily clad around a bunch of 'ugly nerds' -- I think, or hope, that we can see why this is a bad argument from multiple perspectives). It's been a major reason why the Hawkeye Initiative (linked earlier) has been occurring, too.

Also, this isn't directed at you, but it's directed at everyone who continues to try to invalidate something being a Damsel in Distress without understanding what the trope is at its core and how it can be used in conjunction with other literary devices.

People are more likely to cry about the Damsel in Distress trope because she's "unfairly ignoring examples where it doesn't happen" (and yes, there are exceptions to the rule -- that's why they're called exceptions; there are also different stereotypes to address, and you can't address them when you're talking about a particular one in a series), but they also aren't willing to understand what it is at its core and how it's used as a literary device . I posted this somewhere else (and I'm not going to link it here; I'll let that slide for someone else to do/find, if they wish), and I'm posting it here for the sake of simplicity in explanations (and not having to write it all over again). I'll mark the text in the same way that I did in its previous location:

So for the tl;dr version of this entire post: Damsel in distress is an overused literary device that strips some or all of the power from a young female character by detaining her physically, psychologically or through a curse/possession. Her story is not her own and belongs to the hero as a means to progress his story. It is not something that a character is, but it is something that happens to a character; just because you’re a strong character at Point A of the story doesn’t mean you can’t be damseled in Point Z. It also doesn’t preclude you from helping the hero in some fashion. The problem is not that it exists but how it is represented and the frequency of those representations.

That's what I've been fighting against repeatedly when people pull other examples. Just because you have some examples of something doesn't invalidate it from falling under the literary device. Just because a character is strong at the beginning of the story doesn't mean she can't be turned into a damsel at another point of time; just because we know Zelda's going to be kidnapped in advance to further progress toward the Tri-Force doesn't mean she hasn't been damseled. And it's those small bits of story that keep people from seeing this. Those other aspects are parts of other literary devices; it doesn't mean that one literary device works by itself all the time. It works with others to create a story, whether or not it's adequately written.

If a damsell is all the character is then I agree this view might be relevant, but as you say yourself, there is more often than not more to her than that, which in turn takes some of the thunder away from the issue. It is not simply to be dissmissed as part of other litterary devices by default, it is way too simple and conveinient do to that.
I can honestly say that I have played as many games where a male character gets turned useless and in need of aid as I have where a female is, so I do not really see the problem. Even if the concept is overused, it doubt that it fosters generations of people that sees women as useless damsells, because we also understand that it is situational and could very well happen to males too. And if the stereotype is toothless, well then what the heck is the fuzz about? All it is then is an invitation to game producers to see that we would like to see more female heroes, a trend that has been going for a decade already.

To be fair, while I think there will be an impact, I don't think there will be an increased amount of outcry over the topic of What Women Wear in video games. We all know it, we all see it, and I think a lot of people have already picked on this a lot. What Women Wear has already been a core argument for why women should be treated better at cons (because they're dressing up as 'sexy' characters who they love, but they receive a lot of negative attention from men for either being 'fake' geeks or just wanting to wander about scantily clad around a bunch of 'ugly nerds' -- I think, or hope, that we can see why this is a bad argument from multiple perspectives). It's been a major reason why the Hawkeye Initiative (linked earlier) has been occurring, too.

Also, this isn't directed at you, but it's directed at everyone who continues to try to invalidate something being a Damsel in Distress without understanding what the trope is at its core and how it can be used in conjunction with other literary devices.

People are more likely to cry about the Damsel in Distress trope because she's "unfairly ignoring examples where it doesn't happen" (and yes, there are exceptions to the rule -- that's why they're called exceptions; there are also different stereotypes to address, and you can't address them when you're talking about a particular one in a series), but they also aren't willing to understand what it is at its core and how it's used as a literary device . I posted this somewhere else (and I'm not going to link it here; I'll let that slide for someone else to do/find, if they wish), and I'm posting it here for the sake of simplicity in explanations (and not having to write it all over again). I'll mark the text in the same way that I did in its previous location:



That's what I've been fighting against repeatedly when people pull other examples. Just because you have some examples of something doesn't invalidate it from falling under the literary device. Just because a character is strong at the beginning of the story doesn't mean she can't be turned into a damsel at another point of time; just because we know Zelda's going to be kidnapped in advance to further progress toward the Tri-Force doesn't mean she hasn't been damseled. And it's those small bits of story that keep people from seeing this. Those other aspects are parts of other literary devices; it doesn't mean that one literary device works by itself all the time. It works with others to create a story, whether or not it's adequately written.

i think the backlash isn't only because she's "unfairly ignoring examples where it doesn't happen", but because she's treating it like it's -all- that happens.

it's a trope, that means it's used often, and it's a trope that "weakens" women mainly, but for that trope, there's also other tropes for men where they are "weakened", or forced/expected to do things, because they're "men"

i'll just leave this here, it works for pretty much everything

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...leStandard

my point against anita, is that she complains only about the female ones and with bad examples at that. and she's complaining about tropes* which are ALL overused, both against girls and men. i'm sure nobody here sees peach or zelda as "a ball" or "an object to be reclaimed" heck, in fact when i was little my mind only thought of two things when peach was captured: "bowser, you're evil!, you don't kidnap people!" and "allright, let's play this game" i'm sure that at no point, and this goes for the men, women, everyone alike, anybody ever thought "i want MY peach back"

edit: just a quick add, but peach was as much of a ball, as "the president" was in bad dudes, they were just there so that you weren't mauling shrooms or people without a purpose. not as an object to be reclaimed, after all mushrom kingdom needs it's princess as much as the US needs it's president.

something i'd like to see her criticize is female armor in most games, although that lately seems to be dying too.

I think character/armor design is pretty equal.

The guys are either hunks or they're uber macho-buff. Then the girls are elegant or sexy.

I think character/armor design is pretty equal.

The guys are either hunks or they're uber macho-buff. Then the girls are elegant or sexy.

That is clearly not uniform in this context though, but I shall argue that it does not have to be to be equal.

I think character/armor design is pretty equal.

The guys are either hunks or they're uber macho-buff. Then the girls are elegant or sexy.

i should fix that, adress armor design in general. how many games have you seen that feature clothes for men like soul calibur does for voldo?

i actually quite like soul calibur for that, mainly the last release, it features a bit of everything, ivy as striperrific with large breasts, voldo... is voldo, many of the men are eye candy for the women, but there's also the others that don't really lose their armor, and are more peaceful by nature, there's hilde (a female) who is so covered in armor that you have to "break her armor" just to be able to see her face. and that's all you can see.

the game manages to have a bit of everything.

That's what I've been fighting against repeatedly when people pull other examples. Just because you have some examples of something doesn't invalidate it from falling under the literary device. Just because a character is strong at the beginning of the story doesn't mean she can't be turned into a damsel at another point of time; just because we know Zelda's going to be kidnapped in advance to further progress toward the Tri-Force doesn't mean she hasn't been damseled. And it's those small bits of story that keep people from seeing this. Those other aspects are parts of other literary devices; it doesn't mean that one literary device works by itself all the time. It works with others to create a story, whether or not it's adequately written.

True, but it's still not good to ignore examples from the same series that completely turn this trope over. I have my own subjective criteria for whether DiD is applicable or not which usually involves the character being made suddenly helpless for no good reason because over application of this trope would mean that you'd be seeing DiD at almost every situation and there's no point in discussing something that's as common as seeing clouds up in the sky.

From her examples, I'd count the early Double Dragon games and some of the Zelda games where Zelda exists to be pretty much nothing except the Princess in Distress along with the Star Fox since their only goal there is to provide motivation to the hero's story. Examples such as Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess should not count because Zelda's story there is intertwined with Link's story, they both serve to further progress the other's story and we pretty much establish that neither can succeed without the other.

Or as one might put it: I get captured once or twice and suddenly everyone's talking about me as if I'm a helpless damsel instead of a competent character in my own right that just happened to get captured because I was in the way of my story's goal and the other available character was effectively invincible at that time. Well excuse me, Anita!

oh hey, just putting this here, reading tvtropes double standard page:

"Damsel in Distress: If they exist only to be rescued, it's sexist. While it's more likely to happen to a woman, when it happens to a man it's to showcase how badass the Action Girl who goes to the rescue is. "