Twilight Princess is forever ruined by Skyward Sword.

Shouldn't have to try to have fun.

Don't misconstrue his sentence. The game is fun regardless, it's just going full blown easy mode on it isn't going to be as enjoying. There are lots of things people do to have fun, in a sense they are trying to have fun. What's your problem with that?

What Locked said. You can't enjoy a fist fight if you use a gun.


Alternatively, you can't sit in a corner and spam a single attack in Tekken and enjoy the battle to the fullest.

There's the problem. If you swing like crazy, it's not going to be fun. Why would you even do that? You don't do that in real life if you use a sword, do you? If you slow down and properly plan and aim your strikes, you'll have a much more interesting time.

Except obviously I didn't. There is NOTHING more interesting about deliberately NOT winning the fights in the simplest and quickest way possible.

This is also a reason why I can't stand to watch people play this game on Youtube. It drives me nuts. Those movements aren't even natural.

None of the movements are natural. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say sword fights don't consist of waggling your arms in front of you, attempting timing or otherwise.

Swordplay has 9 basic strikes that Skyward Sword utilizes. You're missing out on more than half of them.

Haha no. There is no different between vertical up-down and vertical down-up. It's being seriously forgiving to even considered swinging in different angles as different "techniques".

Or this. If you limit yourself and actually try to have some fun, you'll have more fun than you think.

Except, obviously I didn't. They couldn't make a balanced system, ripped out all progress of the combat system from previous games (Twilight princess built on Wind wakers, which built on Ocarina/MM) to add... swinging your arm a little at angles.

(Incase this isn't obvious, I think SS is the worst 3d console zelda game, and you're not going to be able to change my mind on that)

Except obviously I didn't. There is NOTHING more interesting about deliberately NOT winning the fights in the simplest and quickest way possible.


None of the movements are natural. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say sword fights don't consist of waggling your arms in front of you, attempting timing or otherwise.




Haha no. There is no different between vertical up-down and vertical down-up. It's being seriously forgiving to even considered swinging in different angles as different "techniques".



Except, obviously I didn't. They couldn't make a balanced system, ripped out all progress of the combat system from previous games (Twilight princess built on Wind wakers, which built on Ocarina/MM) to add... swinging your arm a little at angles.

(Incase this isn't obvious, I think SS is the worst 3d console zelda game, and you're not going to be able to change my mind on that)

-There's nothing interesting in having a challenge? That's basically what you just said. Being a cheapass is not fun, sorry.
-Don't waggle. There's your problem. I think I already stated that. >_> The way Link swings his sword in the game is exactly how you swing a sword in real life.
-There are 9 basic sword strikes in real life and it applies in Skyward Sword. Don't believe me? Take up Martial Arts. They will tell you the same exact thing.
-Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask had way less interesting combat mechanics. MASH THE B BUTTON! Twilight Princess' only interesting techniques not transfered to Skyward Sword were Mortal Draw and the technique you use to get behind an enemy and do and upward spin attack.

Shouldn't have to try to have fun.

I'm inclined to agree with you, however, the truth is there's always at least one broken item or skill, and it breaks a lot of otherwise good games, so why not just pretend that it doesn't exist and make things more challenging and enjoyable? My prime example in cases like this is Maria in Star Ocean 3; with her you can technically clear the game on 4D at lowest possible level without anywhere close to best in slot gear, without her you will struggle against Freya at maxed levels with best in slot gear on easy mode. That's how big of a difference there is, everyone knows it, so why not just completely forgo using her in your battle party? It makes the game last much longer, makes it more about strategy and less about PRESS SPECIAL TO WIN, AIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICE, and besides, Albel and Peppita are MUCH more fun to fight as because of their movement patterns while attacking, and most people don't even know this because from the second they pick up Maria they just main her and coast through the game.

-Don't waggle. There's your problem. I think I already stated that. >_> The way Link swings his sword in the game is exactly how you swing a sword in real life.

It doesn't matter. That is true for ALL Zelda games. The way you swing the wii remote however, is NOT how you would use a sword.

-There are 9 basic sword strikes in real life and it applies in Skyward Sword. Don't believe me? Take up Martial Arts. They will tell you the same exact thing.

... This is ridiculous. There is no point comparing a videogame to real sword fighting in the first place.

-Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask had way less interesting combat mechanics. MASH THE B BUTTON! Twilight Princess' only interesting techniques not transfered to Skyward Sword were Mortal Draw and the technique you use to get behind an enemy and do and upward spin attack.

Oh. So the fact that you could "mash the B button" makes Ocarina /Majoras bad, but the fact that skywards sword went back to that EXACT formula makes it better? You know what, you've ripped your own logic apart. You can take Ocarina/Majoras mask slow and methodical, just like you "could" do so in skyward sword. But there is absolutely no good reason to.

It doesn't matter. That is true for ALL Zelda games. The way you swing the wii remote however, is NOT how you would use a sword.


... This is ridiculous. There is no point comparing a videogame to real sword fighting in the first place.



Oh. So the fact that you could "mash the B button" makes Ocarina /Majoras bad, but the fact that skywards sword went back to that EXACT formula makes it better? You know what, you've ripped your own logic apart. You can take Ocarina/Majoras mask slow and methodical, just like you "could" do so in skyward sword. But there is absolutely no good reason to.

-Bullshit. It's nearly identical to the way I was taught how to use a sword. There's more you would do in real life, sure, but it's not inaccurate.
-The whole point of the Wii Motion Plus is to be able to play the game with realistic swordplay. Did you forget that point?
-I never said Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask were bad because you mash the B button to fight. lmao I said it's less interesting.

My prime example in cases like this is Maria in Star Ocean 3; with her you can technically clear the game on 4D at lowest possible level without anywhere close to best in slot gear, without her you will struggle against Freya at maxed levels with best in slot gear on easy mode. That's how big of a difference there is, everyone knows it, so why not just completely forgo using her in your battle party? It makes the game last much longer, makes it more about strategy and less about PRESS SPECIAL TO WIN, AIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICEAIMINGDEVICE, and besides, Albel and Peppita are MUCH more fun to fight as because of their movement patterns while attacking, and most people don't even know this because from the second they pick up Maria they just main her and coast through the game.

Really? She's that strong, I didn't know. I basically used Fayt, Cliff, and Nel the whole game lol.

-The whole point of the Wii Motion Plus is to be able to play the game with realistic swordplay. Did you forget that point?

So?
1)It being the point doesn't make it a better game. Throwing out almost all variations in enemies/attack patterns because they want to make you use a severely more boring input style isn't good game design.
2)It's not like they were giving you an option. And yes. It would have been so ridiculously easy to emulate the scheme on a control pad. When you're L targetting, the camera stick (which does nothing while locked on) is used to direct your sword. Easy.

And what about all the shitty controls for things that weren't swordplay? It didn't feel "better" to have to move my arm to throw bombs. And the beetle/loftwing steering was so much worse than controlling other flying thiings, like wind waker birds. Then again, the entire skyworld was a disaster of an overworld anyway.

-I never said Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask were bad because you mash the B button to fight. lmao I said it's less interesting.

Ok, so the exact same style of fighting in skyward sword IS less interesting, like I've been saying. Thanks.

I can't believe the way this thread has developed.

[MENTION=69]Lozmaster[/MENTION]; It literally seems like you are just making up things that you can say make SS suck. Not realistic swordplay? If I had a 1h sword and a shield, I'd imagine that I would use it in that sort of way. Given I am not exactly trained in swordfighting, but it seemed pretty natural to me. Nothing interesting about not taking the easy/quick path? How about challenge? I had a blast taking my time and going for the hits that count, not mashing swings together to take out enemies.

You can play a lot of games either the fast and easy way, or take your time and really experience the game as it was meant to be played, the examples are endless. You can keep saying that everything is wrong with this game, but considering it is the FIRST zelda game to use wii motion plus, I feel they did a pretty pineappleing good job.

Edit:

What do you mean by "a disaster of an overworld"?

So?
1)It being the point doesn't make it a better game. Throwing out almost all variations in enemies/attack patterns because they want to make you use a severely more boring input style isn't good game design.
2)It's not like they were giving you an option. And yes. It would have been so ridiculously easy to emulate the scheme on a control pad. When you're L targetting, the camera stick (which does nothing while locked on) is used to direct your sword. Easy.

And what about all the shitty controls for things that weren't swordplay? It didn't feel "better" to have to move my arm to throw bombs. And the beetle/loftwing steering was so much worse than controlling other flying thiings, like wind waker birds. Then again, the entire skyworld was a disaster of an overworld anyway.



Ok, so the exact same style of fighting in skyward sword IS less interesting, like I've been saying. Thanks.

What the heck camera stick are you talking about? O___O The Wii mote doesn't even have a secondary stick. All it has is the one, which controls movement.

Ocarina of Time + Majora's Mask don't share a combat system with Skyward Sword. I'm not sure where you got that idea. The style of swordplay is completely different between the N64 games and Skyward Sword. ._.

What the heck camera stick are you talking about? O___O The Wii mote doesn't even have a secondary stick. All it has is the one, which controls movement.

Ocarina of Time + Majora's Mask don't share a combat system with Skyward Sword. I'm not sure where you got that idea. The style of swordplay is completely different between the N64 games and Skyward Sword. ._.

"On a control pad". I didn't say using a wiimote did I. I said they didn't give you a choice, and premptively put an easy way they could have copied the system onto a regular control pad if they really had to. And no they aren't exactly the same.However they're both mindlessly easy in that the best way to deal with every fight is the same way. Which is a major step downwards from Twilight princess and even wind waker.

You yourself called that boring in ocarina/mm. You can't have it both ways.

What do you mean by "a disaster of an overworld"?

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overworld"]
"An overworld is, in a broad sense, an area within a video game that interconnects all its levels or locations. They are mostly common in role-playing games, though this does not exclude other video game genres."[/URL]

Go on. Tell me you think the barren, empty sky is a better overworld than Hyrule field in ocarina/twilight princess, or Clocktown/termina field in MM, or even wind wakers ocean. At least wind waker had inhabitted islands and people living on the sea. The sky just has... skyloft and the pumpkin island. Yeah.

"On a control pad". I didn't say using a wiimote did I. I said they didn't give you a choice, and premptively put an easy way they could have copied the system onto a regular control pad if they really had to. And no they aren't exactly the same.However they're both mindlessly easy in that the best way to deal with every fight is the same way. Which is a major step downwards from Twilight princess and even wind waker.

You yourself called that boring in ocarina/mm. You can't have it both ways.

There weren't even camera controls (aside from L/Z targeting) in other games except Ocarina of Time 3D, anyway, for anything but first person view. ._.

No, not everything is fought mindlessly the same way. Each enemy has their own method of being them, just like in Twilight Princess, just like in Wind Waker, and heck, even just like in The Adventure of Link.

You seem to be reaching for reasons why it's a bad game (by even twisting my words around). I get that you think it's not the greatest game ever and I'm not trying to force your opinion to be otherwise, but your opinions seem to be based on things that aren't even true.

There weren't even camera controls (aside from L/Z targeting) in other games except Ocarina of Time 3D, anyway, for anything but first person view. ._.

...Are you being serious? The C stick in twilight princess (gamecube) and wind waker (gamecube) moves the camera around for you. I'm pretty sure it does so in all the gamecube versions of Ocarina/Majoras mask too. It certainly does in the Virtual console versions.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overworld"]
"An overworld is, in a broad sense, an area within a video game that interconnects all its levels or locations. They are mostly common in role-playing games, though this does not exclude other video game genres."[/URL]

Go on. Tell me you think the barren, empty sky is a better overworld than Hyrule field in ocarina/twilight princess, or Clocktown/termina field in MM, or even wind wakers ocean. At least wind waker had inhabitted islands and people living on the sea. The sky just has... skyloft and the pumpkin island. Yeah.

I didn't play wind waker, although my friends tell me it is one of their favorite games. Regardless, I felt the sky overworld wasn't that bad. Hell, it was much quicker to get across it than it was in TP where I had to run as a wolf for ages to reach things. At least the flying system was unique and when you found those cubes in game, you had to come back up and search for them up in the sky. Also that "barren, empty sky" did have an inner area once you unlocked it, providing more content to explore and interact with. I also thought the system that let you fly down to certain areas in maps once you had visited them was helpful for gathering items for the item forging system.

I guess my point is that the overworld wasn't bad and your reasoning is not good justification to declare this a bad game. The small amount of time I spent in that 'oh so terrible wasteland' was easily balanced out by doing quests in Skyloft and that area, playing the actual game, and doing boss rush mode.

...Are you being serious? The C stick in twilight princess (gamecube) and wind waker (gamecube) moves the camera around for you. I'm pretty sure it does so in all the gamecube versions of Ocarina/Majoras mask too. It certainly does in the Virtual console versions.

Oh, so in other words, unless the game comes out for Game Cube, you won't play it?

Because that's exactly what it sounds like. You sound just like someone on XFire I know. "Unless they come out with more Zelda games only with classic control options, they'll forever suck." (What he REALLY said was, "Unless they make another Zelda game for the Nintendo 64, I'll never buy a Zelda game again.") It's a horrible preconceived notion. I don't understand it at all. Skyward Sword controls work beautifully. It has issues, yes, but it makes for a lot of entertaining hours. It's like the only people who hate Skyward Sword are the people who either had way too high expectations for the game, for some dumb reason, or had preconceived notions that it would suck because it uses motion controls. Well, guess what! Get used to it. Eiji Aonuma already stated he plans to use the same or similar control scheme for future installments, because he likes them.

(Also, the Gamecube version of Ocarina of Time and Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask most certainly did not have camera control; the C-stick was used for C buttons. I know that for certain. >_> I'll admit I forgot about Wind Waker, but Wind Waker's camera control was absolutely useless. I never used it and it was a forgettable feature. Twilight Princess, I've never played on the Game Cube, so I didn't know about it. It was probably just as useless, because camera control sticks are completely unnecessary in Zelda games.)

Oh, so in other words, unless the game comes out for Game Cube, you won't play it?

Because that's exactly what it sounds like. You sound just like someone on XFire I know. "Unless they come out with more Zelda games only with classic control options, they'll forever suck." (What he REALLY said was, "Unless they make another Zelda game for the Nintendo 64, I'll never buy a Zelda game again.") It's a horrible preconceived notion. I don't understand it at all. Skyward Sword controls work beautifully. It has issues, yes, but it makes for a lot of entertaining hours. It's like the only people who hate Skyward Sword are the people who either had way too high expectations for the game, for some dumb reason, or had preconceived notions that it would suck because it uses motion controls. Well, guess what! Get used to it. Eiji Aonuma already stated he plans to use the same or similar control scheme for future installments, because he likes them.

(Also, the Gamecube version of Ocarina of Time and Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask most certainly did not have camera control; the C-stick was used for C buttons. I know that for certain. >_> I'll admit I forgot about Wind Waker, but Wind Waker's camera control was absolutely useless. I never used it and it was a forgettable feature. Twilight Princess, I've never played on the Game Cube, so I didn't know about it. It was probably just as useless, because camera control sticks are completely unnecessary in Zelda games.)

That or they drop this motion control concept until they developed a reliable motion control from the get go. I think the idea of motion control sword fighting is a retarded concept. It isn't about precision/speed only, not that the wii can even do that right, but strength is also a big factor in sword play. How the hell do you determine how much "force" is required to deem something "deflectable". That's why we get these crappy kiddy games with no real swordplay, the technology isn't there yet to replicate it.

For pineapple's sake, the concept is there for the sake of making you feel more like you're "in the game". It is not by any means supposed to simulate real swordplay. You are setting the bar way too high for games aimed for kids.

It's there to have fun with and enjoy, not to make you feel like you're really swinging a 40 pound sword. I bet 90% of people out there couldn't even play this game for more than 10 minutes at a time if it were as realistic as you guys are expecting it to be.

Take it for what it is and have fun with it, because clearly it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Given the game's ratings, your issues are minimal, at best.

Seriously. What are some of you expecting? This is a video game we are talking about. I think the motion control is a step in the right direction for an innovative way to play a game that is not just with a standard controller.

[MENTION=4235]KhainiWest[/MENTION]; I don't see why they would need to take 'force' into account. It's Link killing the enemies, not us. He always swings the sword with the power to kill because he is the hero. Hopefully for future games they can improve on the software and make it work more seemlessly. I also don't see how you can call this game "crappy." If you want REAL sword play, then go do martial arts or go buy a sword and swing it around your backyard. I understand that the technology isn't incredible yet, but considering Red Steel was a complete piece of s'hit, Skyward Sword uses a much more reliable system and is a lot of fun to play.

For pineapple's sake, the concept is there for the sake of making you feel more like you're "in the game". It is not by any means supposed to simulate real swordplay. You are setting the bar way too high for games aimed for kids.

It's there to have fun with and enjoy, not to make you feel like you're really swinging a 40 pound sword. I bet 90% of people out there couldn't even play this game for more than 10 minutes at a time if it were as realistic as you guys are expecting it to be.

Take it for what it is and have fun with it, because clearly it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Given the game's ratings, your issues are minimal, at best.

I expect three things;

Motion control not to be fu`cking shotty

Replicate my swings

Create a battle system where if I swing left and his defense is on the right, it fu`cking hits him.

I haven't played the game but looking at the reviews it seems this game is just straight up stupid in terms of force feeding motion control.

[MENTION=8017]CrazyForDex[/MENTION];

Now you guys are overexaggerating the concept because of your feelings. Strenght should be considered because I want to be able to counter appropriately. How much fun would that be? Where your strikes have a strategy then wanking off until the game lets you break their defense. Or until they give you arrows where to hit?

Again it doesn't matter to me, I thought the game looked terrible from the get go, and reading the comments from [MENTION=69]Lozmaster[/MENTION]; doesn't seem my judgement was far off.