Tropes vs Women in Video Gaming - Damsel in Distress

Now, is this the fault of the Kickstarters or her?

Don't know much about Kickstarter, but something feels wrong when people would rather give up to $150k just to see videos of someone talking about female status in video games. I mean couldn't something like this have taken less than half the cost. Or even a quarter? Easily?

I mean couldn't something like this have taken less than half the cost. Or even a quarter? Easily?

For like 15k I am sure you could buy the best of everything when it comes to computer/video recording stuff/mics/etc. Which leaves a good 135k left for what exactly? She said something about expanding and making more videos, but if you already buy all the stuff you need to make those with the first 15k than the other 135k is like a labor cost I suppose.

@Lozmaster: partners in time has her future self kidnapped, however (spoilers)

 Spoiler

while in the past she sealed the shroob queen inside the cobalt star, and then broke it in all it's parts, then mario and luigi (and bowser) goof up and re-make the star much to peach's horror, releasing the final boss of the game

Ironically this ACTUALLY happens in Mario Galaxy. Typo included. I don't care if you edited it already, I'M HALF NINJA, remember?

Yeah... Luigi mode was weird, funniest thing in the game though, two luigis running around was great. Shame they made you have to play through every star twice to get 100% completion and the (mediocre) bonus level though.

This is what we're talking about just in case anyone is confused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmNWQ4bZNMk

First of all...that's pretty rude and somewhat silly. Second of all, her whole point of the video revolves around women being offended by the damsel in distress point in games. I felt that I being a woman should highlight the point that it's not really offensive considering it would be offensive to us, not men really.

Aside from what MariaColette already said, my comment was more to do with internalized misogyny. When other women say something like "women shouldn't be offended by something like this", it allows not only other women to feel like they shouldn't be offended, but it enables men to think and say the same things. They feel justified in what they say because a woman who should be offended by something isn't actually offended. And for some reason, in some men's minds, because some women aren't offended, they feel that all women shouldn't be offended.

This whole video series isn't offensive unless you twist it that way. It's supposed to try and open people's eyes to the negative portrayal of women in video games and see things from a different point of view. Video games are an interactive medium -- you can explore a lot of ideas that you can't with something like a movie. In order for video games to grow as an art form -- in order for people to take video games seriously -- stuff like this needs to be talked about and heard especially in the mainstream industry.

Aside from what MariaColette already said, my comment was more to do with internalized misogyny. When other women say something like "women shouldn't be offended by something like this", it allows not only other women to feel like they shouldn't be offended, but it enables men to think and say the same things. They feel justified in what they say because a woman who should be offended by something isn't actually offended. And for some reason, in some men's minds, because some women aren't offended, they feel that all women shouldn't be offended.

This whole video series isn't offensive unless you twist it that way. It's supposed to try and open people's eyes to the negative portrayal of women in video games and see things from a different point of view. Video games are an interactive medium -- you can explore a lot of ideas that you can't with something like a movie. In order for video games to grow as an art form -- in order for people to take video games seriously -- stuff like this needs to be talked about and heard especially in the mainstream industry.

But sitting around acting like we should care about what they say just makes men believe it more. If women sit around whining about "this is sexist or unfair to women" men just find the concept to be true. If all we can do is sit around pointing it out and complaining about it, that makes us seem weak. If it doesn't bother us, they can't really sit there thinking it actually has some sort of effect on us.

The point that's being made isn't that the idea itself (supporting characters being helpless) is bad, it's that women in video games are almost always put in this position. What's problematic is that all of the characters who are helpless and cannot do anything to change their situation are overwhelmingly female.

There is a major difference between "helpless men" and "helpless women," which is what creates the problematic Damsel in Distress. Male characters who are shown as helpless almost never suffer from the inability to not do something. Even in your prior example of "Mario is helpless," he isn't; he's still running about and trying to change the future outcome of events. He's not powerless, which is what the DiD trope is showing. The point of this trope, as she's said in the video, is that you strip power from a female character. It's not just a one-off, either; you can have examples of characters who were 'strong' but suddenly become Damsel'd in their own ways. Here's a good example of a horrible game story that did this: Final Fantasy VIII. Rinoa starts off fairly weak and is shown as consistently stupid/naive (Quistiss also falls prone to this despite being intelligent, since she gets demoted from her original position; Selphie's obviously bat pomegranate crazy, especially when it comes to trains). Rinoa, however, becomes possessed (strips Rinoa's powers away, Damseling her); she then falls into a coma (strips more power away from Rinoa). These two plot devices (badly) aid Squall's push to 'do something,' because he's looking for a way to save Rinoa (not that anyone will ever know why, since this is a problem of story continuity).

That's what the trope is about. Men generally don't have power stripped from them; they have options taken away, but they're "creative" enough to figure out a new way to solve their problem. Or they're still able to continue their journey and accidentally solve the issue. (Or, if it's a particularly bad storyteller, they forget it all together.) Women, on the other hand, lose their power when Damsel'd; these characters become helpless, useless, powerless and have no opportunities to change their own story. Their strife and struggles are shown as a changing element to the wrong person. In fact, they almost never have anything to say/feel about their detainment/capture. That's the difference.

I have a problem with the critque of the industry because for every individual example we're either dealing with :

-One's particular creation and self-developed concept developing organically. That happens to use the trope. (More likely to be indie titles)

Or

- The game is built with certain concepts and demographics in mind and built around that. (More likely to be the usual AAA title)

I don't believe what any particular demographic wants has anyyy business influencing a person's natural creativity. People forcing out characters and plot paths they're not actually interested in is only going to create something watered down and bad. Which is exactly what happened to Star Fox Adventures. I'm against Peach and Zelda ever being radically changed unless the actual writers behind their games get a truly inspired direction for such a game. I just believe people's characters are theirs, you try too hard and you end up with annoying, poorly written tokens. Criticizing people for their personal tastes in game ideas just seems controlling.

However, the idea of telling publishers what they SHOULD throw down their money and take a chance on, i'm all for that. I'd love for any publisher to ignore 'what sells' to take more chances on game ideas/studios with active female protagonists. Money is pretty much what causes all innovative stagnation in the industry. The video doesn't account for that fact and loses a lot of points there.

Here's the thing: that's precisely the issue, and why i feel focusing on media is a problem: we're trying to blow away the smoke, when its not the fire. The thing is, they are successful because they are a product of our culture, and not vice versa. More guys just find the idea of being able to take on all challenges without help interesting. More women find a self-reliant guy more intriguing, not neccessarily attractive, but more valued. So they sell better, and those sales influence what a publisher will back next.

It's not even just an issue of feminism alone when you really think about this contrast in distressed characters: Its also because of society's generalization of helpless men: a man too weak to try to fight out of a circumstance isn't intriguing. A man that helpless is considered a 'loser' and not interesting enough to be the inspiration of a journey. It's 'weird' for a guy to be helpless to both genders. Its a double edged issue: not only is this so prevalent because using a female is culturally convenient. Its because males are culturally less convenient for the role as well; writers naturally feel a compulsion to give a distressed male some sort of edge so he isn't a total wimp.

Rather than burn energy critiquing the reflection in the mirror. I can't help but feel that encouraging those who DO have inspired strong female protagonists is a far better solution than criticizing other's creative works, which may very well be characters they care about a lot, it may not be progressive, but dear to them.

Also, continuing to actively encourage strong females, either physically or in character in real life in a positive manner is going to have a ripple effect: Think about it; the more comfortable and prevalent the female bodybuilder or active teenage girl is, the more inspirations and influences future game designers are going to have for great female characters. Honestly, using the 150k to PROMOTE books and small independent films starring heroic girls would have been a much better use of money than a super-long critique against established series. Hands down.

They are out there, help them get known.

If we want a better balance in the distressed character of interest trope: then there additionally should be some effort to encourage acceptance of males beyond their strength and usefulness to make them more interesting distress characters. So far, like you said, the only trait beyond that, to make a male character intriguing to the general market is to make him smart. Why can't the emotional support they've shown the protagonist, male or female, be the value in attempting to save them? Females are still more convenient and versatile for the role. The solution really is to start adding value to other traits in men aside from being able to 'git er done'.

Basically: culture decides what sells, there are plenty of strong females in gaming: its not even that those game sell badly just that the traditional outsells it big time. Contribute and influence a more open minded culture and the media WILL reflect it.

Now, is this the fault of the Kickstarters or her?

Her fault. Once she meet her quota, which should of been a budget and not some numbers she quickly made in 30minutes, she should of stopped accepting the donations. But since throwing away money is stupid, she should accept it and then upscaled her project or invested into another feminist group that can out-put "good" media or invest in a different way to spread the word.

I really hope she explains somewhere where all the money was dictated. It would help improve her image if the money was spent on appropriate things.

Edit: [MENTION=5562]Seanny[/MENTION]; I totally agree. Criticizing stuff that's already out won't change anything. Especially if your base already knows pretty much the injustice that goes around. She needs to invest in people that are making mages that she thinks should be backed, and backs them.

If I was tasked to save a guy, what do I get in the end? Penis?! I DONT WANT PENIS GUYS.

Well I have 0 credibility to anyone who entitles herself as "feminist" and claim they want equal rights.
If they want equality right why not call herselves as "humanist" I mean we are all equal right?

Feminism also covers gender roles, homophobia, transgender issues, and probably many other issues as well. And why shouldn't people be involved with just one issue, especially when it's something that directly affects them? Men can be feminists as well; it's not a "girls only" club.

Feminism also covers gender roles, homophobia, transgender issues, and probably many other issues as well. And why shouldn't people be involved with just one issue, especially when it's something that directly affects them? Men can be feminists as well; it's not a "girls only" club.

That's just the thing: it IS a girls-only club, for a lot of the feminists out there. They think they're better than men; they're not fighting for female equality, they're fighting for female superiority.

That's just the thing: it IS a girls-only club, for a lot of the feminists out there. They think they're better than men; they're not fighting for female equality, they're fighting for female superiority.

and we've toldyou, that's not what the true feminism is, that's going radical. think PETA.

Before I begin with wall of text, I have to say this in jest: J2, prepare to #cutforbieber. You're lucky I cram everything into one post, I swear.

ALSO before I continue: I run into a lot of areas where we have to take into consideration other stereotypes of females in games (and even other people). The DiD isn't the only one (which I tried to focus on), but women in entertainment are constantly subjected to other areas. I also mention other groups who fall prey to similar stereotyping issues (poor people, people of colour). It's hard to address only one of these, especially when all of them are so prevalent.

Now to continue. Also, I'm sorry for length. Not for anything else.

Isn't that already achieved?
The origin of feminism was to get some privilegede WHITE women to vote.
Feminism is not what it was.

Furthermore:
I have nothing against feminism, they are doing GREAT things specially in middle-east countries where the woman is still treated as an object.
But still, the media and west society has twisted this term SO MUCH that at least to me there's no way I can support this movement on this continent.

 Spoiler

Because I just saw this comment.

What's funny is that Anita's actually addressed this in the past with the visions of what the media shows as 'being feminist.' Feminists are bad. But strong female characters who distance themselves from these crazy people who are seeking equal rights are good. It's called the 'Straw Feminist' trope; it happens all the time, and girls still do this in every day life. ("I support equality for women... But I'm not a feminist." -- Except, by definition, you are.) It's something that I've seen even before I saw her video on it, and it doesn't even need to be her saying it; it could be any other woman (or person), like Tina Fey and Amy Poehler (who have both pointed this out a number of times).
That's also why the media focuses on the extremists; they make it so easy to point out why "feminism is bad," when the fact is that feminism is good. Equal rights for members of society? Yeah, there's nothing bad about that (unless you're making your living and generating your power from systematically oppressing a group of people).

No, feminism is still going because women still lack equality in nearly every facet of society. Everything from our advertising campaigns to children (watch boy vs girl toy commercials and have fun with that one), women's pay inequality (so we get less income for the same job), and a lot of other topics surrounding women's rights. It's not about denying that there are bad things about society for men (such as when parents divorce, almost every court grants custody to the woman without securing proper evidence of who the best parent is); there are a lot of negative stereotypes about men that should be addressed, too. The fact is that men (and as much as I hate putting this phrase out there, the white-straight-men -- the unfortunate part is that this group of people get turned into the villain, and I hate that just as much as I hate discrimination) aren't having the power removed from them.

for that final fantasy example, i can give 5 final fantasies which DON'T adhere to the rule. and one of the funniest cases is FF13, where a female is the damsel in distress, and the hero is HER SISTER.

So because the hero is her sister, it suddenly makes it less bad that it's (again) a female in the place of no power? Not really. I'm not saying this trope is inherently bad (which is all people seem to get from this because HUEHUEHUE LOOK AT MY SNARK), but I'm saying that it is rarely a position a male character is placed in; it's predominantly women. (Let's also read everything I said because I'm most definitely trying to not using words like 'always' and 'never.' I prefer to use words like 'overwhelmingly' and 'majority' because I recognise there are cases where the rule doesn't apply or fit entirely.)

So it's good that things are changing, but it doesn't make them inherently brilliant. It just means that we can now rescue ourselves as long as we have the help of someone else; it's showing cooperation (which is good), but it also still says that female characters still generally lack power. For instance, we can't rescue men. So while Peach may have given clues and help in the examples people are using, who's actually rescuing Mario? Why can't we?

Again, I'm not saying that this is bad. I'm saying that it's problematic because it's something we don't see enough. A woman can provide you with a useful item, but she can't be your rescuer.

and that is what moves the story in most games, it's not "oh, my personal object got kidnapped", it's someone close to you, someone you care about. your sister in FF13, FF3 has no damsel at all, FF4 has rosa being kidnapped like nuts, but the hero isn't on it just to save rosa, but also kain, his partner, so he's not doing it to claim "the ball" back, he's in it for his love and his friendship. rydia falls off the boat and when she comes back she literally saves the main character.

No one ever says "drat, my woman just got taken!" But the fact remains that the way the female's characterisation is treated is rarely done well and realistically. Whether it's the DiD trope or any of the others, they're frequently given the same treatment. Perhaps some of the best games for female characterisation are the Suikoden ones (but they still fall short with some characters because they become the stereotypical ditz females, which is another problem).

Chris is a brilliant character, and I still love her deeply. She also doesn't fit the stereotype of ranged/spellcaster; she's a knight captain, and she's one of the worst magic-users in the game. She's strong and rational, and she rarely rushes into anything without having a plan. The one downfall with her is that you rarely see how upset killing Lulu made her (which is more a problem with the way death was treated, not anything that is part of a feminist issue).

Back on FF, though:
Final Fantasy - The goal was to rescue Princess Sara from Garland.
Final Fantasy 2 - Hilda was captured and rescued by the party, but the Hilda in the cell that is rescued isn't her (and is a ploy); they then go to the Emperor's arena and proceed from there. She was still damsel'd.
Final Fantasy 4 - Rosa takes the place of a damsel in that, as soon as you've cured her illness (also a similar plot device), she's kidnapped by Golbez.
Final Fantasy 7 - Aerith. This is also a game where we get a lot of interesting class-related stereotypes being broken out of somewhat (as she's initially a flower peddler). But that doesn't diminish the story and her death, but she still is a damsel in terms of what occurs.
Final Fantasy 8 - We've already hit on Rinoa.
Final Fantasy 9 - GarnetDagger starts off as one of the most brilliant characters, and I still love her. But then she gets her eidolons forcibly extracted from her (conveniently, everyone's powerless at this point anyway). And then we've got Eiko who is kidnapped to have her eidolons extracted as well (added bonus for the child portrayal themes, too), but Mog suddenly stops it. Hilda (Cid's wife) is abducted by Kuja.
Final Fantasy 10 - Already dealt with Yuna. Rikku doesn't get the DiD treatment, but she falls into another category of female characters being too naive or excessively child-like (or ditzy). Lulu's probably the strongest of them all in terms of personality/character.
Final Fantasy 12 - Penelo got kidnapped.
Final Fantasy 13 - Serah's transformation into a crystal is a big factor for two of the people to be there (and part of why they became l'Cie).

Final Fantasy 6 is one I'm willing to toy around with. Celes actually has to be rescued from her impending execution, but she initially fights against it in favour of remaining. And while I do love Celes, I typically find that I do not like another plot device that was utilised (such as the mixture of "she's a bad person" and also "she's the love interest" being turned into the conflict point -- this has nothing to do with whether or not the character is male or female; it's just annoying storytelling).

Here's another fun thing: Hilda (the wife of Cid) in FF9 does something I consider positive-ish. She turns her husband into an oglop for being a womaniser. Positive image for "don't put up with a cheater" then gets turned into "you probably should've rethought your running away."

So while I'm not saying the DiD is a bad thing, I am saying that it's heavily entrenched and quite obvious throughout a lot of titles. As seen with Final Fantasy, though, it's at least changing. They're at least showing that women can be rescuers, but we're also overwhelmingly the victims.

Even with newer games like Amy (and it's a horrible game, so don't play it), women are rescuing women. Yes, it's a strong female lead! But she's also saving another woman. I'm not saying that's inherently bad, but I also know there are a lot of women who help men on a daily basis (ranging from answering simple questions to actually going entirely out of their way to help them); it would be nice to see that reproduced.

And a lot of times when we do get the really strong female characters, they're often surrounded by men. They become a member of a token minority, and the values of the group are dominated by the men around them. Again, Borderlands does this.

Except all the examples she gave from nintendo don't even follow that logic outside of the most barebones storylines. She picks the mario platformers - the ones that have no plot at all and uses them as examples. Honestly, assuming that peach "does nothing" while captured is just that: an assumption, you never see nor hear from her in the platformers aside from the very beginning or very end.
And this is completely disregarding the mario rpgs, the only games which really have a plot where you see that peach deliberately goes out of her way to be anything BUT a damsel in distress.

Let's also be reminded that she stressed that she was focusing on the main franchise, not the games that were developed outside of it by companies that had licensed it to create them.

And don't get me started on the fallacies of her using zelda as a example of a damsel in distress.

Even on a temporary basis, it's not a fallacy. I even addressed this using Yuna in FFX. It's fitting, even if she has a strong presence and is being helpful later. (Hence the creation of 'The Helpful Damsel,' which doesn't preclude someone from being of use at one point and then being damsel'd in another.)

And since people are begging for examples in modern games: Borderlands 2. Anyone who has played this knows that Lilith is a strong character. (Again, though, she still falls into the category of being physically weaker than her male counterparts and a mage-type that I still complain about. Which doesn't mean Borderlands is inherently bad and that I hate it. I love Borderlands, but it's not without its faults.)

But then Lilith suddenly gets captured by Handsome Jack! And you have to rescue her to advance the plot. Angel could be (when she's not screwing with you) a Helpful Damsel; she's pretty much detained by her father as nothing more than a pure object. Then you go and kill her in order to stop him. Which is what enables him to steal Lilith in the first place. That's not saying that 'using the Sirens as a mode to conjure the strongest entity' is an inherently bad plot device or makes the games terrible, but look at who the Sirens are.

Then you're not trying hard enough. Even just picking from Mario Games

Since I'm willing to be educated, I'd like more examples outside of the Mario universe. You've picked up on Luigi's Mansion (and I even pointed out Mario is Missing, which is disgustingly horrible). But this is only a handful of games that I'm seeing out of thousands that exist, which still makes it that much more problematic to me.

Surely this line of logic supports the nintendo games then? In Mario/Zelda games it's always have the lower class male character (Plumber or Farmhand/Solider/other menial labourer for various Links) saving a princess or other upper class person.

Which then leads to yet another harmful (not inherently bad, but also not entirely good) stereotype that we see in female representation, even for things aimed at girls/women.

I don't know about the other girls here, but I grew up with literally every Disney princess being shoved down my throat. Even though I moderately liked some of them despite their issues (Belle is tolerable despite her apparent Stockholm Syndrome, and I do love Mulan), it's still a difficult pill for me to swallow. Almost everything we had was relegated to "needing a white knight" to sweep us off our feet. It's taken until now to finally get characters like Rapunzel and Merida (who both still have faults) to even get a sense of characters that are more similar to real girls.

So then that begs a class-related issue. Where are your lower and middle class girls?

It's all related. It's not just women who are left out or badly portrayed in the media; it's people of colour, and it's lower class people. And if you want a great previous example, take a look at the entire movie for Aladdin. Jasmine becomes a Damsel at one point, Aladdin's actively called a 'street rat' for being poor and made into a thief (because that's what all poor people do, apparently).

But sitting around acting like we should care about what they say just makes men believe it more. If women sit around whining about "this is sexist or unfair to women" men just find the concept to be true. If all we can do is sit around pointing it out and complaining about it, that makes us seem weak. If it doesn't bother us, they can't really sit there thinking it actually has some sort of effect on us.

And I find that a disgusting way to think about it. I actually had a similar conversation with a friend today about why language is important and how the use of "status as an insult" is actually worse than he believed it was. He was telling me it's okay to tell guys to "quit being girls" or use "gay" as a reference to something stupid; he said it was fine that we use phrases like "Indian giving" or "gypped/jewed/welshed." He also said it wasn't inherently discriminatory that the Japanese have the phrase "bakachon camera" for the disposable ones (which sort of says it's a camera so easy that an idiot or a Korean could use it).

But the fact of the matter is that if you say "as a woman," it lends more power to the statement than it otherwise has. Fine, this form of sexism doesn't bother you, and you don't see it as harmful and so on (or you don't see it as sexist, whatever). Don't attach "as a woman" to it because of the very reasons raizoo gave. Let it stand on its own two feet as your opinion. By attaching those other three words to it, it allows someone else to attribute it to another woman who is bothered by it and tell her why she shouldn't be.

Language is powerful, especially when misconstrued.

What's funny is that Anita's actually addressed this in the past with the visions of what the media shows as 'being feminist.' Feminists are bad. But strong female characters who distance themselves from these crazy people who are seeking equal rights are good. It's called the 'Straw Feminist' trope; it happens all the time, and girls still do this in every day life. ("I support equality for women... But I'm not a feminist." -- Except, by definition, you are.) It's something that I've seen even before I saw her video on it, and it doesn't even need to be her saying it; it could be any other woman (or person), like Tina Fey and Amy Poehler (who have both pointed this out a number of times).
That's also why the media focuses on the extremists; they make it so easy to point out why "feminism is bad," when the fact is that feminism is good. Equal rights for members of society? Yeah, there's nothing bad about that (unless you're making your living and generating your power from systematically oppressing a group of people).

No, feminism is still going because women still lack equality in nearly every facet of society. Everything from our advertising campaigns to children (watch boy vs girl toy commercials and have fun with that one), women's pay inequality (so we get less income for the same job), and a lot of other topics surrounding women's rights. It's not about denying that there are bad things about society for men (such as when parents divorce, almost every court grants custody to the woman without securing proper evidence of who the best parent is); there are a lot of negative stereotypes about men that should be addressed, too. The fact is that men (and as much as I hate putting this phrase out there, the white-straight-men -- the unfortunate part is that this group of people get turned into the villain, and I hate that just as much as I hate discrimination) aren't having the power removed from them.

Stereotypes comes for everyone not just women, you can all it from religion, race or anything.

Also what inequality? Women are getting more PHD's than men, if a man and a woman postulates for the exact same jobs, guess who has more chance to get the job?
IfA woman gets up to -40% of charge. If a man gets 5 years in prision, a woman just for being a woman can get only 3 years.
I agree that there's still some inequality between women and men but the gap is not that big as the media tries to impose us.

That's just the thing: it IS a girls-only club, for a lot of the feminists out there. They think they're better than men; they're not fighting for female equality, they're fighting for female superiority.

It sounds like the only thing you know about feminists is what you've seen on TV and in movies...

ugh, i hate going into massively long posts ._.

what i'm shooting for with final fantasy is that even though they do the damsel in distress thing, it's not always the woman, i'd think kain is worse off than rosa, with him being brainwashed and all. five has everyone helpless one way or another and.. -SPOILER- the aerith of this game is a male character -END SPOILER- 7 kills one female character, but all the others are more reliable than the main character for good part of the story (from what i've seen from LP's at least, haven't beaten it)

dissidia is one of my favorite FF games, and features the only female as a DiD, however, due to the main character being everyone, it also shows her growth and learning how to reject kefka's brainwashing. enter duodecim, where the rest of the cast is pretty much led by lightning.

and honestly, i REALLY hate long arguments, so i'll just leave these two here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Da...VideoGames
that shows plenty of damsels in distress, but there's also plenty of "subversions", many within the same game.

and this one just for kicks i guess
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...ressedDude

and we've toldyou, that's not what the true feminism is, that's going radical. think PETA.

Forgive my easy mistakenabilty (that's totally a word). Blame the internet. I came across that way, but I meant it seems that way because of the media/movies/TV. Frankly, the extremes are portrayed more, and they makes it seem like a girls club. True feminism is for equality, and it's not a girls club. (On a side-note, I do agree with Chew, feminist is a bit of a stupid name for promoting equality.)

Forgive my easy mistakenabilty (that's totally a word). Blame the internet. I came across that way, but I meant it seems that way because of the media/movies/TV. Frankly, the extremes are portrayed more, and they makes it seem like a girls club. True feminism is for equality, and it's not a girls club. (On a side-note, I do agree with Chew, feminist is a bit of a stupid name for promoting equality.)

it's feminism because the women were the ones being absolutely ignored, men wanted nothing from them back then.

nowadays though, that's not really the case, there's stuff men have that women don't, and backwards, equalism would be a more correct term now but the original idea is that of "equal rights for both sexes"

which is why you should ignore the extremists, i wonder how many people here remember when i posted that link of the "femitheist" who wanted to remove father's day and replace it with international castration day"

yea, that's not feminism, that's just a nutjob calling herself that.

Also what inequality? Women are getting more PHD's than men, if a man and a woman postulates for the exact same jobs, guess who has more chance to get the job?
IfA woman gets up to -40% of charge. If a man gets 5 years in prision, a woman just for being a woman can get only 3 years.
I agree that there's still some inequality between women and men but the gap is not that big as the media tries to impose us.

Oh goody, so we can get PhD's. What about the reasons behind why women might be attaining higher education? Some of the social reasons why there are more women in post-graduate education fall into the category that we often have to prove our intelligence more. Other minorities fall into this category as well. We have to do more work proving why we're valuable.

Let's also look at a few things. While working in HR, I noticed my bosses were less likely to hire women in full-time positions (or positions that may've had forced overtime, because that's just a brilliant aspect of working for bad companies regardless of who you are). Why? Because women are more likely to take time out of work for their families. Women in my age range often receive the thoughts of "We'll probably have to replace her in a couple years." Why? I have a uterus and that clearly means I'll want children one day.

As a cross-family issue, let's say that I get married and have a family. People still expect that it will be me who takes time out of their career in order to raise the family. Most places in America do not offer a comparable paternity leave for men (furthering a poor stereotype that men don't care about their families as much as women do). If my husband does it, he's seen as weak and needy; he's seen as being 'whipped' and catering to my every desire. He's seen as being effeminate and "womanly." And that's completely ignoring the fact that maybe he wanted to do it. Also, there are still places that don't offer significant maternity leave for women. The entire system surrounding family issues is disgusting (and that says nothing about vacation time for individuals in the work place -- all of these issues are intertwined).

When comparing jobs/experience, men receive higher wages than women for the same job. This is even true of fields where women are the majority (teaching, nursing and social work). We receive 82% of a man's median weekly income, and female execs sit at 69%. (This is ignoring other issues such as class distinction.)

As a societal issue, girls are not frequently encouraged to participate in fields involving maths and science. This can be seen in the toys marketed toward boys and girls. Boys' toys encourage active play, most often supporting spatial skills. Girls still get crap like dolls, which encourage domesticity. While this has changed (somewhat), it still happens more often than should be allowed. It also supports the masculine stereotype for men, which essentially denies them access to these more "caring" and "cooperative" and "interpersonal" interests.

Let's look at language. Tell a boy to "stop being such a girl," it's a negative thing. Women aren't positive, we're weak and fragile. Don't act like a woman because you might be showing your emotions. Blahblahblah. "Be a man" is constantly used for guys, trying to reinforce the idea of stoicism and physical strength. How many words related to masculinity are used in statuses-as-insults? Not many. I'm really only stuck with "don't be a penis" and its variations (which are few). Whereas I know that parts of a woman's body are used negatively, and it's not just what falls between her legs; it's also our gender that's used negatively.

And, to be fair, if we opt in for equality for all? And actually pay attention to the stereotypes and try to change them? Then things seem to change positively for all people involved.

Sadly, I think you're blind to what the media is actually saying. I can point out a lot of other areas where women are overlooked just in the entertainment industry.

1. How many older female singers can you name who are still actively producing material in the same ways that their male counterparts were? If they're active, how much advertisement are they getting in comparison to the men who are active?
2. How many older female actresses can you name who are still in the spotlight in the same ways their male counterparts are?
3. How are female politicians talked to in comparison to their male counterparts? (Hint: It frequently is more about their clothing and style choices than their beliefs.)
4. How many females work in the behind-the-scenes aspects in any major movie/television production? How many are writers? Directors? Producers?

Seriously, even for shows that are predominantly female, look at the crew. And it's no wonder we get what could be otherwise great shows (because of the characters in it) that randomly fall into a race/gender/class trap.

Let's look at language. Tell a boy to "stop being such a girl," it's a negative thing. Women aren't positive, we're weak and fragile. Don't act like a woman because you might be showing your emotions. Blahblahblah. "Be a man" is constantly used for guys, trying to reinforce the idea of stoicism and physical strength. How many words related to masculinity are used in statuses-as-insults? Not many. I'm really only stuck with "don't be a penis" and its variations (which are few). Whereas I know that parts of a woman's body are used negatively, and it's not just what falls between her legs; it's also our gender that's used negatively.

i'd like to point something out in this part only, telling a boy to stop being such a girl is an insult to everyone* not just girls. it's telling men that "haha, you're showing your emotions, you're weak, learn to suck it up." which is obviously not true and is part of the "male stereotype" (which... even more retardedly, is being kept mainly by men)