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Nexon Needs To Raise The Level Cap

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Nexon Needs To Raise The Level Cap
lorx
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#61
2012-03-10, 08:43 PM
Dark Link Wrote:It must have been oh so hard standing in one spot and spamming 1 button for hours on end.
I have no idea how you can call it "Challenging" when you played one of the most faceroll jobs at the time.

But he had to buy that auto-pot and three auto-buffs!

Yeah maple story is just not challenging in any way to me. Time consuming yes, but challenging, no way.
  • How to $: Sit in FM for hours spamming "S>X" and buying whatever you can flip. Lack of a proper market system means you can basically flip any item without much trouble.
    • How to fix: Auction House. No the mts does not count, it is Pineapple
  • How to EXP: autopot, autobuff, stand in place, hold down attack key. move once every couple minutes to refresh that "stop actually using skills" thing
    • How to fix: Pots on a global cooldown (not separate per pot, you know, what most other MMO's do), remove lolpotentiallol's ridiculous effect on damage output, actually balance stuff
  • How to boss: Read: How to EXP
    • How to fix: Above plus building bosses to actually work with the combat system for MS, movesets that aren't "#1: Global Damage #2: Summon adds #3: Global Debuff #4: Doesn't exist (Whoops Magic Crash lol)"

@srevwetv the answer you're looking for is nexon made bank. $ happened.
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Dark Link
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#62
2012-03-10, 09:00 PM
lorx Wrote:But he had to buy that auto-pot and three auto-buffs!

But, auto-buff didn't exist pre-BB during the "Ultimate Spam" era Sad
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Bremze
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#63
2012-03-10, 09:19 PM
lorx Wrote:But he had to buy that auto-pot and three auto-buffs!

Yeah maple story is just not challenging in any way to me. Time consuming yes, but challenging, no way.
  • How to $: Sit in FM for hours spamming "S>X" and buying whatever you can flip. Lack of a proper market system means you can basically flip any item without much trouble.
    • How to fix: Auction House. No the mts does not count, it is Pineapple
  • How to EXP: autopot, autobuff, stand in place, hold down attack key. move once every couple minutes to refresh that "stop actually using skills" thing
    • How to fix: Pots on a global cooldown (not separate per pot, you know, what most other MMO's do), remove lolpotentiallol's ridiculous effect on damage output, actually balance stuff
  • How to boss: Read: How to EXP
    • How to fix: Above plus building bosses to actually work with the combat system for MS, movesets that aren't "#1: Global Damage #2: Summon adds #3: Global Debuff #4: Doesn't exist (Whoops Magic Crash lol)"

@srevwetv the answer you're looking for is nexon made bank. $ happened.

I'd prefer that they just scrapped everything, slavishly copied the combat system from Ragnarok Battle Offline and slapped an overworld on top of dungeons/stages.
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Dark Link
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#64
2012-03-10, 09:57 PM
Bremze Wrote:I'd prefer that they just scrapped everything, slavishly copied the combat system from Ragnarok Battle Offline and slapped an overworld on top of dungeons/stages.

Wow, someone else who knows about RBO!
Although, the combat system for RBO isn't really that much better. Would be cool to have "Skill inputs" for all skills instead of just Aran.
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FrozNlite
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#65
2012-03-10, 10:01 PM
Dark Link Wrote:It must have been oh so hard standing in one spot and spamming 1 button for hours on end.
I have no idea how you can call it "Challenging" when you played one of the most faceroll jobs at the time.

Sure, I was one of the fastest levelers back in 2009.

Key words: back in 2009. The EXP/hr rates I pulled back then are a pittance compared to what any class is capable of now.

So don't give me any of that bullshit. The game was challenging for me because I balanced it in with a real life, as best as I could. And I didn't do the best job of it - my high school grades dropped for three years, my core group of friends since forever stopped calling to hang out, I never initiated anything because I was too busy trying to deal with dramatic e-peen queens and get into Zakum/HT runs on Friday/Saturday nights. Then there was that summer where I was so entrenched in playing I skipped everything to play 12-16 hours a day so I could do 170-200 in 3 months. Now will I openly proclaim that my grinding was literally jumping down a platform, climbing up a rope, and hitting Meteor Shower twice per cycle? Yes. It was super easy. But maintaining that maximum output from 2 am - 6 am every morning, going to sleep for four hours at most, then getting up and doing it all over again, while trying to "find a job" and dissuade parents from thinking you're ruining your life?

This isn't about me, though - this is about so many others out there with similar stories. I'm thankful many of you can reach the level cap now with barely any time or effort because it allows you to avoid such detrimental life choices many of us made back then.

Now yes, you had it much harder than I did as a Paladin playing for as long, if not longer, than myself. But you and anyone else with such condescending attitudes towards my story must not have a life outside of the internet, given your apparent lack of understanding at the real world sacrifices you make to achieve things online. That, or if you've experienced anything I've listed above due to your internet addiction, and still make such comments, you're completely delusional as to how real life works. None of this is normal, or healthy, and thus nothing to be proud of.

Good luck and grow up, kids.
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Eos
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#66
2012-03-10, 10:12 PM
Dark Link Wrote:It must have been oh so hard standing in one spot and spamming 1 button for hours on end.
I have no idea how you can call it "Challenging" when you played one of the most faceroll jobs at the time.

You severely underestimate both the scope of effort involved and the time, I think.

Regardless of what you think it involved, spamming newties was damn hard work, because you had to fund it first and foremost, which meant you couldn't afford to just sit there AFK. You blew a potion every cast. That meant you needed money, and you needed a supply train. You had to rush around, grabbing your drops or spend at least as much time merching as you did killing to try to afford to keep going, or charge for leech to keep it up.

Conveniently I have a nice visual representation of what it took to get to 200.

 Spoiler

Note those last two columns are time till next level, in hours and minutes. Of Non Stop Grinding, in the exact conditions currently employed. 56 hours of grinding doesn't sound like much, right? It's just a little over 2 days, except the average play time is supposed to be 4 hours or less. That makes a 56 hour grind the equivalent of 2 weeks worth of gameplay for the average player, a little less if they get more time on weekends. And that's one level.

It wasn't nearly so tape a button down and wander off as some people like to think.
We had streams of people wandering through at all times, cause we didn't have mini dungeons and every AM on the server needed those one maps per channel for the best XP, we had to stand in an area where getting hit was unavoidable in order to get as much of the map as possible, keep magic guard on at all times to stay alive, and note that every hit, which were 2 to 3 per blizzard, was another instant potion loss, circle the entire map if we wanted any loot at all, keep an HSer around just to entice another leecher to be able to afford one more hour, on and on and on.

The push to be in the top 5 was an incredible act of patience, strategy (look at how many ways we tested getting the best XP and tell me there wasn't strategy, or how to get potions with minimal interruption or loss of channel) and a terrific "challenge" of sanity and wits.

And yes I know the XP rates were like 30x worse for any other class, but the fact mages had it better was only by comparison, the effort was still very real, very insane, and the reward was to be told Congrats, there's nothing left for you to do.

Everyone; If it doesn't meet your definition of challenging you either have no idea what was actually involved, or have incredibly lofty standards. Either way, stop denigrating the accomplishments of others unless you've done the same thing in equal or worse conditions.
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Dark Link
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#67
2012-03-10, 10:14 PM
FrozNlite Wrote:Sure, I was one of the fastest levelers back in 2009.

Key words: back in 2009. The EXP/hr rates I pulled back then are a pittance compared to what any class is capable of now.

So don't give me any of that bullpomegranate. The game was challenging for me because I balanced it in with a real life, as best as I could. And I didn't do the best job of it - my high school grades dropped for three years, my core group of friends since forever stopped calling to hang out, I never initiated anything because I was too busy trying to deal with dramatic e-peen queens and get into Zakum/HT runs on Friday/Saturday nights. Then there was that summer where I was so entrenched in playing I skipped everything to play 12-16 hours a day so I could do 170-200 in 3 months. Now will I openly proclaim that my grinding was literally jumping down a platform, climbing up a rope, and hitting Meteor Shower twice per cycle? Yes. It was super easy. But maintaining that maximum output from 2 am - 6 am every morning, going to sleep for four hours at most, then getting up and doing it all over again, while trying to "find a job" and dissuade parents from thinking you're ruining your life?

This isn't about me, though - this is about so many others out there with similar stories. I'm thankful many of you can reach the level cap now with barely any time or effort because it allows you to avoid such detrimental life choices many of us made back then.

Now yes, you had it much harder than I did as a Paladin playing for as long, if not longer, than myself. But you and anyone else with such condescending attitudes towards my story must not have a life outside of the internet, given your apparent lack of understanding at the real world sacrifices you make to achieve things online. That, or if you've experienced anything I've listed above due to your internet addiction, and still make such comments, you're completely delusional as to how real life works. None of this is normal, or healthy, and thus nothing to be proud of.

Good luck and grow up, kids.

Like I'm any better? I almost flunked Junior and Senior year of High School. I flat out bombed 3 years of college as well.
You believe you have/had it bad? You clearly don't know what I've been through these past 6 years...
You know what I am right now? A jobless college drop out. Am I looking for sympathy? Hell no, it's my fault I've gone down this path and it's my job to fix it.

I was in my mid 180s on my Paladin when Big Bang hit. If I gave two pomegranates about leveling back then, which I never did and I still don't now, I could have hit 200 long ago, yet I didn't, but that doesn't suddenly make my level 200 worth jack pomegranate just because you had it "Harder" with your Meteor spam, which is laughable at best.

@Eos, one of my RL sisters was a Bishop during that time, I know all about the whole shindig you guys had to go through. The only difference was she detested leech by a long shot so she never got involved in that business. Before we got Mini Dungeons, I was stuck at "Peak of the Big Nest", because I didn't have access to a bishop at all times. Any chance I had at the Skelegon and/or Newtie map near instantly became 0-1%, because I didn't have connections.
I don't know about "Funding" though as any bishop who had Gen30 seemed to automatically have the power to start OHKOing Skele regardless of their equips.
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Mazz
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#68
2012-03-10, 10:19 PM
This thread got really depressing pretty quickly.
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Andross
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#69
2012-03-10, 11:41 PM
Bremze Wrote:I call this "Maplestory Stockholm syndrome". No, the community hasn't gotten less mature. It never has been particularly mature in the first place, seems like you judge the whole community by just a small sampling of friends and acquaintances. You also manage to completely ignoring the rampart hacking that has been going on since day 1 almost. Remember how the devs said that they would be withholding Ossyria if people continue to hack so much? Remember how there where months, when you couldn't find an empty channel because they all where taken by vac hackers who would just come up to you and start up their hacks in your face?

No, I'm pretty sure the community was a lot better back when leveling was harder. When leveling was harder, it acted like a kind of filter: once you got past a certain level you had to be pretty committed to the game to keep going. Let's say back before 4th job came out for example. If you were level 70 it meant that you had spend weeks or months grinding, and in that time you met other people your level because hey, party exp makes it go by a little better and as a bonus you have some people to talk to. Aside from that there were still party quests, you usually met some people there who you'd buddy and meet up later to grind or pq or whatever. As a result, most people were pretty friendly even if they weren't the most talkative people, because grinding by yourself once you got high enough got boring for most people. But let's say you're one of those people that likes going solo, if you were level 70 before 4th job it still meant you'd spent a ton of time in the game. Most people playing would get up to level 20 or 30 and quit because "this game sucks, grinding is boring and it's really slow".

Nexon realized that if they made the game more accessible they could attract more players (and make more money), so that was the point of Big Bang. They revamped levels of monsters and some areas to change things up for preexisting players and scaled back the leveling to make it easier for new players to come in. When it became easier to just jump in and start leveling it changed Maple's target audience. Suddenly it's much easier to start up and by the time the grinding really starts you have all these cool flashy moves and a ton of levels so instead of people quitting at level 20 or 30 we have people sticking around until 70 because hey, why stop now?

There was still hacking, but there were also active GMs running around who would make announcements when they banned people. Did that stop all of it? Of course not, but you definitely wouldn't have the kind of situation like we had where hackers went to the christmas event and vac hacked all the items. Granted, this is just one time period in the game, but I'm not really sure what your point is in this. Do you mean that hacking was indicative of the community at large? There are only 20 channels per world, if a map has great drops and it's widely known then are you really saying that those 20 people spread across 1 per channel in those maps represent the thousands that play on that server? Come on, man.

Bremze Wrote:While I'm sure you've had good times playing this game, it doesn't absolve it from being a thinly veiled progress quest. That you used "working hard" as a way to describe Maplestory just seals it.

EDIT:You're asking people to respect you because you've sunk immense amounts of time into a videogame. Think about that.

No one's saying it's not a progress quest. You could make that case about pretty much any game because it is literally the point of a video game to make progress towards a goal, whether that goal is defeating the final boss, saving the planet, or in maple's case reaching the max level (or whatever goal you make for it, there isn't so much an end goal as a bunch of goals that you can work towards). You don't think grinding up to 200 is hard? Fine, for you it's the easiest thing and you might love it but for others of us it's not and saying "Heh, you guys are acting like a bunch of manchildren. This isn't work, it was easy for me and so if you think otherwise you're just complaining and looking back through rose-tinted glasses" is insulting as hell to anyone who spent their time getting there. You're being condescending as pineapple, dude.
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bast963
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#70
2012-03-10, 11:45 PM
Challenging/hard/difficult: You jump quest instead of grind levels. 180-200 in 2008 required 9001 JQs, each one like 5 maps long, and they're randomly generated every time. THAT'S challenging. Big bang version: only 1000 JQs to get 180-200.

The bullpomegranate you see at LHC and pre-BB newts with ultimate nuking is just time consumption up the ass. This game always sucked because the endgame bosses consisted of a crapload of fake difficulty (weapon/magic cancel? dispel? DAMAGE REFLECT? These aren't difficulties, they're just nuisances), the endgame equips are missing (show me the lvl 200 gear that makes you hit a damage cap of seven 9s (instead of six) without potential), and the rest of the endgame content consists of the same pineappleing maps that you would have 100% accuracy on since late 3rd job.

Oh sure, we have stronghold, but nobody ever goes there. Yeah, we have level 140 gear, but where is the 150/160/170/180/190/200 gear? Calling DR during bosses isn't difficulty, it's an attempt at avoiding an auto-wipe to some pomegranate boss buff WoW will never ever see.
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FrozNlite
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#71
2012-03-11, 12:38 AM
@Eos said it perfectly, with a phenomenal visual for those still judging. Was the method of achieving max EXP/hr gain the most technically challenging in all of video game history for AMs back in 2009 or before? God no, and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. But Eos eloquently stated the other very real elements of that type of grinding that made it a true challenge, elements completely beyond the extremely narrowed focus of "technical challenge," such as financially supporting the endeavor, reacting to real-time environmental changes like other people/ksers/hackers coming into your map, figuring out how to perfectly maximize your EXP/hr output. I wish I had the sheets of paper I used to do my EXP/hr calculations on so I could upload them for you all to see. I filled pages of computer paper with tiny handwritten scribbles using Speed Pills as 10 minute timers and a calculator to incessantly ensure I was on track.

Look, I could say a bunch more, but Eos summed it up pretty well. All I'll say is to fully pass some semblance reasonable judgment on another player's experiences, you need to consider every facet of that experience and the relative difficult associated with each - or, as Eos said, "have accomplished the same thing under equal or worse conditions."

Dark Link Wrote:Like I'm any better? I almost flunked Junior and Senior year of High School. I flat out bombed 3 years of college as well.
You believe you have/had it bad? You clearly don't know what I've been through these past 6 years...
You know what I am right now? A jobless college drop out. Am I looking for sympathy? Hell no, it's my fault I've gone down this path and it's my job to fix it.

I was in my mid 180s on my Paladin when Big Bang hit. If I gave two pomegranates about leveling back then, which I never did and I still don't now, I could have hit 200 long ago, yet I didn't, but that doesn't suddenly make my level 200 worth jack pomegranate just because you had it "Harder" with your Meteor spam, which is laughable at best.

I'm honestly sympathetic and sorry for you. I'm not trying to sit behind my computer and demean your life, and I really hope you're not taking it that way. I made the comments I did because I don't want others going down the same, self-destructive path I did, and seeing your current status as such breaks my heart.

I never said I had it harder than you; in fact, in the first sentence of the last paragraph of my post you quoted I explicitly acknowledged you had a more difficult experience than I did. I think I knew you back in the day, along with a number of other high level Paladins in Khaini, and I respect you guys because you did have it harder than us, and did constantly experience the same "LOLPALLY" "LOLFP" "LOLIL" pomegranate we did. All I'm trying to argue, like Eos, is that just because, for a limited time, we had it easier than other classes in one very specific aspect of grinding, doesn't mean the overall effort in reaching Lv. 200 was a piece of cake.

Finally, @Andross explained the game very well with regards to the community and various indirect filters. It's difficult to approach the community from that perspective now if you didn't experience it back then (rough time frame, again, of 2006-08/09), because those filters associated with leveling no longer exist.
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The Great One
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#72
2012-03-11, 01:01 AM
FrozNlite Wrote:Sure, I was one of the fastest levelers back in 2009.

Key words: back in 2009. The EXP/hr rates I pulled back then are a pittance compared to what any class is capable of now.

So don't give me any of that bullpomegranate. The game was challenging for me because I balanced it in with a real life, as best as I could. And I didn't do the best job of it - my high school grades dropped for three years, my core group of friends since forever stopped calling to hang out, I never initiated anything because I was too busy trying to deal with dramatic e-peen queens and get into Zakum/HT runs on Friday/Saturday nights. Then there was that summer where I was so entrenched in playing I skipped everything to play 12-16 hours a day so I could do 170-200 in 3 months. Now will I openly proclaim that my grinding was literally jumping down a platform, climbing up a rope, and hitting Meteor Shower twice per cycle? Yes. It was super easy. But maintaining that maximum output from 2 am - 6 am every morning, going to sleep for four hours at most, then getting up and doing it all over again, while trying to "find a job" and dissuade parents from thinking you're ruining your life?

This isn't about me, though - this is about so many others out there with similar stories. I'm thankful many of you can reach the level cap now with barely any time or effort because it allows you to avoid such detrimental life choices many of us made back then.

Now yes, you had it much harder than I did as a Paladin playing for as long, if not longer, than myself. But you and anyone else with such condescending attitudes towards my story must not have a life outside of the internet, given your apparent lack of understanding at the real world sacrifices you make to achieve things online. That, or if you've experienced anything I've listed above due to your internet addiction, and still make such comments, you're completely delusional as to how real life works. None of this is normal, or healthy, and thus nothing to be proud of.

Good luck and grow up, kids.

Sounds like a personal problem. You turned a game, something to enjoy into a job and to hell with everything else still doesn't change the fact that it isn't hard just really really time consuming.

No one was forcing you to try and be in the top 5 or get to lvl 200 in three months from 170 these are things you decided to do on your own. It wasn't hard it just required time and patience. It's an accomplishment none the less. Just stop going around and saying how hard it was it never was.

Edit: The facts eos pointed out didn't make it harder it just made it so you have to budget time to funding and things of that nature. It required you put more time into the game Again not something hard to do it just requires more patenice and determination.
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bast963
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#73
2012-03-11, 01:07 AM
FrozNlite Wrote:I'm honestly sympathetic and sorry for you. I'm not trying to sit behind my computer and demean your life, and I really hope you're not taking it that way. I made the comments I did because I don't want others going down the same, self-destructive path I did, and seeing your current status as such breaks my heart.

I never said I had it harder than you; in fact, in the first sentence of the last paragraph of my post you quoted I explicitly acknowledged you had a more difficult experience than I did. I think I knew you back in the day, along with a number of other high level Paladins in Khaini, and I respect you guys because you did have it harder than us, and did constantly experience the same "LOLPALLY" "LOLFP" "LOLIL" pomegranate we did. All I'm trying to argue, like Eos, is that just because, for a limited time, we had it easier than other classes in one very specific aspect of grinding, doesn't mean the overall effort in reaching Lv. 200 was a piece of cake.

Here's how "hard" old Maple was: My highest characters ever were a 57 Cleric, then a 64 NW, then a 60 Aran. Then I got hacked because Nexon's PIN system was flawed and they switched to PIC. Back then, I couldn't even get to 3rd job because of how bad this game is. I'm impressed with the great "sit around and not get bored grinding on Maple" skills you and Eos and many others had back then.

Shortly before BB, like during the Halloween and visitor events, I managed to get to 107 on my Aran through increased patience. Today, my Aran is 171 thanks to the new curve and the return of ridiculous multipliers I had back then during my Aran's third job (welcome back, over 6 times the original exp Rolleyes). Honestly, I can't reach 200 because my interest and patience with this game ran out a long time ago.
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Andross
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#74
2012-03-11, 02:11 AM
bast963 Wrote:Here's how "hard" old Maple was: My highest characters ever were a 57 Cleric, then a 64 NW, then a 60 Aran. Then I got hacked because Nexon's PIN system was flawed and they switched to PIC. Back then, I couldn't even get to 3rd job because of how bad this game is. I'm impressed with the great "sit around and not get bored grinding on Maple" skills you and Eos and many others had back then.

Shortly before BB, like during the Halloween and visitor events, I managed to get to 107 on my Aran through increased patience. Today, my Aran is 171 thanks to the new curve and the return of ridiculous multipliers I had back then during my Aran's third job (welcome back, over 6 times the original exp Rolleyes). Honestly, I can't reach 200 because my interest and patience with this game ran out a long time ago.

Every point (except one) you're making has been addressed in detail by someone so far but you keep saying the same things. The one thing that hasn't really been touched on is how you're talking about Maple's fake difficulty when dealing with bosses, which is kind of a difficult problem to tackle. Bosses in MMOs have to be difficult enough to challenge players, which can be done in tons of ways like dealing a ton of damage but having little health or dealing little damage but having tons of health or whatever. I know my examples are cliche, but the problem with Maple's bosses is that they ran into a problem once potential came out. If you're making items available that make players significantly stronger then you have to have stronger bosses, right? But potential isn't something that's required in-game. You can rant all you want about it being required because other people having it but if someone were, say, to have amazingly scrolled equips (normal scrolls can all be acquired naturally, and it's certainly possible to have an amazing piece of equipment without using potential or cash items, the chance is just significantly lower and time invested goes way up without the use of items like pam's song) it would be perfectly possible for them to go the entire game, ignoring most "big" bosses like Horntail or Zakum until they were highly leveled enough to take them on. How do you handle those players who choose to not take advantage of the potential system? Nexon can't just ignore them because they'd essentially be forcing players to pay to have enough damage to win. They can't scale bosses back for those players because it would ruin the game, anyone who did take advantage of the system would automatically be ahead.

What they did was introduce methods of making players work together during bosses, which was probably also an attempt to bring the community a little closer again. If you're fighting a boss that can cancel weapon attacks, their reasoning was that we'd want a mage along just in case. But what happens if we just buff ourselves to hell and back? The boss can dispel us, keeping us on our toes, which is most likely also the reasoning behind damage reflect. The problem is that while keeping things like these in, they also wanted to provide enough of an incentive for players to buy NX and use the potential system, so they buffed up bosses regardless, which honestly at this point feels a bit overkill depending on what you're doing. It leads to some rather bad situations, like the speculation that Emperess literally couldn't be killed because they coded her that way so when the next tier of potential was released players would buy it. I can't speak for the truth of it, but Nexon's credibility in this particular situation isn't too strong.
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#75
2012-03-11, 03:16 AM
Andross Wrote:There was still hacking, but there were also active GMs running around who would make announcements when they banned people. Did that stop all of it? Of course not, but you definitely wouldn't have the kind of situation like we had where hackers went to the christmas event and vac hacked all the items.

Speaking of rose-tinted glasses, I only remember them doing the ban announcements for about 3-4 weeks. Plus, about 1/10 of the names were legit players they'd accidentally banned.
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Bremze
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#76
2012-03-11, 04:26 AM
Andross Wrote:No, I'm pretty sure the community was a lot better back when leveling was harder. When leveling was harder, it acted like a kind of filter: once you got past a certain level you had to be pretty committed to the game to keep going. Let's say back before 4th job came out for example. If you were level 70 it meant that you had spend weeks or months grinding, and in that time you met other people your level because hey, party exp makes it go by a little better and as a bonus you have some people to talk to. Aside from that there were still party quests, you usually met some people there who you'd buddy and meet up later to grind or pq or whatever. As a result, most people were pretty friendly even if they weren't the most talkative people, because grinding by yourself once you got high enough got boring for most people. But let's say you're one of those people that likes going solo, if you were level 70 before 4th job it still meant you'd spent a ton of time in the game. Most people playing would get up to level 20 or 30 and quit because "this game sucks, grinding is boring and it's really slow".

Nexon realized that if they made the game more accessible they could attract more players (and make more money), so that was the point of Big Bang. They revamped levels of monsters and some areas to change things up for preexisting players and scaled back the leveling to make it easier for new players to come in. When it became easier to just jump in and start leveling it changed Maple's target audience. Suddenly it's much easier to start up and by the time the grinding really starts you have all these cool flashy moves and a ton of levels so instead of people quitting at level 20 or 30 we have people sticking around until 70 because hey, why stop now?

Again, you're judging the whole community from a small clique that you've had. There has always been a ton of high level people posting the regular inanities on Basil, it's just that the high level playerbase was smaller, so it was easier to split the wheat from the chaff and goes right into the rose-tinted glasses department.

Quote:There was still hacking, but there were also active GMs running around who would make announcements when they banned people. Did that stop all of it? Of course not, but you definitely wouldn't have the kind of situation like we had where hackers went to the christmas event and vac hacked all the items. Granted, this is just one time period in the game, but I'm not really sure what your point is in this. Do you mean that hacking was indicative of the community at large? There are only 20 channels per world, if a map has great drops and it's widely known then are you really saying that those 20 people spread across 1 per channel in those maps represent the thousands that play on that server? Come on, man.

Hah, active GM's? There was a time when 17/20 channels of EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE starting from zombies to maladies were hacked. What I was trying to say, is that there hasn't been a time when Maplestory has been without issues. The olden times definitely weren't better.

Quote:No one's saying it's not a progress quest. You could make that case about pretty much any game because it is literally the point of a video game to make progress towards a goal, whether that goal is defeating the final boss, saving the planet, or in maple's case reaching the max level (or whatever goal you make for it, there isn't so much an end goal as a bunch of goals that you can work towards). You don't think grinding up to 200 is hard? Fine, for you it's the easiest thing and you might love it but for others of us it's not and saying "Heh, you guys are acting like a bunch of manchildren. This isn't work, it was easy for me and so if you think otherwise you're just complaining and looking back through rose-tinted glasses" is insulting as hell to anyone who spent their time getting there. You're being condescending as pineapple, dude.

I thought that games where supposed to be fun? I'm being condescending as pineapple, because you guys sound like people from an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.


The Great One Wrote:Sounds like a personal problem. You turned a game, something to enjoy into a job and to hell with everything else still doesn't change the fact that it isn't hard just really really time consuming.

No one was forcing you to try and be in the top 5 or get to lvl 200 in three months from 170 these are things you decided to do on your own. It wasn't hard it just required time and patience. It's an accomplishment none the less. Just stop going around and saying how hard it was it never was.

Basically this.
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bast963
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#77
2012-03-11, 09:58 AM
Andross Wrote:Every point (except one) you're making has been addressed in detail by someone so far but you keep saying the same things.

Well, most of the thread was tl;dr because all the posts were just as long as yours.

What I meant was that we get less cancels and reflects, and more "move out of the way of an attack or get hit for 999k" for some real difficulty.
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KhainiWest
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#78
2012-03-11, 12:36 PM
Bremze Wrote:Again, you're judging the whole community from a small clique that you've had. There has always been a ton of high level people posting the regular inanities on Basil, it's just that the high level playerbase was smaller, so it was easier to split the wheat from the chaff and goes right into the rose-tinted glasses department.

The community was fine in 2006. The reason being was we needed eachother. Our damage was pitiful which was why we had to do viking parties, we could manage small groups but not the entire map. Nowadays with all the new speed skills and potential they stripped that very idea from the game. It's become soloms. Even zombies, the only maps that weren't shared were z2 and thats because z3/z4 could be divided.

As for the hacked maps you're mentioning, really the only maps hacked were ones that were very underpopulated or quest related ones. I agree MS has always had problems, but manageable ones, what we're dealing with is not manageable. Before botters made faster money than legit's but dc hack didn't exist. They now control every aspect of our gameplay now, before it was a small part of the market.



Bremze Wrote:Hah, active GM's? There was a time when 17/20 channels of EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE starting from zombies to maladies were hacked. What I was trying to say, is that there hasn't been a time when Maplestory has been without issues. The olden times definitely weren't better.




Bremze Wrote:I thought that games where supposed to be fun? I'm being condescending as pineapple, because you guys sound like people from an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

The fun argument is stupid. Of course every game is fun, that's why you keep playing it. But every game also has frustration, and a goal you want to accomplish within it. The point of all these posts is to show the challenge is being able to maintain that time and resources. Maplestory isn't about just pressing one button and leveling. It's discovering your most efficient route, interacting with the community to accelerate and support you, and knowing what skills benefit you the most. There's plenty of difficulty just different types of difficulties. No game is truely difficult besides that Darkness or w/e by your logic and that's simply not true.



Bremze Wrote:Basically this.

Basically wrong
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Bremze
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#79
2012-03-12, 08:01 AM
KhainiWest Wrote:The community was fine in 2006. The reason being was we needed eachother. Our damage was pitiful which was why we had to do viking parties, we could manage small groups but not the entire map. Nowadays with all the new speed skills and potential they stripped that very idea from the game. It's become soloms. Even zombies, the only maps that weren't shared were z2 and thats because z3/z4 could be divided.

As for the hacked maps you're mentioning, really the only maps hacked were ones that were very underpopulated or quest related ones. I agree MS has always had problems, but manageable ones, what we're dealing with is not manageable. Before botters made faster money than legit's but dc hack didn't exist. They now control every aspect of our gameplay now, before it was a small part of the market.

The high level community was much smaller back then and as such, there where less bad apples, not that there weren't any at all. You probably remember KS wars and silly things like that.

Hackers didn't need to dc hack, because they could vac mobs right in your face to kill you and would go on unpunished. And that was about 2005/06 or so. If you remember, there was a flash game called Hunter story with Maplestory sprites. Someone made a parody a bit later called Mage story, where a hacker goes into your map and proceeds to vac everything next to him.

Quote:The fun argument is stupid. Of course every game is fun, that's why you keep playing it. But every game also has frustration, and a goal you want to accomplish within it. The point of all these posts is to show the challenge is being able to maintain that time and resources. Maplestory isn't about just pressing one button and leveling. It's discovering your most efficient route, interacting with the community to accelerate and support you, and knowing what skills benefit you the most. There's plenty of difficulty just different types of difficulties. No game is truely difficult besides that Darkness or w/e by your logic and that's simply not true.

The fun argument is very much valid. You really want to say that you find the underlying mechanics fun? I'd give you that it's sandbox, albeit very restricted one, for emergent gameplay, but Nexon have gone out of their way to make that unfeasible. You're saying that the game is theorycrafting, but it's just a drop in the ocean when compared to the time spent pulling the one-armed bandit. Maplestory has never been good at the "game" part, but it has proven to be an amazing time sink. It's just that people(including me) start seeing it as a commitment and play it far after they've stopped having fun.
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KhainiWest
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#80
2012-03-12, 08:34 AM
Bremze Wrote:The high level community was much smaller back then and as such, there where less bad apples, not that there weren't any at all. You probably remember KS wars and silly things like that.

Ks wars at maps that were soloable, not maps like Ludi. You can't compare the community like that because the level cap made it a social norm, because it's become so feasible. Level 200 is what level 120 was back in 2006/07. The community was better simply because we had to work together to get better exp and better gear. Today we can solo empress(unglitched), why do I need a guild, a buddy list, I can do everything myself. That's what makes that time different from then. Even in ks wars it was guilds not dc hacks.

Bremze Wrote:Hackers didn't need to dc hack, because they could vac mobs right in your face to kill you and would go on unpunished. And that was about 2005/06 or so. If you remember, there was a flash game called Hunter story with Maplestory sprites. Someone made a parody a bit later called Mage story, where a hacker goes into your map and proceeds to vac everything next to him.

Hackers can vac hack now, I assure you if they could dc hack in the past they would have. Controlling a map vs controlling your very gameplay, which ones worse? Common sense says the later. DC hack wasn't discovered until early 07 and it's been abused ever since, you think vac hacking just stopped?

Bremze Wrote:The fun argument is very much valid. You really want to say that you find the underlying mechanics fun? I'd give you that it's sandbox, albeit very restricted one, for emergent gameplay, but Nexon have gone out of their way to make that unfeasible. You're saying that the game is theorycrafting, but it's just a drop in the ocean when compared to the time spent pulling the one-armed bandit. Maplestory has never been good at the "game" part, but it has proven to be an amazing time sink. It's just that people(including me) start seeing it as a commitment and play it far after they've stopped having fun.

Yes maplestory's charm and simplicity is what makes it fun. Even for you, it was fun, before it became a job. That's why the fun argument is stupid, you strip the fun out of it because the only form of competitive gameplay is who kills faster. It's your own perspective that kill's it not the game. I assure you if Nexon actually managed the game properly it be one of the most prominent games of our generation. The problem is hackers have destroyed it, to the point where no legitimate player can play it. It wasn't like that in 06-07, hackers took maps, maps are replaceble, they took over quest items, quest rewards you didnt need, but they never took your ability to log on, to market, to train, to boss, and to train all together in a mere 3 second interval.
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