2011-12-06, 03:00 PM
He's not a pomegranatety jungler, but you seem to think he's at the top of the junglers and somehow "sleeper OP" which means he has to beat out every other AoE jungler somehow. That's what overpowered means you know, that his power level is above that of every other jungler, and that no one knows it, thus the sleeper statement. I just tried to show you that I do know his strengths, but they are not superior or overpowered compared to other aoe junglers. He's a good jungler, and viable in this meta, but if given the choice, I think most people would take one of the junglers I listed and put him top lane. That's not because Cho is terrible at the jungle, it's just that top lane is better for him while the other champions are better in the jungle.
You're going for a tank initiator build, which is fine on Cho. Let's take a look at your item choices from your examples:
Elysia's miracle, not my fav item, but it can work. You skip out on Merc treads that way, which is fine, albeit I feel like with your build, a Shurelia's reverie would be more useful to allow your entire team to catch up to the enemy as you start to initiate.
You like Randuins, which is fine, gives you on hit attack speed reduction and an active to slow enemies . . . however if we're going purely by items, a Frozenheart would be better in case the enemy team aren't complete idiots. If you're still at the point where enemy teams focus you every team fights no matter what, then it's fine, but if they at all focus anyone else first, your Randuin's just got a lot less effective at shutting down the ranged ad. Still, it's not a terrible choice as it does give you some nice stats and if you're able to get into the enemy team and set off the active, then you are helping your team catch up and disrupting them.
A FoN is always nice on a Cho with max stacks + any other hp item, gives good movement speed and regen, letting you take some hits, get out of the fight, and then come back in for round 2.
Banshee's Veil is a solid item choice, but because you already got a FoN, I feel like it's somewhat of a waste. I think it'd be better to start working on a damage item. Rod of Ages works, as would Wit's End, as would Abyssal Scepter. Any of those options allows you to gain some damage without losing too much tankiness and keeps you a greater threat mid to late game.
GA is a solid choice on every champ and it does give some good armor and mr, but I really prefer other items to it unless you're building almost all damage. A Cho with GA and no damage item on the enemy team = me ignoring you and killing everyone else on your team, then taking the 3-5 of us left and killing you. I've built GA's on Cho before, it's not a terrible choice if you're initiating and getting one shot, but uhh, if that's happening, well the game is going pretty poorly for your team and any item you buy isn't going to change that fact. The main reason you get that GA is to make the enemy team think twice about focusing you, which is the last thing you want to do if you're going tank initiator Cho. This also hurts your Randuin's choice, as people shouldn't be autoattacking you if you've got your GA up.
And as for your boots of swiftness, I'd rather see Ionian boots of Lucidity, ninja tabi, magic pen boots, or boots of mobility, any of them are better option than swiftness. Lucidity means more casts of your bread and butter cc skills, though it's not useful if you're already near max cd reduction. Ninja Tabi is godly against a heavy ad team, especially late game when resists don't matter as much if the enemy team has enough armor pen. Magic Pen boots are for upping your damage and punishing the enemy team for not buying mr, but you have to build some sort of damage item to make it worthwhile honestly. And boots of mobility are for terror ganking early to mid game. Probably pick up some other boots later on in the match, but for the start, it's a solid choice to improve your clear times, your lane to lane movement, counterjungle, etc.
I played tank Cho a lot . . . and I mean alot. He's a good tank if the enemy team isn't competent. However, I reached the point where every game I tried to play pure tank Cho, the enemy team would just focus down my team mates first, and then kill me. That's the point at which I realized I had to buy some sort of damage item to keep myself a threat to the enemy carries. It means you die more in team fights sure, but it also means your team will win those fights more often. That's my main criticism of your OP jungle Cho builds that you've shown, but maybe you just picked two where you hadn't built any damage items. I don't know your builds well enough to say otherwise. If you are doing so in most games, then my hats off to you, but if you're building pure tank Cho every match, I've been there and done that, and while it's fun to be nigh unkillable, there's always a point at which the enemies will start being able to deal with it.
Hmm against some single target junglers your point is valid, but Fiddles really got hurt in the 5-11 range with the jungle changes. Some of the gank heavy junglers are still able to keep up like Noc or Shaco, but a lot of the single target junglers just fall off after 6 in the jungle, and are then forced to make it up with ganks + holding lanes. The first isn't a sure thing, so they can fall further behind, and the second means the enemy team pushed their ally out of lane, so you have to cover it, which is good from a gold/experience perspective on your part, but bad for the pushed out ally as they're falling behind in their lane each time that happens. And bad because you lose all pressure on the other two lanes with them knowing exactly where you are.
You are right that jungling varies game to game, team to team, person to person, and that single target junglers can beat out aoe junglers, however you are handicapping your chances of doing so when you pick them. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but most people prefer to stay on par with the enemy and have a chance to get ahead, instead of starting out behind and having to play catch up. That's the difference between aoe and single target junglers at the moment.
You're going for a tank initiator build, which is fine on Cho. Let's take a look at your item choices from your examples:
Elysia's miracle, not my fav item, but it can work. You skip out on Merc treads that way, which is fine, albeit I feel like with your build, a Shurelia's reverie would be more useful to allow your entire team to catch up to the enemy as you start to initiate.
You like Randuins, which is fine, gives you on hit attack speed reduction and an active to slow enemies . . . however if we're going purely by items, a Frozenheart would be better in case the enemy team aren't complete idiots. If you're still at the point where enemy teams focus you every team fights no matter what, then it's fine, but if they at all focus anyone else first, your Randuin's just got a lot less effective at shutting down the ranged ad. Still, it's not a terrible choice as it does give you some nice stats and if you're able to get into the enemy team and set off the active, then you are helping your team catch up and disrupting them.
A FoN is always nice on a Cho with max stacks + any other hp item, gives good movement speed and regen, letting you take some hits, get out of the fight, and then come back in for round 2.
Banshee's Veil is a solid item choice, but because you already got a FoN, I feel like it's somewhat of a waste. I think it'd be better to start working on a damage item. Rod of Ages works, as would Wit's End, as would Abyssal Scepter. Any of those options allows you to gain some damage without losing too much tankiness and keeps you a greater threat mid to late game.
GA is a solid choice on every champ and it does give some good armor and mr, but I really prefer other items to it unless you're building almost all damage. A Cho with GA and no damage item on the enemy team = me ignoring you and killing everyone else on your team, then taking the 3-5 of us left and killing you. I've built GA's on Cho before, it's not a terrible choice if you're initiating and getting one shot, but uhh, if that's happening, well the game is going pretty poorly for your team and any item you buy isn't going to change that fact. The main reason you get that GA is to make the enemy team think twice about focusing you, which is the last thing you want to do if you're going tank initiator Cho. This also hurts your Randuin's choice, as people shouldn't be autoattacking you if you've got your GA up.
And as for your boots of swiftness, I'd rather see Ionian boots of Lucidity, ninja tabi, magic pen boots, or boots of mobility, any of them are better option than swiftness. Lucidity means more casts of your bread and butter cc skills, though it's not useful if you're already near max cd reduction. Ninja Tabi is godly against a heavy ad team, especially late game when resists don't matter as much if the enemy team has enough armor pen. Magic Pen boots are for upping your damage and punishing the enemy team for not buying mr, but you have to build some sort of damage item to make it worthwhile honestly. And boots of mobility are for terror ganking early to mid game. Probably pick up some other boots later on in the match, but for the start, it's a solid choice to improve your clear times, your lane to lane movement, counterjungle, etc.
I played tank Cho a lot . . . and I mean alot. He's a good tank if the enemy team isn't competent. However, I reached the point where every game I tried to play pure tank Cho, the enemy team would just focus down my team mates first, and then kill me. That's the point at which I realized I had to buy some sort of damage item to keep myself a threat to the enemy carries. It means you die more in team fights sure, but it also means your team will win those fights more often. That's my main criticism of your OP jungle Cho builds that you've shown, but maybe you just picked two where you hadn't built any damage items. I don't know your builds well enough to say otherwise. If you are doing so in most games, then my hats off to you, but if you're building pure tank Cho every match, I've been there and done that, and while it's fun to be nigh unkillable, there's always a point at which the enemies will start being able to deal with it.
Hmm against some single target junglers your point is valid, but Fiddles really got hurt in the 5-11 range with the jungle changes. Some of the gank heavy junglers are still able to keep up like Noc or Shaco, but a lot of the single target junglers just fall off after 6 in the jungle, and are then forced to make it up with ganks + holding lanes. The first isn't a sure thing, so they can fall further behind, and the second means the enemy team pushed their ally out of lane, so you have to cover it, which is good from a gold/experience perspective on your part, but bad for the pushed out ally as they're falling behind in their lane each time that happens. And bad because you lose all pressure on the other two lanes with them knowing exactly where you are.
You are right that jungling varies game to game, team to team, person to person, and that single target junglers can beat out aoe junglers, however you are handicapping your chances of doing so when you pick them. If you're fine with that, that's fine, but most people prefer to stay on par with the enemy and have a chance to get ahead, instead of starting out behind and having to play catch up. That's the difference between aoe and single target junglers at the moment.