Unscheduled Maintenance - February 7, 2013

lol I don't care about the box being fixed, it was an exploit, yes, it needed to be fixed. I'm not complaining about that. I'm saying their priorities are retarded. When I find 90% of stronghold maps filled with nothing but people floating in the middle of the damn map, killing everything in 2 seconds (90% of the time they're kaisers ffs), that's when I think things are getting out of hand. Hackers get to 200 without even being looked into. People would rather buy the subscription required to acquire these hacks than buy NX. And more and more people are buying into it. Even just 2 months ago, when I went into a map and there was a botter, he ran. Now? They don't give a rat's ass. They just keep on killing the entire map in 2 seconds. Oh, and when all of these botters finally settle in and are making 500mill plus a day per character they have running because they don't get banned, you'll start to see why botting isn't something to take lightly.

I am not demanding some magical cure for hacking. That will never happen. But a hack should not be around for THIS long and still not even be acknowledged by the people in charge. Hell, Nexon outright LOCKS threads on their boards that have anything to do with it. That's how badly their blinds are closed on this stuff. They just don't care.

And yes, us "funded high levels" are the ones who are complaining, because we're the ones who pineappleing paid Nexon the money to get where we are in the first place. It's annoying when I have to sit in a room for 3 hours or more trying to get into a boss because there's some jackass wearing level 120 clean equips getting in before me when he shouldn't even be there. You can say what you want, but at the end of the day you would feel the exact same way if you were in our shoes.

Both are important to fix, but the problem is that this stack hack has been around for weeks so they should at least make it known that they know about it and are working on a fix if they're doing anything. Meanwhile, a cash-related exploit surfaces and they work on it at once so if at anything the argument is not about which fix is more important but whether hacks damage the game, the economy and Nexon's income that much, to which I say it does.

In terms of the game, hacks make it difficult for one to find legit parties to go anywhere. Let's say you do and go for an Empress run- oh oops, 454090 is in there and there goes your run. Then there's the anti-hacking system that manages to ban everyone except for the actual hackers (Or if they get banned there's virtually zero impact on them).

In terms of the economy, consider what happens when there's an overflow of mesos. It's true that the players complaining now are mainly funded players but more mesos means everything gets inflated, while there's realistically only so much a non-funded player can earn without heavy merchanting and some NX/mesos for a store. The naive Mapler cheers when MMB prices go down because they can then master their skill, but then they wish to also buy chairs and they learn that it's not possible because it's too expensive since other players set the price in this case and not hackers, and these players need more mesos to afford higher-end items. If counterfeit money was made undetectable and it flooded our markets, your salary wouldn't be enough to buy anything, would you? That's how inflation ultimately hurts the economy because newcomers and some other Maplers can only some money which may not be enough for them to progress further after a point, and if some of these players might have become big spenders that's a loss to Nexon.

Finally, a great part of Nexon's income doesn't come from these slot expansions (At least not directly) but from cubes and things such as Gachapon. Do the math, you need damage to fight end-game bosses and you need compensation in order to not make a huge loss. Furthermore, you would hardly spend $1000 now if you saw everyone complaining about hackers hogging Empress since you'd think you have no chance of getting in, so you spend a lot less than you might have if Empress was available for you. The worse part of course is when former legits also decide to hack since why bother with integrity when it costs you a paycheck in-game, it's just a game and you'd do more damage for free*?

I don't know just how Nexon still keeps earning (Meh, MSEA is like this too with people who keep spending tons of cash with no positive results) but these events are all related so they would and should get on it as soon as possible.

*This is not a stance of mine, but I wouldn't be surprised if others have thought of it. I just chose to cut out the hassle and not invest anything near the amount needed to boss.

The event is now behaving the way Maple Admin said it would from the start: after you receive a gift, you must wait for the pendant. If for some reason you fail to, then the next day you will only get the pendant.

I foresee a lot of dropped PoSes. It lasts a month and you can get 1 a day? :| The only reason I'm not gonna skip that part of the event is cause the Happy Time boxes are just that good.

I'm certainly not aiming for Empress level gearing, if it happens I'll take it but the level of diminishing returns for cubing unique-legendary or bonus pots is already my ceiling. Same for enhancements, I'm already past the point of diminishing returns, I'm not gonna buy more cash shop prots.

I foresee a lot of dropped PoSes. It lasts a month and you can get 1 a day? :|

I suspect that whoever designed this event intended for it to give out 1-day Pendants of the Spirit.
Ah well, it brings all of us closer to the anti-environmentalist medal.

This event getting ugly, instead of 30 mins per char to get it done, now we have to stay 1 hour per char, come on Nexon we have life to live f7.

This event getting ugly, instead of 30 mins per char to get it done, now we have to stay 1 hour per char, come on Nexon we have life to live f7.

Eh, it isn't that bad really. I mean you have to stay on for an hour to finish that new years quest as well.


Plus, it's not like you can't just afk and get it done.

Eh, it isn't that bad really. I mean you have to stay on for an hour to finish that new years quest as well.


Plus, it's not like you can't just afk and get it done.

Going to have to split up my 18 characters over a couple days or so now to do the quest.

A completely economy breaking hack? I don't know about you but the economy in Khaini seems pretty fine to me. How long has this hack been out? Weeks? I see no difference. You know who's making a big deal about this hack? All the funded high levels who can't Empress anymore. The VAST majority of the MS community can't do that. It's the vocal minority that's making a big deal about this stack hack. I admit it should be patched, it's a significant hack, but it's no where near as game breaking as you claim. People said the same thing about PG hacking and look how game breaking that was after being active for months.

Have you even been in FM? Maybe you don't notice it because it isn't directly affecting you or because it's been out for so long you're habituated to it. This hack has been out for well over a month now. Not simply a couple of weeks. Hackers killing CPB and Empress have completely deflated their drops. CPB weapons and equips go for 5mil-20mil for unplayed classes, 50-100mil for most classes, and newer classes' are ~200-500mil. These equips should be several bil. CPB should take an entire expedition to take down, not a single kaiser with BT. Empress equips are the same. The weapons are often cheaper than the equips, which in no way reflects the difficulty they should take to obtain. So don't sit here and give me this pomegranate about stack hack not affecting the economy. It's completely pineappleed up right now. And yes, I am in Khaini.

A completely economy breaking hack? I don't know about you but the economy in Khaini seems pretty fine to me. How long has this hack been out? Weeks? I see no difference. You know who's making a big deal about this hack? All the funded high levels who can't Empress anymore. The VAST majority of the MS community can't do that. It's the vocal minority that's making a big deal about this stack hack. I admit it should be patched, it's a significant hack, but it's no where near as game breaking as you claim. People said the same thing about PG hacking and look how game breaking that was after being active for months.

Well at least hackers can't dominate the dojo leaderboards and all the boss maps with PG + completely unfunded chars. Killing Hard Magnus solo with poorly funded characters, something that most legitimate parties cannot even come close to doing, is completely game breaking. There is just no comparison.

glitchers: "those damn hackers are preventing me from glitching"
hackers: "those damn glitchers are preventing me from hacking"
hackers+glitchers at same time: "that damn nexon preventing us from hacking/glitching"
nexon: "those darn hackers/glitchers are preventing us from making money"

everyone else left (8 people): "I wonder what's more fun to try, hacking or glitching?"
spanish five year old girl from Old El Paso taco commerical: "why not both?"

Just hopping in to say that stack hack still exists (went to Root Abyss with a Kaiser that used it)

I've never understood why cheap Empress/Loveless/etc. equips were bad for an economy. If they were coming from a legitimate person the equips would be expensive and the only person making money would be the seller. Large swathes of the community would never have access to the equipment. I am truly ignorant regarding this subject so educate me. Are you saying that some sort of trickle-down economics occurs from these sellers, that having only legit equipment in the market benefits everyone? Are the mesos spent on the weapon coming back down into the community in a healthy way? The way I see it, the mesos would likely stay in funded/NX circles being spent on equally well-scrolled or better gear.

I can understand that an individual would likely suffer because of this, but I just don't see the community suffering. And as much as I disagree with the opinion of [MENTION=9593]Darkstars[/MENTION]; regarding the HappyTime event, he makes considerably more sense when he was arguing this point.

From a NX perspective, I suspect the majority of people who are affected negatively by this have spent NX and will continue spending NX because it is their desire to get stronger that drives them, not shaving minutes off a boss. Besides, you've already spent the money to get great, how much greater can you still become i.e. how much more do you really need to spend? Probably not so much. Consider those now with end-game equipment to cube, because they can afford them, again, I am not advocating hacks, just throwing out what I observe, can these newly-geared people make up, what I perceive, as diminishing returns from a well-geared community, I suspect so. While Nexon loves their big spenders, money spent is already in their pocket, if you have less things to improve perhaps you aren't nearly as shiny in their eyes as you perceive you are.

So unless the vocal minority actually convinces the majority of strong players to stop desiring strength, I doubt NX spending will diminish, at least not to the point where new players with new sparkly gear will be unable to make up for it.

And inflationary pressure, I also don't see this as a significant problem for the majority of players. An example of chairs was put forth, that example just doesn't do it for me. Chairs are largely a luxury item. If a player cannot afford them now due to, what was mentioned as, hacker-induced inflationary pressure, then it is highly likely that the same player would not be able to afford the chair if they were concerned about lack-of-hacker high equipment prices. I am currently after Mage Tyrant gear, I can afford the lot, are the prices being inflated due to hackers and their mesos? Probably, I am aware of a hacker paying 7B per warrior piece. Would the pieces still cost this much without hackers? Probably, I know of a legit paying 8B a warrior piece.

TLR: I don't quite understand how cheap Empress/Loveless/etc. gear affects the community as a whole in a negative way. Most large spenders will continue to spend regardless of the situation. Well-funded individuals are largely diminishing-returns players in the eyes of Nexon that can be made up for with newly geared (using the aforementioned equips) players. Inflation doesn't appear to be that big of a deal.

For reference, I am largely a mercher with above-average gear who doesn't boss. Of course, not doing so insulates me from the current situation and probably lends to the idea that I definitely cannot relate to Empressers, I probably agree, that's why I'm asking for education.

I will get lambasted for what appears to be a hacker-hugging post of support, but I am really trying to understand the economic impact to the community, not just those who are vocal because displeasured.

Not sure if it's related, but there seems to have been a massive deflation of Timeless items in Khaini. I got a Timeless Aeas Hand, Timeless Moonlight (cape) and Timeless Myst Blue all for under 1 mil each.

I'm not sure why there is such a massive price drop, At first I thought of the treasure island event, but that only dropped reverse items.
Either way: FRIGGIN' AWESOME CHEAP 120 equips!

On another note, the curbrock map being blocked is a bit annoying. I'm worried of levelling my priest from 60 to 61 incase I lose the quest and missing out on an awesome ring and pendant, but at the same time.. I have the EXP coupon from Tot.

I wish they would do something about the perfect attendence quest.

Didn't get to play at all last night =s

snip

Have we forgotten that Nexon fixed two DC hacks in the past week? It's obvious they are doing something because they're actually issuing fixes. If anything the fixing of this event should show that Nexon does know when something is off. Sure it looked bad when the maintenance was extended for 4 hours because they realized there was another exploit but they patched that up too. I'm sure Nexon actually knows about the hack. They're not blind or stupid. What we can't possibly know is how hard it is to find a fix for the hack. Unless someone can actually produce the code for a fix we can't possibly know how easy or hard it is to fix this hack. Someone on these boards mentioned that VIP trainer hackers are almost never fixed. That's not a coincidence, these specific hacks are probably not easy to patch up.

Yes I admit that waiting for a boss for hours and hours is frustrating. But you can't extend that to say that they're not doing anything about this. Also botters have been around for YEARS. It's been so long since a botter actually CCed because I entered a map. They've been pretty up front about it for a long time now. You can choose to believe what you want about what Nexon does behind the scenes and I'm sure they're working on it. Their communication with the community isn't great. It never has been. As far as I can remember they've never publicly announced a specific hack until they patched it. Perhaps I just don't remember when they did. Regardless there is nothing wrong with their priorities as far as I'm concerned. There's only so much they can do at once and fixing this is better than fixing nothing at all.

snip

I remember when CPB first came out. A khaini team took it out and tried to sell the weapons off for max. The next day they lowered the prices to 1.6b. The day after even lower. No one WANTED CPB weapons because empress was so much cheaper and pretty much just as good. They shouldn't be selling for 50 mil I agree but it's no where near the degree you're suggesting. Empress equips were affordable even before stack hack. They were ~100 mil for the equips. It was only the weapon that was expensive. Last I checked weapons are still pretty pricey for popular classes. The prices have decreased yes. But has that had an effect on anything else in the economy? Last I checked everything else was still the same price it's been for the past while. There's been no real shift in prices of anything except for those two bosses. Even with stack hacks empress is still profitable for those who kill it. The economy hasn't changed in the past 6 months, not because of hacks anyways, and honestly I don't see why you think the economy is pineappleed.

snip

In my eyes the introduction of cheaper equips is always a plus for the general population. The problem here isn't the economic aspect of cheaper equips. There isn't really a downside to it being readily available. It's the hacking that generates these that's the problem. Ultimately these hackers hurt the ones who've invested the most into this game. I do feel for them. It's an unfortunate situation to be in. I do hope that the hack is patched soon.

As for inflationary pressure, I've heard the term inflation thrown around for a few years now. Every year someone points out that inflation is going to push the prices of items way up because of botting but I've yet to see a huge difference year after year. Yes there has been inflation. Over the course of the past 8 years it's far higher than what the US economy has seen. But it hasn't brought doomsday upon us all. A perfect weapon last year and the year before are worth the same they are now. Chairs that haven't been released in events or gachapon like the ryko chair are still similar in value compared to before. Some like star moon have even deflated though I'm struggling to figure out why. If anything equips as a whole have been getting cheaper and cheaper. The 21%+ equips are still a couple of bil. But everything below that has dropped considerably, at least in my world. 15% capes and earrings are selling for less than a bil now. Inflation hasn't done anything to this economy that's significant enough to warrant worry. Some how even with all the bots running around prices are pretty stable. The only time prices ever really changed was during meso exploits.

Not sure if it's related, but there seems to have been a massive deflation of Timeless items in Khaini. I got a Timeless Aeas Hand, Timeless Moonlight (cape) and Timeless Myst Blue all for under 1 mil each.

I'm not sure why there is such a massive price drop, At first I thought of the treasure island event, but that only dropped reverse items.
Either way: FRIGGIN' AWESOME CHEAP 120 equips!

On another note, the curbrock map being blocked is a bit annoying. I'm worried of levelling my priest from 60 to 61 incase I lose the quest and missing out on an awesome ring and pendant, but at the same time.. I have the EXP coupon from Tot.

If the empress mage cape has deflated (forget what its called), then I'm all over that. I'd NEVER be able to afford it any other way.

Oh pineapple this pomegranate. Should've just got my cubes when I could.

Me too now i wish agh i'm just dissapointedn and angry at the same time me and my hestitant self.

I've never understood why cheap Empress/Loveless/etc. equips were bad for an economy. If they were coming from a legitimate person the equips would be expensive and the only person making money would be the seller.

The way I see it, the mesos would likely stay in funded/NX circles being spent on equally well-scrolled or better gear.


I am currently after Mage Tyrant gear, I can afford the lot, are the prices being inflated due to hackers and their mesos? Probably, I am aware of a hacker paying 7B per warrior piece. Would the pieces still cost this much without hackers? Probably, I know of a legit paying 8B a warrior piece.

TLR: I don't quite understand how cheap Empress/Loveless/etc. gear affects the community as a whole in a negative way. Most large spenders will continue to spend regardless of the situation.

Inflation doesn't appear to be that big of a deal.

I will get lambasted for what appears to be a hacker-hugging post of support, but I am really trying to understand the economic impact to the community, not just those who are vocal because displeasured.

We're displeasured because the things are cheap in the first place because hackers undercut our prices, by a lot. They can keep hoarding the equips on many alternates and thus can afford to undercut for fast meso. We can't.

It affects the economy because this puts mesos into the hacker's hands, and most of the time, they sell mesos for IRL money so no, it is not circulating among players in a healthy way. It is circulating to those willing to pay cash and the remaining mesos in potential reserve stock for future customers.

The basic premise is that by doing this, sure, deflated prices are nice but what good are deflated prices if 1. they're so deflated, people would rather flock to hackers just because they know it's cheaper and 2. no one can sell pomegranate in the first place because of said hackers, which translates to no one has mesos to spend.

It's not an obvious sight, but this is the indirect effect.

Edit: Not just the bossers. It affects merchers. If a merchant wants to monopolize on a certain commodity (ex: confusion fragments), they'll probably hit a point where they just can't keep up with the rate the botters can introduce them into the economy.

We're displeasured because the things are cheap in the first place because hackers undercut our prices, by a lot. They can keep hoarding the equips on many alternates and thus can afford to undercut for fast meso. We can't.

It affects the economy because this puts mesos into the hacker's hands, and most of the time, they sell mesos for IRL money so no, it is not circulating among players in a healthy way. It is circulating to those willing to pay cash and the remaining mesos in potential reserve stock for future customers.

The basic premise is that by doing this, sure, deflated prices are nice but what good are deflated prices if 1. they're so deflated, people would rather flock to hackers just because they know it's cheaper and 2. no one can sell pomegranate in the first place because of said hackers, which translates to no one has mesos to spend.

It's not an obvious sight, but this is the indirect effect.

Edit: Not just the bossers. It affects merchers. If a merchant wants to monopolize on a certain commodity (ex: confusion fragments), they'll probably hit a point where they just can't keep up with the rate the botters can introduce them into the economy.

Merchers trying to monopolize a certain commodity is the exact reason most people can't afford items. Take Khaini where 2 people are buying up all the tyrant equips they can find and refusing to sell it to anyone for less than crazy amounts of money. If they didn't monopolize it I can guarantee it'd be cheaper to get tyrant equips.

Hackers haven't undercut the vast majority of items in the FM. The only things they've undercut are empress, CPB, and pot scrolls. The idea that this can bankrupt an economy is ludicrous, it's an over exaggeration at best. The vast majority of sellers and buyers in the FM are legitimate players with legitimate funds. The amount hackers store away or sell does not effect the economy on a significant enough scale to impact the amount of mesos in circulation.

Have we forgotten that Nexon fixed two DC hacks in the past week?

Pretty sure those were glitches (green mihile and tempest blades)

It's obvious they are doing something because they're actually issuing fixes.

They are letting more serious issues slide, which was exactly his point.

If anything the fixing of this event should show that Nexon does know when something is off.

Would be nice if these issues would be found before the patch came online.

Sure it looked bad when the maintenance was extended for 4 hours because they realized there was another exploit but they patched that up too. I'm sure Nexon actually knows about the hack. They're not blind or stupid. What we can't possibly know is how hard it is to find a fix for the hack. Unless someone can actually produce the code for a fix we can't possibly know how easy or hard it is to fix this hack. Someone on these boards mentioned that VIP trainer hackers are almost never fixed. That's not a coincidence, these specific hacks are probably not easy to patch up.

Nexon doesn't even acknowledge the issue of stack hack. How is that excusable?

Yes I admit that waiting for a boss for hours and hours is frustrating. But you can't extend that to say that they're not doing anything about this. Also botters have been around for YEARS. It's been so long since a botter actually CCed because I entered a map. They've been pretty up front about it for a long time now. You can choose to believe what you want about what Nexon does behind the scenes and I'm sure they're working on it. Their communication with the community isn't great. It never has been. As far as I can remember they've never publicly announced a specific hack until they patched it. Perhaps I just don't remember when they did. Regardless there is nothing wrong with their priorities as far as I'm concerned. There's only so much they can do at once and fixing this is better than fixing nothing at all.

Nexon made an unscheduled maintenence within 2-3 days of this exploit coming out yet Nexon lets hacks go for more than a month, while their GMs can't even tell who is actually hacking (I saw a SS on basil where a lone Kaiser was talking to a GM and the GM left shortly after without doing anything, the recent permaban list). Do you really not see anything wrong with that?

I remember when CPB first came out. A khaini team took it out and tried to sell the weapons off for max. The next day they lowered the prices to 1.6b. The day after even lower. No one WANTED CPB weapons because empress was so much cheaper and pretty much just as good. They shouldn't be selling for 50 mil I agree but it's no where near the degree you're suggesting. Empress equips were affordable even before stack hack. They were ~100 mil for the equips. It was only the weapon that was expensive. Last I checked weapons are still pretty pricey for popular classes. The prices have decreased yes. But has that had an effect on anything else in the economy? Last I checked everything else was still the same price it's been for the past while. There's been no real shift in prices of anything except for those two bosses. Even with stack hacks empress is still profitable for those who kill it. The economy hasn't changed in the past 6 months, not because of hacks anyways, and honestly I don't see why you think the economy is fucked.

Empress is indeed profitable but for most players it isn't worth waiting hours of their own time trying to get in with hackers killing full empress + deflation of drops