ChrissieStar Wrote:All through life, there is punishment for bad behaviour. Parents/teachers have a duty to try to teach children the accepted behaviour, so that, hopefully, when they are grown up and on their own, they benefit from knowing what is good/acceptable and what is bad/unacceptable.
Punishment =/= Negative Reinforcement. Negative reinforcement strives to prevent a behavior, while punishment is merely an introduction of a undesirable consequence. Punishment is just encouragement for a child to break whatever law when the punisher is not around.
Manda Wrote:School discipline... bring it back! Seriously, younger generations are becoming more insolent, rude and lazy. I'm not old enough to have experienced the cane (my dad used to tell me about his school days though) but it would make a difference. In fact... parents should just be allowed to discipline their children appropriately. Start with the source! I was friends with a few classmates who were 'troublemakers' and their parents basically let them do whatever they wanted, and they were always a bit lazy. They seemed shocked when I said I used to get punished for bad behaviour. :f6:
Beating people with a cane doesn't work. It merely causes hate for everyone. Ever hear stories about "abusive parents"? They always start with a parent beating the child, and then the child goes on a hate trail and eventually is led towards violence. Monkey see, monkey do. Child sees abuse, child grows up to abuse others.
Manda Wrote:I wouldn't have a problem with teachers hitting students for bad behaviour... in extreme circumstances. If it acts as a deterrent, go for it. I've seen teachers have to put up with student violence (my Year 6 teacher was fierce, she dragged a boy out of the classroom for pushing over a table) and there has to be something they can do.
The teacher, in that case, would be correct to do that because pushing over a desk endangers others and therefore dragging him out of the classroom would be the same magnitude as pushing him out, and therefore would not be considered a cruel punishment.
Manda Wrote:Verbal warnings seem to go in one ear and out the other, and if the parents won't do their job in raising their children to behave and act like good responsible people then let the teachers do it. If you're intentionally rebellious then you need a good smack, if you're a slow learner and have difficulties then that's understandable.
Verbals warnings seem to go in one ear and out the other, but they do not. In fact, if a teacher told you lightly to stop talking, you'd stop out of respect. If the teacher told you to shut the fuuck up and gave you a dirty look every time you talked, that'd make the student feel outcasted, and when a student feels that way, his/her performance on tests and assignments drop as well. Tell them to shut the fuuck up long enough and eventually they will become rebellious. You're merely worsening the situation trying to reinforce in this negative manner.
Manda Wrote:It should also be able to teach a lesson for life too. It might seem 'okay' to start a few fights, get in trouble, and slack your way through school scraping pass grades, but in the real world you either pass or fail. Fail at work and it's bai bai job.
People don't have to learn that through punishment. In fact, most of the time, they don't. Punish a person too much for something and then they WILL in fact turn the other way just to rebel, and that's counterproductive. Let's say someone always fought, and then the principal would come in and beat the crap out of him every time he sees this. Eventually, after a few fights, that person WILL turn around and try training up to fight the principal just to be rebellious.
Manda Wrote:[Speaking of my personal experiences, I'm the eldest in my family and I would get smacked if I did something quite bad, and I've turned out very well, I'm respectful and had consistently high grades throughout school. In comparison, my sisters didn't get much punishment as my dad softened up and then my parents split, and they're quite rude, and one sister got into the wrong crowd. :/ I'm just saying, it does work in some cases. If you don't like the idea of getting hit, bawww moar. It's character building and teaches you to behave. The thought of not getting hit is enough to put you in the right direction.]
You can't use your family to model the population. Also, your sisters might have been effected by other factors such as your parents splitting, it's not necessarily that they were hit less that they aren't as "great" as you are.
Manda Wrote:As for detentions, it depends on how the time is used. My school used to call it "Homework Club" (because it wasn't as bad as "detention") and you'd get sent there to get help with homework after school, and the more you forgot/didn't do your homework, the longer the interval (max of 2 hours). I got sent there twice in my whole school years, once for forgetting to e-mail my art assignment to my school e-mail and another for forgetting my gym kit, and I saw it as a stain on my record (not that it was actually recorded). ;_; My sister however ended up there several times a week due to pure laziness and several of her friends didn't really see it as a deterrent. I'd say 30 minutes would be a waste of time unless the time was used productively. Chances are those who end up in detention won't do their homework, will sleep, or do nothing.
The homework club, although not really punishment, can be viewed as negative reinforcement. By forcing them to do what they didn't want to do, they eventually will come to like the thought of going there for whatever else reason, such as visiting friends, which might lead to helping each other on homework, and slowly mold them back on the right path.
What you were suggesting all the way through your post, which was just hitting the students, doesn't work...
Manda Wrote:I may also be biased because I can't stand children nowadays, I'd like to punish them all.
So far for the "I turned out alright" statement that you claimed. If you want to "punish them all", then something is seriously wrong with you.
Stereo Wrote:Screw second chances. If they're late, lock them out of the classroom and throw a surprise quiz. Easy marks for everyone else, no marks for latecomers. It's fricking annoying when people waltz in late.
LOL. One of the teachers at our school did that before. What she did was that since everyone cut like... 15 minutes of class, she gave a "tardy quiz" in which students merely had to write their name and favorite color on a sheet of paper and pass. Students who came in late had no idea the quiz existed until it showed up on their scores... haha
Seriously though, I don't get what's so wrong about coming in 1-2 minutes late to class. Sometimes it can't be helped.
TehMatt Wrote:Today's system creates bratty children. I relaized early on I could pretty much do whatever I wanted. I would walk out of detention, and ditch classes all the time. Then you get disciplined with more detentions/suspensions. If I didn't go to the firsts ones why would I bother going toevery one after that? If someone had hit me though I wouldn't have behaved so terribly.
My behavior only did change when I got sent to a school in Utah where they were allowed to restrain children. They made it a point to hire big men. I realized they could actually force me into punsihment then so I decided to behave. I know now what can happen to me if I act up again so I try my hardest to follow the rules now.
Guess what will happen when the big men disappear from the scene. Many of the you (not necessarily you, but the badassed people at your school) will end up repeating the same "bad" behaviors.
TehMatt Wrote:Even though I advocate for physical means of discipline I think it needs to be used correctly. You should be able to force a person into a punsihment as their consequence for their actions. However, you may not abuse them. You can easily restrain someone without hurting them.
Obviously, if a person beat you regardless of whether you did something wrong or not, you would be unable to distinguish whether it was a negative reinforcement or not and therefore the action becomes a neutral stimulus.
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The best form of negative reinforcement though, is humiliation. When you humiliate someone, whether it'd be subtle, you'd produce the strongest effect. For example, a teacher reading aloud an embarrassing note that you passed to your friend would eventually get you to stop. Rather than just beating you up for it, which would make you hate the teacher, you wouldn't think too hard about it though you would think twice before passing another note. Shunning someone from the class makes them feel left out, because everyone has the need to belong, and that need is greater than the need of feeling comfort and avoiding pain.
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For the original thread,
1) Punishment, is never a good thing. Especially with all the school administrators dealing them (holy crap a 4 hour saturday school for being 2 minutes late to class wtp). Better forms of negative reinforcements need to be developed in the school system to allow for a healthier learning environment.
2) Detentions are ALWAYS a waste of time, unless the student does something meaningful in detention.
