[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music.

Yea it's an ongoing complaint that's completely redundant.

What the fuqqqqqqqqqqqqq? Whats the diffrence between the ToT map?

Looks like mages now have a UA skill that actually increases DPM, unless the reduction from my ewand is applied to DoT (the boost doesn't affect ice demon's DoT but I'm not completely sure about reduction).

Until they increase the damage %, its still looks like a pointless ck skill to use.

A 178 i/l archmage had gears at pap and the damage was disappointing.
He only used it once in the beginning as well.

I waited an entire week for another patch, with the hopes that this one would be a Magician patch, but nope >:C

Ah well, this means one of two things:

1) They'll be working on changing all classes, one per KMS patch for a while
2) They honestly think that warriors are the only unbalanced class, which would make me sad.

Since they updated the warrior hero's will and made new skills from earlier jobs giving +main/secondary stats (physical training), the other classes may get similar balancing before this comes to KMS.

What the fuqqqqqqqqqqqqq? Whats the diffrence between the ToT map?

Look at the doors.

Things like buff applications, that's a minuscule factor in the long run. If one class does 10% extra damage every minute, a few extra buffs aren't going to negate that.

Oh really? If a buff lasts for 2 seconds (Combat Orders, for example), that's 2/60 seconds or 1/30 minutes gone. 10% extra damage per minute with 1/30 of the minute gone is quite a lot if you add up everything - that 10% extra per minute essentially then becomes only 6.3% extra per minute. Granted that we don't rebuff the same skill every minute, but you kinda see where I'm going, I hope.

And besides, the buffs are just an example of one of many things that people don't consider in these calculations - Paladins in particular have a huge set of buffs that aren't exactly fast except done on a rope.

I'd like to know how many calculations out there honestly take into consideration of Threaten effects/probability and other skills which ignores monster PDR such as Combat Mastery. What about a Paladin's 94% mastery compared to a Hero's 70%? Skills like Guardian repelling a monster away? Your own character's knock-back rate and thus DPS changes due to Stance level differences with and without CO? Chances of attack stunning/freezing a mob so that the mob does not attack back and lowering the probability of your character being KBed/attacks being interrupted? The characters' mobility and mobbing ability (e.g. Monster Magnet used in conjunction with Rush vs. no Monster Magnet, etc)? What about Heaven's Hammer (although not killing the mobs) aggroing the mobs towards you and essentially used as an AOE mobbing skill while rest of the map may be dealt with normally?

Yeah sure, class X does game breaking damage if you consider the perfect scenario in which everything is mobbed together or if you consider single target DPS only...

Like...really? What's the point of doing these calculations again if we aren't going to be practical?

No model is perfectly accurate, yet some are useful - but only if applied practically. And I dare say that very few of the above factors I listed are negligible.

Then why are you there?

The only reason any class should not be at LHC is if they're hunting PoT. That's it.
Training anywhere else is subpar.

Yes, I realize that training anywhere other than LHC is slower, but that doesn't mean that the mobs outside of LHC should be destroyed ten times over by a singe attack. I would prefer the warrior classes be balanced out while keeping the same amount of strength that they currently possess in GMS.

As for why I'm anywhere other than LHC. I kind of enjoy walking around and hunting random monsters as well as doing quests, and I especially enjoyed wandering pre-BB when most enemies my level were actually taking more than 3 hits to kill and could actually hurt me. But I feel like doing that will become significantly less entertaining when absolutely nothing can so much as become agroed toward me because they die the moment I attack. It's one thing if the monster is 10 levels below me, but with warriors the way they are, I'll be one hit killing monsters that are even above my level.

Oh really? If a buff lasts for 2 seconds (Combat Orders, for example), that's 2/60 seconds or 1/30 minutes gone. 10% extra damage per minute with 1/30 of the minute gone is quite a lot if you add up everything - that 10% extra per minute essentially then becomes only 6.3% extra per minute. Granted that we don't rebuff the same skill every minute, but you kinda see where I'm going, I hope.

And besides, the buffs are just an example of one of many things that people don't consider in these calculations - Paladins in particular have a huge set of buffs that aren't exactly fast except done on a rope.

I'd like to know how many calculations out there honestly take into consideration of Threaten effects/probability and other skills which ignores monster PDR such as Combat Mastery. What about a Paladin's 94% mastery compared to a Hero's 70%? Skills like Guardian repelling a monster away? Your own character's knock-back rate and thus DPS changes due to Stance level differences with and without CO? Chances of attack stunning/freezing a mob so that the mob does not attack back and lowering the probability of your character being KBed/attacks being interrupted? The characters' mobility and mobbing ability (e.g. Monster Magnet used in conjunction with Rush vs. no Monster Magnet, etc)? What about Heaven's Hammer (although not killing the mobs) aggroing the mobs towards you and essentially used as an AOE mobbing skill while rest of the map may be dealt with normally?

Yeah sure, class X does game breaking damage if you consider the perfect scenario in which everything is mobbed together or if you consider single target DPS only...

Like...really? What's the point of doing these calculations again if we aren't going to be practical?

No model is perfectly accurate, yet some are useful - but only if applied practically. And I dare say that very few of the above factors I listed are negligible.

Do you play the same game? We are playing MS where all the skill needed to play is to hold down 1 button. Have you ever bossed?

Do you play the same game? We are playing MS where all the skill needed to play is to hold down 1 button. Have you ever bossed?

His post really doesn't have much to do the difficulty of the game. He's just saying that there's a bunch of other factors that can affect DPS, since if you want to be accurate, you have to consider the time it takes to buff, what happens if don't have stance and have to keep walking back, etc.

His post really doesn't have much to do the difficulty of the game. He's just saying that there's a bunch of other factors that can affect DPS, since if you want to be accurate, you have to consider the time it takes to buff, what happens if don't have stance and have to keep walking back, etc.

Everyone has to buff 2 or 3 lost seconds buffing is nothing and not everyone buffs the second before they expire. If you get kbed learn to jump and attack or to tank hits.

Jump attack at boss after being hit? Last time I checked, this game's horizontal jump distance is solely dependent on the character's speed. Are you pineappleing kidding me? Unless you're a ranged (non BM) and want to possibly totally misplace your character, or risk falling off platforms or end up hugging a boss, you would NOT be jump attacking after being KBed by an attack - you'd be walking and repositioning yourself before attacking. And guess what? That rate of you getting hit would be major time lost factor on your DPS!

And since when has the focus about DPS become solely bossing? If it's not all about bossing, then I hope it's clear why the points I raised are important.

But since you're so stuck in your head about DPS => bossing, then allow me to proceed onto my next point.

Does it really matter all that much - both pre-LHC and post-LHC?

Not sure about your server, but as far as I can see throughout the forums/buddy chat/guild chat...pre-LHC bosses like Zak, HT, etc...the amount of waiting it takes to get into the run due to other runners, channel hoggers, dc hackers, Windows disconnection issues, etc. is very well on the order of the actual duration of the boss run itself - if not many times more. I can argue that your % of exp/hour gained at bossing is greatly diminished due to the amount of waiting and time it takes to prepare for the run. Thus, whether or not your boss run itself lasts 20 minutes or 25 minutes due to class differences, would actually be very negligible compared to total time spent - and you'll be better off training normally. Besides, you're limited to how many times you can boss daily anyway.

The only place where time is really a constraint and where class DPS tier would matter at then, would be PB (and just in the past 2 days, PB has been downed in my server 3 times) - and again, how many damage calculations out there take into consideration of skills which affect monster PDR, PDR ignore rate, mastery rate, different elemental advantages/disadvantages (Huginn, Muninn, Ariel, etc.), Mini-Bean summon rates affecting single target DPS classes, etc?

At LHC - class variations in DPS barely matter - as most exp are gained through having more members in the party - and not through who has the biggest e-penor in damage and gets white exp or the most exp out of ~50k (non party exp).

So seriously, is class-relative DPS really that big of a deal on a more practical standpoint? If so, what use is peaching about assumptive analysis before being sure about game mechanics and seeing things in action? If not, why bother at all?

P.S. Thanks Stereo for supporting my buffs point in the following post.

Everyone has to buff 2 or 3 lost seconds buffing is nothing and not everyone buffs the second before they expire. If you get kbed learn to jump and attack or to tank hits.

9.5 seconds on my Paladin to get fully buffed, and the skills have
80s
90s
100s
180s
200s
200s
200/330s (ice+fire, holy)
240s
300s
Cooldowns.
Looked at over a 5 minute period, that's 2.625 + 6.67 + 2.1 + 3.33 + 3 * 1.05 + .875 + .7 = 19.45 seconds.

That means I spend at least 6.5% of my time casting buffs...

Heroes got buffed quite a bit.

Brave Slash + 6x Coma, Panic on cooldown when you have 10 orbs 6 mobs:
8910%/s

Monster Magnet + Panic (Manual 8~10 orb) 6 mobs:
~7940%/s
Monster Magnet + 9x Coma + Panic on cooldown when you have 10 orbs 6 mobs:
8710%/s

Brave Slash + Panic Macro 3 mobs:
~4860%/s
Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 3 mobs:
~5240%/s

Enrage Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 1v1:
3259%/s
Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 1v1:
2037%/s

Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 6 mobs:
8306%/s
Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 3 mobs:
4208%/s
Holy Lightning Blast:
1623%/s

Berserk Dark Impale 6 mobs:
7543%/s -> 7828%/s
Berserk Dark Impale 3 mobs:
3829%/s -> 3971%/s
Berserk Sacrifice:
1472%/s

Did you include elemental advantage and critical for paladin? and ACB hits 7 mobs.

I might be missing something, but isn't spamming a single skill what most classes do?

So you're advocating boring game play just because it's the standard?

My favorite part of LHC is actually having to pay attention to mob size to determine whether I use Blast or ACB.
Drks, meanwhile, have had the benefit all along of choosing between Crusher/Fury and had Sacrifice added as a viable attack in Big Bang.
Now they're dumbing down the play style for the sake of giving them a new skill.

No model is perfectly accurate, yet some are useful - but only if applied practically. And I dare say that very few of the above factors I listed are negligible.

Well let's see.

Oh really? If a buff lasts for 2 seconds (Combat Orders, for example), that's 2/60 seconds or 1/30 minutes gone. 10% extra damage per minute with 1/30 of the minute gone is quite a lot if you add up everything - that 10% extra per minute essentially then becomes only 6.3% extra per minute. Granted that we don't rebuff the same skill every minute, but you kinda see where I'm going, I hope.

What version of CO are you looking at that lasts two seconds? Last I checked, it's 1.5 seconds.

Of course, the biggest atrocity in your math is how flagrantly you dismiss that, no, you won't ever be casting your buffs every minute. Combat Orders, for example, last three.
So that becomes 1.5/180 or .8% of every minute.
I see where you're attempting to go, but your logic is faulty.

Negligible? Yes.

And besides, the buffs are just an example of one of many things that people don't consider in these calculations - Paladins in particular have a huge set of buffs that aren't exactly fast except done on a rope.

I'd argue with this, but I'm not sure what you're saying.
Buffs are just an example and then you give another example that is... buffs?

I'd like to know how many calculations out there honestly take into consideration of Threaten effects/probability and other skills which ignores monster PDR such as Combat Mastery. What about a Paladin's 94% mastery compared to a Hero's 70%? Skills like Guardian repelling a monster away? Your own character's knock-back rate and thus DPS changes due to Stance level differences with and without CO? Chances of attack stunning/freezing a mob so that the mob does not attack back and lowering the probability of your character being KBed/attacks being interrupted? The characters' mobility and mobbing ability (e.g. Monster Magnet used in conjunction with Rush vs. no Monster Magnet, etc)? What about Heaven's Hammer (although not killing the mobs) aggroing the mobs towards you and essentially used as an AOE mobbing skill while rest of the map may be dealt with normally?

Dusk's account for Threaten, mastery, and PDRate.

I'll address the rest of the complaints on a point-by-point basis:
- Curious how Guardian's KB skill affects DPM at a boss. Especially the grand amount that are immobile. I'd say it has negligible effects.
- As for a character getting KB'd, I'd love how you would go about doing the math on that. Feel free to go ahead and try. At the end of the day, Palis having near-100% Stance isn't going to make up for Heroes doing three times their damage. It becomes negligible by relativity.
- Any mob that can be stunned/frozen should be dying in less than three hits, which can always be preformed before a mob and thinks to attack. Negligible for sure.
- Also curious how you'd calculate the affect of Monster Magnet and Rush. Most DPM is done on pinned or immobile monsters anyway, making this very negligible.
- Monsters in LHC are auto-aggro'd anyway, taking away any appeal of using Hammer for that purpose. Once again, negligible.

Yeah sure, class X does game breaking damage if you consider the perfect scenario in which everything is mobbed together or if you consider single target DPS only...

Like...really? What's the point of doing these calculations again if we aren't going to be practical?

No model is perfectly accurate, yet some are useful - but only if applied practically. And I dare say that very few of the above factors I listed are negligible.

If you insist that there's no point in doing calculations unless they perfectly account for everything, then you're the one being impractical.

Mobbing takes a couple of seconds, and all warriors do it just as well at LHC. Single target DPS is considered because that's what most bosses are.

Yes, I realize that training anywhere other than LHC is slower, but that doesn't mean that the mobs outside of LHC should be destroyed ten times over by a singe attack. I would prefer the warrior classes be balanced out while keeping the same amount of strength that they currently possess in GMS.

As for why I'm anywhere other than LHC. I kind of enjoy walking around and hunting random monsters as well as doing quests, and I especially enjoyed wandering pre-BB when most enemies my level were actually taking more than 3 hits to kill and could actually hurt me. But I feel like doing that will become significantly less entertaining when absolutely nothing can so much as become agroed toward me because they die the moment I attack. It's one thing if the monster is 10 levels below me, but with warriors the way they are, I'll be one hit killing monsters that are even above my level.

If it's boring, downgrade your equips.
May I suggest a Pumpkin Basket?

On a serious note though, I'll agree though that there is a major imbalance/bipolarity when it comes to training in Maple.

The problem doesn't lie with the skills: it lays with the mobs.
They're buffing the skills so that players can better face places like Future Ereve, LHC, and the bosses that come with them, but that leaves the old mobs in the dust.

What would be fantastic would be to see, if not most of Leafre, the Temple of Time revamped to work exactly like LHC. Not only would this mean a bigger variety of training, but it would mean a more even distribution of elemental weaknesses among end-game training.

9.5 seconds on my Paladin to get fully buffed, and the skills have
80s
90s
100s
180s
200s
200s
200/330s (ice+fire, holy)
240s
300s
Cooldowns.
Looked at over a 5 minute period, that's 2.625 + 6.67 + 2.1 + 3.33 + 3 * 1.05 + .875 + .7 = 19.45 seconds.

That means I spend at least 6.5% of my time casting buffs...

Cast your buffs on a rope. Shouldn't take 9.5 seconds.

Cast your buffs on a rope. Shouldn't take 9.5 seconds.

Not always possible at bosses.

Get to a rope, buff, walk back to attack - may very well cancel out the time saved.

Why do we need to wait for buffs to cast anyway? There's a macro system that could make great work for casting buffs if they didn't have delays. Take Enrage for example. It takes around 3-4 attacks to get full buffed to 10 orbs to cast Enrage... even though it works with 9 for some reason... and even then, it has no delay or animation. It instantly casts with no interruption in my attacks. We don't have an Auto Buff for pets yet, and even so, don't those trigger the delay anyway? It's not like any buff takes longer than 1.5 seconds, right? It's hardly a "weakness" with invulnerability frames each time you get hit.

What version of CO are you looking at that lasts two seconds? Last I checked, it's 1.5 seconds.

Of course, the biggest atrocity in your math is how flagrantly you dismiss that, no, you won't ever be casting your buffs every minute. Combat Orders, for example, last three.
So that becomes 1.5/180 or .8% of every minute.
I see where you're attempting to go, but your logic is faulty.

Negligible? Yes.

Please look at Stereo's analysis.

I'd argue with this, but I'm not sure what you're saying.
Buffs are just an example and then you give another example that is... buffs?

Meant that buff delays were just one example...thought it would be obvious enough.

Dusk's account for Threaten, mastery, and PDRate.

And what about the peaching based on new calculations posed by various different people every time one of these re-balance patches come out?

I'll address the rest of the complaints on a point-by-point basis:
- Curious how Guardian's KB skill affects DPM at a boss. Especially the grand amount that are immobile. I'd say it has negligible effects.

Bossing again? What is this...BossStory?

- As for a character getting KB'd, I'd love how you would go about doing the math on that. Feel free to go ahead and try. At the end of the day, Palis having near-100% Stance isn't going to make up for Heroes doing three times their damage. It becomes negligible by relativity.

3 times the damage? What patch are we talking about here? Video please.

I have yet to see a Hero with similar equips doing 3 times my damage.

- Any mob that can be stunned/frozen should be dying in less than three hits, which can always be preformed before a mob and thinks to attack. Negligible for sure.

Really? Performed before a mob can think to attack? For sure? Qualm Monks, Oblivion Monks (any mob that does not pre-buff before casting magic)...you can ensure that they don't attack you within 3 hits if you don't stun them, eh? Yes, yes, quite negligible indeed. </sarcasm>

- Also curious how you'd calculate the affect of Monster Magnet and Rush. Most DPM is done on pinned or immobile monsters anyway, making this very negligible.

Are you focusing on bossing only again? Please refer to my other post if so. And if not, you prove my point exactly. This is something that would NOT be easy to calculate, yet it can drastically affect game play and training efficiency. It's by no means negligible AT ALL. Your logic here is flawed.

- Monsters in LHC are auto-aggro'd anyway, taking away any appeal of using Hammer for that purpose. Once again, negligible.

And 8 million damage every 20 seconds to Zak's 8 arms...and 5 million damage every 20 seconds to HT's legs, tail, wings, and both hands are negligible too, right?

If you insist that there's no point in doing calculations unless they perfectly account for everything, then you're the one being impractical.

That's not what I insist on at all. But if people are going to go as far as peaching based on assumptive calculations without seeing the class in action and videos...about the fact that their class is OMG imbalanced or another class is OMG OPness, then they should in all fairness, account for everything accurately. =)

Mobbing takes a couple of seconds, and all warriors do it just as well at LHC. Single target DPS is considered because that's what most bosses are.

No longer relevant to the point I was making. Please refer to my other post on bossing.

On a serious note though, I'll agree though that there is a major imbalance/bipolarity when it comes to training in Maple.

The problem doesn't lie with the skills: it lays with the mobs.
They're buffing the skills so that players can better face places like Future Ereve, LHC, and the bosses that come with them, but that leaves the old mobs in the dust.

What would be fantastic would be to see, if not most of Leafre, the Temple of Time revamped to work exactly like LHC. Not only would this mean a bigger variety of training, but it would mean a more even distribution of elemental weaknesses among end-game training.

Agreed. =)

Why do we need to wait for buffs to cast anyway? There's a macro system that could make great work for casting buffs if they didn't have delays. Take Enrage for example. It takes around 3-4 attacks to get full buffed to 10 orbs to cast Enrage... even though it works with 9 for some reason... and even then, it has no delay or animation. It instantly casts with no interruption in my attacks. We don't have an Auto Buff for pets yet, and even so, don't those trigger the delay anyway? It's not like any buff takes longer than 1.5 seconds, right? It's hardly a "weakness" with invulnerability frames each time you get hit.

What you said touches on what I said in another post in another thread somewhere...but why bother having so many active skills, period?! Things like Booster and AC and Stance...should really just be passive skills (I honestly don't see a point in NOT wanting those)...less clutter for keyboards too (even with macros). If anything, they're just there to make us feel better about our class having cool animations...but meh, it's getting a bit too much IMO. <.<

On a serious note though, I'll agree though that there is a major imbalance/bipolarity when it comes to training in Maple.

The problem doesn't lie with the skills: it lays with the mobs.
They're buffing the skills so that players can better face places like Future Ereve, LHC, and the bosses that come with them, but that leaves the old mobs in the dust.

What would be fantastic would be to see, if not most of Leafre, the Temple of Time revamped to work exactly like LHC. Not only would this mean a bigger variety of training, but it would mean a more even distribution of elemental weaknesses among end-game training.

That would be wonderfull! Especially since it would let I/L mages and Bishops actually deal decent damage while grinding.

What you said touches on what I said in another post in another thread somewhere...but why bother having so many active skills, period?! Things like Booster and AC and Stance...should really just be passive skills (I honestly don't see a point in NOT wanting those)...less clutter for keyboards too (even with macros). If anything, they're just there to make us feel better about our class having cool animations...but meh, it's getting a bit too much IMO. <.<

Well, having them all passive would make dispel less effective, and thereby significantly reduce the time needed to kill bosses; however, I think it'd be better if the buffs were active, but didn't need to be recast all the time. I'd prefer it if the buffs were active, but then worked like Soaring where they would continue to drain mp from the user over time (it's not like it'd be hard to make a skill drain 1-10 points of mp every few seconds). Just leave it so that the skills with time limits are party buffs, make the timer only kick in when the non-caster is out of range of the buff provider, and buffs that have cooldowns, like Divine Shield, or aren't controlled by the caster, like Lucky Dice and Oshi.

Well, having them all passive would make dispel less effective, and thereby significantly reduce the time needed to kill bosses; however, I think it'd be better if the buffs were active, but didn't need to be recast all the time. I'd prefer it if the buffs were active, but then worked like Soaring where they would continue to drain mp from the user over time (it's not like it'd be hard to make a skill drain 1-10 points of mp every few seconds). Just leave it so that the skills with time limits are party buffs, make the timer only kick in when the non-caster is out of range of the buff provider, and buffs that have cooldowns, like Divine Shield, or aren't controlled by the caster, like Lucky Dice and Oshi.

That's actually a really good idea! =D But maybe not every few seconds...*imagines the horrors of 1/1*

Cast your buffs on a rope. Shouldn't take 9.5 seconds.

Yeah, it's 6.0 seconds approximately. And a second run through 9 buffs while just standing around was only 8.5 seconds, so part of it's a matter of lag, and having to hit so many keys. I suspect buffs are 0.6 secs or 1.5 secs depending if they have a huge animation or not.

Still silly that we have so many buffs...