Tropes vs Women in Video Gaming - Damsel in Distress

Yeah I would like that too. Having a good selection of female protagonist would be great for role models of kids growing up. I definitely agree with you that the stories you grow up with can end up defining yourself.

I can find a reason to disagree with almost everything she says, even the examples she uses. >.> And I'm a girl....I don't know, I think she's over analyzing. Zelkova and I are going to make a video response to her tonight.

fyi just downvoting because you felt like your sex was needed to help emphasize your point.

I been thinking about this throughout the day and talked to my girlfriend about it and I've come to the working conclusion that I agree with the goal that feminist theory and feminist in general are aiming for. But as for the path they follow, I am not on-board.

Avoid the radfems. ): Extremists make anything look bad.

They just happen to be women more often because we live in a culture where women are more likely to need protection. And that’s not entirely for bullpomegranate traditional sexist patriarchal reasons. Women are physically weaker than men. Their survival is more important to passing on genes. I’m all for feminism, but let’s not deny biology while we’re at it.

Oh look, the biotruth justification is so that women can have babies, etc, etc. But that ultimately is expressed as women are only useful because babies keeping the family line going, etc, etc. And in the end, it's stupid. You need a man and a woman to have a baby. If you send off all the men to war and they all get killed, then what.

Women only "need protection" because it's basically stemming from the whole women were pretty much a commodity. Women being physically weaker than men is also a poopy point. You're essentially saying that men can't handle themselves, so women need to be the ones to watch out. Because in our society, why point at the responsible party when you can just blame the victim? zzzz

One thing she does accurately expose is the low amount of strong female protagonists in gaming, but this is a problem best solved by creating more games with strong female protagonists. I’d be interested in seeing what she has to say about how that can happen.

Step 1) Make people aware of the lack of female protagonists, such as through the use of youtube videos and online discussion.

It feels like people expect Sarkeesian to be able to change everything by herself or something, rofl.

Women only "need protection" because it's basically stemming from the whole women were pretty much a commodity. Women being physically weaker than men is also a poopy point. You're essentially saying that men can't handle themselves, so women need to be the ones to watch out. Because in our society, why point at the responsible party when you can just blame the victim? zzzz

I'm not "blaming" women for being weaker than men, and I wasn't even talking about sexual assault. I am stating that victims of any kind of distress (robbery, domestic violence, kidnapped by giant gorilla) are more likely to be female because of the biological differences between women and men. This is in no way implying that women need protection by men.

I found this video’s premise to be completely ridiculous.

To save on space, I'm merely quoting this part. I also wanted to respond with the opening line of the video: "This project will examine the tropes, plot devices and patterns most commonly associated with women in gaming from a systemic, big picture perspective." Read that a couple times; she's pointing out things that are overused and problematic, which are also things that continue to be used without so much as the people creating the media thinking about what it's doing.

While you can name a few instances where the men might be useless or relegated to generally weaker roles, I can probably name five other instances where the female characters do the same. If you play MMOs where the gender of the characters is forced, the roles women take are generally that of magic or ranged power; they're almost never (which means 'very rarely') ever allowed to be melee characters. You can see this in League of Legends which, while they do have female melee champions, is predominantly split in this same fashion: The majority of ranged champions are female, and the majority of magic/support champions are female. You can also see this in the newly released Path of Exile (which is a good game): The only two female characters are a Witch and a Ranger; the other four classes (all melee) are male. (That's not even to mention the use of the one indigenous character, which is another point entirely.) It drives me up a wall when things like that happen; I like playing melee characters, but I don't always want to be shown something that reinforces the fact that I'm particularly dainty (which those classes are when it comes to survivability).

The difference with there being "men that are plot devices" versus the "women that are plot devices" is quite obvious, especially if you've been looking for it instead of following media blindly. Men generally find themselves as the protagonists of series, be they games or movies or television shows. It's becoming more common in the latter two for women to find their ways to leading roles, but that's when you start paying attention to what kind of stories they're being given. There are not a lot of female-protagonists in the action, thriller, or science fiction areas; female-protagonists still get put into things like romantic comedies more often than anything else (because that's apparently all we're smart enough to watch -- please read that for immense sarcasm). We rarely get anything outside of that area because that's all anyone thinks we're interested in (as a gross generalisation -- people realise women like a lot of other things, but they don't try to satisfy this because they're still stuck in the stereotype and assume it's the only way to make money).

It's not inadequate to not mention the "weak" male characters; they're harder to find, and that's not at all what she's talking about. But here's another thing: What qualities do those 'weak male' characters share? I can guarantee you that a lot of them exhibit something somewhere between incredible intelligence (stereotyped nerd) and/or effeminate characteristics (the "momma's boys"). When it comes to the traditional male character, they're still the "sturdy tree" sorts of people.

I feel that if she was ever going to make a full game herself, she would put too much effort into stressing the female protagonist with all of the traits she wants in her protagonist and, in turn, spend less time on making it a good game.

I think the odd thing is that women tend to feel like we still have to provide the characters that men want (or that society has told us that everyone wants), so it sometimes feels like we're not allowed to develop strong characters. Most successful video game series do not have a strong female lead, and the same thing goes for a lot of our television series and movies.

I think once you've realised that it's possible to create a female character that isn't cheap and bland (in terms of characterisation), you spend less time focusing on her meeting 100% of the criteria for a "strong female protagonist" and actually make her human, dynamic and flexible within the environment you've created. After all, those are just a few of the things that give someone strength. It's not about removing all flaws, so perhaps she (or anyone) actually could spend a decent amount of time creating a functional female character.

And this part isn't really directed at any one person, but I can only think of a couple games where I find that I like the female characters (or any of them). Despite her annoying low-cut top/belt dress, I loved Lulu's personality in FFX. I loved Liara and Ashley in Mass Effect, and I adored the female version of Shepard. There are good female characters out there. But for every one good one, there are a dozen flat/boring/pointless ones that do nothing or are used as nothing more than plot devices. I actually still love the most of the women in both Valkyrie Profile games, too.

Some of the characters I do still like make me think, though. While I enjoyed FFX-2 (gameplay), I was bored by how much of it was (outside of side quests) Yuna trying to get back to Tidus; her own strength got lost somewhere with her robes. The Shadow Hearts series had a number of interesting female characters, but they always had some awkward problem that was male-focused. For much of Shadow Hearts: Covenant, Karen was in love with Yuri, which was only until they realised some squicky piece of information that made it wrong. Lucia was hysterical, but she was brain-dead and ditzy (common among female characters that aren't major). Anastasia was cute, but she had that teenage-puppy-love thing going for Yuri. And the same can be seen in the first and third installment, even though the characters aren't terrible; they're just not well-thought-out at all, while the guys are brilliant.

Somewhat related in terms of women in media, here are a few fun tests/projects being thrown about:
Dolls and Houses: More about when two women are left alone and what they talk about. Again, makes you think about what stories women are being given, rather than just their existence on screen.
Hawkeye Initiative: Almost everyone in the science fiction/comic area has seen this, so it's probably not new. Find covers of books/comics that show women, replace them with Hawkeye. If he looks silly, it's probably a bad cover for a woman to be in (and hyper-sexualised).

There are tons of other things related to this. Sadly, it's not even just the female portrayal but also the treatment of the female audience.

I'm not "blaming" women for being weaker than men, and I wasn't even talking about sexual assault.

I wasn't actually aiming for sexual assault with the mention of victim blaming. :V

I am stating that victims of any kind of distress (robbery, domestic violence, kidnapped by giant gorilla) are more likely to be female because of the biological differences between women and men. This is in no way implying that women need protection by men.

I'm not even sure that most crimes like that are more likely to be against women apart from domestic violence and sexual assault. But I don't understand the jump in logic here. It sounds like "It's more likely for a victim of any kind of distress to be female. This must be because they are biologically weaker."

fyi just downvoting because you felt like your sex was needed to help emphasize your point.

First of all...that's pretty rude and somewhat silly. Second of all, her whole point of the video revolves around women being offended by the damsel in distress point in games. I felt that I being a woman should highlight the point that it's not really offensive considering it would be offensive to us, not men really.

Asking the industry to make everything the same across gender will just terminate most of what makes games interesting. I do realize that is not what people really are asking for, but dragged out to the extreme that is where it ends up.

On a more humorous note; why would we want to enpower female game characters? Peach has been making that ugly fat little plumber go through the same ordeal over and over and over again for what, 30 years now? If that is not power I do not know what is.

First of all...that's pretty rude and somewhat silly. Second of all, her whole point of the video revolves around women being offended by the damsel in distress point in games. I felt that I being a woman should highlight the point that it's not really offensive considering it would be offensive to us, not men really.

No, her whole point of the video is the fact that the trope is incredibly overused. Nowhere did she say we were supposed to take offense to them, else we wouldn't be playing the games.

Asking the industry to make everything the same across gender will just terminate most of what makes games interesting. I do realize that is not what people really are asking for, but dragged out to the extreme that is where it ends up.

I really don't see how? Asking for a more equal standing in gaming makes things fair for both sides instead of catering to just one side of the audience, as the industry has been mainly catering to males for decades. Now that it's shown that females play video games too, they need to be keeping that in mind and not have most games have useless, distressed and/or oversexualized females.

Asking to see a female protagonist take on the same role as a male protagonist more often isn't hard. Mass Effect has the choice to do one or the other and it's become very popular because of that option, as well as having a great even cast of male/female members.

Waiting for nintendo to make a Zelda game where you can choose gender.

pls Flink saving Prince Zed.

I really don't see how? Asking for a more equal standing in gaming makes things fair for both sides instead of catering to just one side of the audience, as the industry has been mainly catering to males for decades. Now that it's shown that females play video games too, they need to be keeping that in mind and not have most games have useless, distressed and/or oversexualized females.

Asking to see a female protagonist take on the same role as a male protagonist more often isn't hard. Mass Effect has the choice to do one or the other and it's become very popular because of that option, as well as having a great even cast of male/female members.

It is not unreasonable to ask the industry to recognize the female clientele and cater for them more, not at all. It is however unreasonable to start making every game free from any sexual tension, stereotypes and the simple biological difference. That is not a construction even if many gender researchers (Yvonne Hirdman and R. W. Conell to mention some) likes to pretend so.
We do not need boob queens or helpless damsells in every instance of a game where a female is involved, but they certainly have a right to exist. And by the heavens, any jrpg player can testify that the male protagonists almost always leave much to desire when it comes to what constitutes the stereotype of the real man.

First, of all, I'm going to make clear one thing: My favourite games are Minecraft, TF2, The Binding of Isaac, Braid, and Maplestory.

And I think this video in particular is empty just because of this:

It's something everyone knows, and it contributes almost nothing new. What I thought it was interesting was about the Star Fox game, even though I think it was an attempt to bring back an old series in a forced way, resulting in a forced game.

But aside from that, consider that all of the games listed are around 20 years old, or their origins are from that time. It's like saying slavery is bad. Yes, we know it, so what, it's been abolished by now. And the fact they have old roots means that it has a tradition. If the tradition is having a princess being kidnaped over and over, you only are under the impression that that particular princess is lame at avoid being rescued. Consider it's just the same one princess over and over lately. No new princesses like at the start. And not to mention Mario Galaxy, where the "other" princess is the one helping Mario out. Without that one character, Mario would be attached to the gravity of a planet, waving his fists menacingly.

 Mario Galaxy Spoilers

Oh, and that same princess ends up being some kind of GOD or something weird at the end of the game? It wasn't too clear.

Yes, it's bad in some situations, but the best games out there, are games without these problems. At least look at the ones I like the most. It's something to avoid being sucked by, but you can't restrict yourself over that. Or else, protagonists should never be male, caucasian, in good health, attracted by someone, and exceeding in some quality.

consider that all of the games listed are around 20 years old, or their origins are from that time.

That's true, and it's why I'm kind of suspending my judgement on this series as a whole and waiting for Part 2 where she talks about more recent games. The argument is kinda outdated if you use those games as an example.

[SPOILER=My vast male mind contributes to this growing 'women' problem]Ah, I'm just pineappleing with ya. I ain't watched pomegranate, therefore I ain't qualifier to spout nothin. I'll watch it later 'cause MANUAL LABOR calls.

Yeah I saw this too as well as some of the videos that the men put out to criticize her.

Because she makes comments like this.

 Spoiler

And this

 Spoiler

I'll just leave this here
[video=youtube;NfkS9YS_T0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k[/video]

Because she makes comments like this.

 Spoiler

And this

 Spoiler

I cannot personally find any source on that tweet, and with how easy it is to doctor fake tweets, I'm hesitant to believe it (please do correct me if I'm wrong). I also fail to see the relevancy between Brian Banks and Anita Sarkeesian. Kickstarters fail all the time, I'm not sure how comparing the two brings anything to the argument against Sarkeesian when she has nothing to do with it.

(I'm mostly just lurking here, but I'm enjoying the discussion. This is a very interesting topic to me.)

I also fail to see the relevancy between Brian Banks and Anita Sarkeesian. Kickstarters fail all the time, I'm not sure how comparing the two brings anything to the argument against Sarkeesian when she has nothing to do with it.

(I'm mostly just lurking here, but I'm enjoying the discussion. This is a very interesting topic to me.)

Because for some reason they are comparing the case of one guy to genuine problems of gender equality.

I feel for the guy but feminism IS a big deal. And she only got that money because she was bullied by men (because lets face it most internet trolls are). She might have got the project funded without it, but I doubt by much.

It's comparing the case of one man vs the case of every woman. Using Anita as the example in this case is fucking dumb. Internet trolls are seeing her as the "face of feminism" and so are focusing on her, which is wrong.

I completely understand the issue of the imbalance of gender representation and the desire to see both genders play protagonist.

However, i have a huge problem with the criticism, and the reason it probably garners hate is because it only sees this trope for its negative characteristics.

I too have also grown up on games, a media i've used more than TV and music itself, I pretty much had little influence outside of it aside from my few friends. Even through all of this, i still don't see women as objects, and as a fledgling artist, I still have several female protagonist concepts that I'm fond of and hope to use in some form in the future. So i see this whole 'point of influence' thing as almost as absurd as the blaming games for violence. How can the same logic fall flat in one instance, but not another?

The video bothers me because as a guy (yes i pointed it out, don't pomgranate me for doing so cause... its kinda part of the subject...?) I know that the mere fact that its a 'female that needs help' wasn't why all those old SNES and PS1 games engaged me. It was the element of caring about someone and trying to help them... succeeding, and ultimately being appreciated for it. In real life: 1 or both of those elements don't always happen.

Are there games that really do objectify women enough by dumbing them down to warrant being sexist? Yes. Do they sometimes make intentional design choices to make the female in distress look more desirable? Yes, however, we have to at least acknowledge these influences may come from a time when the ability to tell story was limited. The easiest way to interest the player without developing an emotional backstory between protagonists was simply that: Make them pretty. That's a concept that's kinda unfair to... either gender, not just feminism. How frequently its imposed on either gender doesn't change that.

This element of trying to save someone you care about doesn't even require the protagonist being male to engage the player: my favorite game of all time is Secret of Mana, and one of the main characters in the game was the princess. She was in love with the knight dyluck but the power of his body drew the attention of the main antagonist as a new host, he ended up being whisked away and became the girl's reason for joining you in the quest. This aspect of the story hit me hard because...

 Spoiler

Even through all of the adventure and hard work through the story she went through... she STILL couldn't save him from his demise. It hit me right in my 10 year old feels. It was sad, but engaging, and i'll always remember the game for that moment along for many others.

The game itself is also a good example of a pro feminist game because she actually resisted her father's wishes of an arranged marriage to someone else because she wanted to be with that knight. Making her life choices hers and she was willing to fight for her choice in life. If she isn't aware of this character. Then i do in fact question her researching skills because SoM was not only a Square game, but a well known, very GOOD one at that.


But back to my main criticism about the video: It at no point considers the CORE reason why the trope is used so much. Which is engaging the desire to help someone and tapping into the desire of being appreciated for it. Focusing on the external elements like this, is much like bashing a FPS and saying people only play it because people just wanna shoot each other and enjoy it for the violence and desire to kill solely, not for the intense and sometimes strategic action it presents. It's this... disregard of the core purpose which is probably why it irks so many people.

Another HUGE thing i have with it is PERSONALLY, Is the idea that people need to change their creativity to suit others: If a writer wants to use the damsel in distress trope because its what they're inspired to do. Then they should do it. I'm not going to bash Miyamoto for making Peach a consistently dainty character cause that's how she was always designed. She's not particularly aggressive. Mario's the selfless hero that will always be there for her and succeeds at doing so. Peach appreciates it. Forced changes are not fun for creators and odds are you will end up making something flat and uninspired if you do. Which is why I do find bashing Miyamoto for the changes to StarFox Adventures on the other hand, valid. It's blindingly apparent just how forced Fox's interest was in Krystal in that game. I'm not going to enjoy a Zelda protagonist if the game is sloppily and awkwardly written because no one's heart is actually in it.

Don't tell someone to change their imagination: if you want to see more strong female protagonists, get into the field yourself and contribute rather than charge someone else.


Also, there's a slight implication that something is wrong with being a more daintly, not powerful woman. That's almost as bad as telling women they SHOULD be dainty and passive. Some girls have a personality that's naturally like that: they shouldn't feel as if something is wrong with them just as much as independent women shouldn't feel something is wrong with them. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd even like to see guys being accepted if they happen to timid or passive, but they still get scornful tags such as 'beta males'. But in any case, I believe choice to be who you want comes first. Don't move from demoralizing one end of the scale to a demoralizing the other. That's not an improvement.

To save on space, I'm merely quoting this part. I also wanted to respond with the opening line of the video: "This project will examine the tropes, plot devices and patterns most commonly associated with women in gaming from a systemic, big picture perspective." Read that a couple times; she's pointing out things that are overused and problematic, which are also things that continue to be used without so much as the people creating the media thinking about what it's doing.

While you can name a few instances where the men might be useless or relegated to generally weaker roles, I can probably name five other instances where the female characters do the same. If you play MMOs where the gender of the characters is forced, the roles women take are generally that of magic or ranged power; they're almost never (which means 'very rarely') ever allowed to be melee characters. You can see this in League of Legends which, while they do have female melee champions, is predominantly split in this same fashion: The majority of ranged champions are female, and the majority of magic/support champions are female. You can also see this in the newly released Path of Exile (which is a good game): The only two female characters are a Witch and a Ranger; the other four classes (all melee) are male. (That's not even to mention the use of the one indigenous character, which is another point entirely.) It drives me up a wall when things like that happen; I like playing melee characters, but I don't always want to be shown something that reinforces the fact that I'm particularly dainty (which those classes are when it comes to survivability).

The difference with there being "men that are plot devices" versus the "women that are plot devices" is quite obvious, especially if you've been looking for it instead of following media blindly. Men generally find themselves as the protagonists of series, be they games or movies or television shows. It's becoming more common in the latter two for women to find their ways to leading roles, but that's when you start paying attention to what kind of stories they're being given. There are not a lot of female-protagonists in the action, thriller, or science fiction areas; female-protagonists still get put into things like romantic comedies more often than anything else (because that's apparently all we're smart enough to watch -- please read that for immense sarcasm). We rarely get anything outside of that area because that's all anyone thinks we're interested in (as a gross generalisation -- people realise women like a lot of other things, but they don't try to satisfy this because they're still stuck in the stereotype and assume it's the only way to make money).

It's not inadequate to not mention the "weak" male characters; they're harder to find, and that's not at all what she's talking about. But here's another thing: What qualities do those 'weak male' characters share? I can guarantee you that a lot of them exhibit something somewhere between incredible intelligence (stereotyped nerd) and/or effeminate characteristics (the "momma's boys"). When it comes to the traditional male character, they're still the "sturdy tree" sorts of people.

What I disagree with is the idea that the "damsel in distress" trope is problematic. Supporting characters are allowed to be helpless. Princess Peach doesn't need a role reversal game to establish her as a strong woman who can think for herself, because she isn't. Why does she need to be? She's not intended to be a role model for girls. The setup in general isn't intended to portray men being the heroes and women being the victims as "the way things are." It's just one of many frameworks for hero stories. Like I already mentioned, the damsels are frequently non-female and not necessarily weak just because they get captured and can't do anything about it.

I would like to see more strong female protagonists in games, but I don't think the damsel in distress trope hinders that in any way.

League of Legends is particularly bad when it comes to female hero design, but I don't understand why you take exception to the rarity of brawny female characters in games. The big warriors are usually male because men are bigger and it takes a lot of muscles to swing a big axe. In a game with fixed character models, it just makes sense. It's not as if the spellcasters and more agile classes are less important.

That's true, and it's why I'm kind of suspending my judgement on this series as a whole and waiting for Part 2 where she talks about more recent games. The argument is kinda outdated if you use those games as an example.

Yeah I notice this too. For me some of them were "recent" just because my last console was a gamecube. But in reality none of those games were actually new. So like you I am waiting for the 2nd installment. I do hope that she gets better at making the videos. Each video on its own should be able to be consider complete.