Theory: FA-less Fighter/Page

Well, here's a setup on how fast[4] is:

 NB, Big image

*DPS. Multiply with your dmg-range + combo/berserk/charge multiplier to get avg DPS.

Calculating the integral of both gives SB + SB a value of 31.5972, while SB + FA is "only" 30.5955 (NB, from 1-6, not 0-6), so in theory, SB + SB is 3.27% faster than SB + FA. In theory.

(oh and yeah, SB + SB is better after 3.30878898 monsters. In theory.)

Let's see on the PS + FA vs PS + PS one, included:

 NB, Big image

Integral is 32.7302 for X + X, 31.881 for X + FA. 2.6% more damage from being FA-less. In theory.

In-game, however, FA will be way, way more efficient due to the fact that you'll most likely have a majority of 1-4 mobs instead of mobs over 3 monsters big. Also, bosses anyone?

I'll work on some sader-calculations, as these consider a lot of probability to take into account.

Edit: Sader formula:

 Spoiler

All different possibilities:
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + FA + Coma = only one (NNNNY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + FA + Coma = only one (YYY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is YYN)
SB + SB + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is NNYN)
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + Coma = only one (NNNNN)

a = chance of FA
b = 1 - a

P1 = b^4 * a
P2 = a^3
P3 = (3 chance 2) * a^2 * b = 3 * a^2 * b
P4 = (4 chance 3) * b^3 * a = 4 * b^3 * a
P5 = b^5
Pall = P1 + P2 + P3 + P4 + P5

x = monsters
c = FA-multiplier
d = Slash blast multiplier
e = coma multiplier
orbs (= 5)
f = (avg) amount of seconds for FA + SB
g = amount of seconds for SB and Coma


Damage-output of all the different damages, DPS-wise:
FA + SB = A = (d * x + c * (1+(1/3)^6-(1/3)^x))/f
SB = B = d * x / g
Coma = C = e * 5.0 * x / g

DPSes:
D1 = (A + B * 4)
D2 = (A * 3)
D3 = (A * 2 + B)
D4 = (A + B * 3)
D5 = (B * 5)

Avg DPS (6 seconds):

((D1 * P1 + D2 * P2 + D3 * P3 + D4 * P4 + D5 * P5)+ Coma)/Pall

Shortened (6 seconds, still):
(a(3Aa^2 + b(3a(2A+B)+b(A(4b^2)+4B(3+b^2)))) + 5Bb^5)/Pall + C

Without FA, the damage is:

5B + C

 care4ppls

I'm completely taken by your mathematical prowess! lol Kudos!

Depends how you think of it. On one hand it is leeching, on another it's not JUST leeching. A good HS mule actually helps the person training get more exp as well, so it isn't just leeching, it is, for the lack of a better word, training. When I said that I know people that got from 5x to 8x in one night, it was a Cleric/Priest and a Bow Master. The bow master got 10% more exp from the priest (After it became a priest w/ HS) and the priest got several levels within a few hours. Of course, in the cleric stages it was just purely leeching, and for a warrior, it would most likely just be leeching, unless they somehow contribute in an arguably useful way to consider it a training party.

Well, a page could. One time I went LMPQing with a couple people who were on 2x EXP so they didn't want me to kill the monsters (since we were only going after the tauromacis) so rather than just sit in room 16, I Threatened them. LOL, effectively becoming a Threaten mule. >_>

Making Threaten reduce 20% rather than just 20 attack would help with that. It'd be like an extra stackable Invincible.

this thread was last active about 3 months ago guys :/

Whoops. Sorry!

But, more on topic, not realizing this was an old thread, I spent some time contemplating FA while I was training.
Now, I'm level 68, so not quite 3rd job, so your results may vary, but I found that very rarely was I training anywhere that the damage difference found in using SB on a mob of 5-6 really made a difference. Moreover, due to my short range compared to a Spearman, on the majority of the monsters I'm training on, I'm not getting 5-6 in a mob, either. Maybe at MP3, the initial mob on a platform might be that big, but the difference would be negligible. To me, at least, they'd die in the same number of hits. But once that big mob is gone, you're left with groups of 1-3. And at places like V/hoodoos, or even Windraiders to some extent, Power Strike is more effective. So at least, for me, Final Attack was worth maxing. And as was pointed out by others, FA won't activate on 4th job attacks, so it's really moot by then.

With FA, i lost my KB from duals many times, because FA attacks before it's ready to be KB'd, and SB would do this often too, which sucks. But I love the extra DPS given so it's worth losing a potion here and there

With FA, i lost my KB from duals many times, because FA attacks before it's ready to be KB'd, and SB would do this often too, which sucks. But I love the extra DPS given so it's worth losing a potion here and there

You mean the extra DPS lost? Your DPS drops like a rock with FA and SB.

Whoops. Sorry!

But, more on topic, not realizing this was an old thread, I spent some time contemplating FA while I was training.
Now, I'm level 68, so not quite 3rd job, so your results may vary, but I found that very rarely was I training anywhere that the damage difference found in using SB on a mob of 5-6 really made a difference. Moreover, due to my short range compared to a Spearman, on the majority of the monsters I'm training on, I'm not getting 5-6 in a mob, either. Maybe at MP3, the initial mob on a platform might be that big, but the difference would be negligible. To me, at least, they'd die in the same number of hits. But once that big mob is gone, you're left with groups of 1-3. And at places like V/hoodoos, or even Windraiders to some extent, Power Strike is more effective. So at least, for me, Final Attack was worth maxing. And as was pointed out by others, FA won't activate on 4th job attacks, so it's really moot by then.

you dont notice the difference because you havent had a chance to whack at mobs both with and without fa at a high enough level. once you get to an area where you struggle to meet the kb values, which are 10% of the monsters hp, then you will notice that the first monster dies much faster than the 6th. (ie... duals. still the best wk training in late 7x-8x). this is where you will cry about how much fa sucks with slash blast. but until you can extend the scenario to an extreme, you wouldnt notice. training in 2nd job is much much different from training in 3rd job. 2nd job is 1-2hko for max efficiency. 3rd job monsters have too high of hp to do that, so you have to go for highest possible dps.

the kb values, which are 10% of the monsters hp, then you will notice that the first monster dies much faster than the 6th. (ie... duals. still the best wk training in late 7x-8x).

This only applies to KMS-origin mobs. Wolf Spiders, Himes, and the new CWK stuff all has pitifully low KB (I think himes are 600?) to the point where minimum damage is not a concern, only the speed of attacks.

And in that front, CWK is messed up anyway, because even without FA, every 2nd hit will fail to KB (and in the case of Elder Wraiths, the 3rd will fail to do damage). I have a better consistency of KB @ Bigfoot using PS+FA because it gives me more chances to KB per second.

This only applies to KMS-origin mobs. Wolf Spiders, Himes, and the new CWK stuff all has pitifully low KB (I think himes are 600?) to the point where minimum damage is not a concern, only the speed of attacks.

And in that front, CWK is messed up anyway, because even without FA, every 2nd hit will fail to KB (and in the case of Elder Wraiths, the 3rd will fail to do damage). I have a better consistency of KB @ Bigfoot using PS+FA because it gives me more chances to KB per second.

duals are still great training for wks though, even with all the new stuff, arent they?

I'm at the point on my DEXless page where I should be saving my points for FA (currently have 15) but I am debating whether I should get FA or not. On my WK, I have seen its use and flaws so I am wondering if I should even bother this time.