2011-12-06, 02:29 AM
Nah, I still have to disagree with your assessment. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, he's a good jungler, but he's nowhere near a sleeper OP for the jungle. He's a viable jungler in this current jungle incarnation, but that's it. It's not because people are sheep that they don't play him jungle, it's simply a matter of choice. I can have a solid top, that if allowed to farm, will do great things mid to late game, or I can have a good jungler who may or may not be of use to the team mid to late game. If given that choice, they will without a doubt, choose to lane him top lane. For starter, let's look at who he has to go up against for top junglers after the recent patches: Skarner, Udyr, Amumu, Rammus, Maokai. All of them have solid aoe and cc that is far superior to what Cho will provide coming from the jungle. About the only inferior cc is Udyr, but he usually can make up for it with sheer speed when it comes to jungling, counterjungling, ganking, counterganking, clearing, holding lanes, etc. due to bear + phoenix stance.
So lets see, Cho vs Skarner: Skarner, superior level 6 ganking, worse pre 6 ganking unless with red buff and ghost or flash. Sustain is fairly similar. Shield provides movement speed buff, so overall clears, counterjungles, and ganks are faster. He's weak against kiting teams, but his ult is a great way to secure a kill while taking out someone important on the enemy side. Flash pulls can win games, especially if you catch the enemy unprepared for it. Loses out on tankiness to Cho in general, but a solid pick if you have some other bruisers and cc to back him up.
Cho vs Udyr: Although I went over it, let's go over it again: about the same in CC, unless Udyr in bear stance is allowed to hit someone more than once, but overall Cho has a better chance to land his CC. However, catching up to that person is still iffy without some other CC to lock down the target. Sustain is similar, clears go to Udyr thanks to bear stances movement speed buff. Hard pressed to win against kite teams, but any team with few cc or slows makes Udyr a terror, as he will force your team to focus him down before he can go through and stun your entire team one at a time before getting to the carry in back and beating him up. Cho works in a similar manner, but Udyr's phoenix stance, speed, and aoe is generally better than Cho's for chasing and jungling.
Cho vs Amumu: Amumu has decent CC pre 6, but great CC after that, flash Ults can almost assure kills. Loses out to Cho in sustain and lack of blue buff really hurts his jungle. Still a solid pick because he can jungle hop camps with bandage toss, allowing him to clear decently fast and again, double CC makes his ganks supremely effective. He's ideal for teams with high AoE or ones that require ad carries to get multiple solid attacks against a specific target without fear of reprisal. Cho's only aoe CC is on a shorter cd compared to Amumu's, but Amumu is much more likely to land his ult and snare 3-5 people than Cho is going to with his. Also, Amumu's bandage toss is a great initiation, whereas Cho either has to land a rupture and walk over, or walk over hoping to land a rupture. Either option is going to be slower and riskier than Amumu's, albeit Amumu can force more bad fights with his initiation than Cho generally can.
Cho vs Rammus: Rammus has great ganking potential as soon as his taunt gets to a decent level. Pre 6 it's generally not that high so his ganks aren't sure kills, but with powerball slow, and taunt, he's got a decent chance at killing anyone that's even slightly overextended. His sustain is below Cho's, and he's a rather squishy jungler with some fairly heavy mana costs, but being able to take out a person for sure in a team fight is a big plus, and his ganks obviously are a great help to getting a lane into an advantageous position. Powerball adds to his clear speed and traversing lane to lane by a lot as well. Overall he's not good for every team comp, but against certain ones, he can win the game just by taunting the right person in a team fight.
Cho vs Maokai: Maokai has great pre 6 CC with his snare, and okay knockback ability that ends up having a fairly high potential of securing a kill. Similar sustain, but slower clear times due to his relative dependency on blue buff for maximum skill spam and speed clearing. Cho probably beats him clearing later on, but Mao's ult, and his ability to snare the carry in the back of a team are sometimes too good of options to exclude him. He excels against AoE team comps, or teams that are all about protecting that one champion to win a fight. Maokai isn't as tough to kill as Cho, but with his ult up, he can protect his entire team even better than Cho can, and again, his snare allows him to stick to a target more easily.
As for your examples: First of all, shutting down Fiddlesticks is not an accomplishment in light of the recent jungle changes. He's a mana dependent, high single target damage jungler. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that has any aoe, will beat him easily. The only advantage Fiddle's has as a jungler is his ult, and that's not usually worthwhile if you end up that far behind the enemy jungler.
Next example is a Trundle game, another single target jungler. One of the better ones for sure, but after this last patch, every single target jungler will be beaten by junglers with aoe. It's not hard to tell that. Even with Shaco counter jungling you, you're going to win because of your aoe. But that says nothing about Cho specifcally, and alot about the aoe junglers from this patch. I will give you that you being Cho would help you secure buffs more easily than other aoe junglers against strong counterjungling, but if they're going to such extremes, your other lanes should be winning regardless, leaving their team with two underfarmed, underfed champions vs one underfarmed and underfed champion.
I'm sure you have some evidence of Cho beating other AoE junglers, if you've been playing him that much, but the problem I have with your evidence, is that none of it makes me go, OMG, that jungle Cho won us the game hands down, when you could have been a lane Cho and possibly shut down a lane and forced the enemy jungler to camp your lane just to keep things even. Instead of effectively tying up one enemy champion, you've just forced two champions to deal with you. And if you're far enough ahead, even two champions won't be able to stop you. They'll have to three man or four man gank you to stop you. And at that point, if you have competent team members, you have effectively just won the game. That's what lane Cho offers to your team. Jungle Cho . . . not so much. Now that is an extreme example, of a Cho'Gath doing exceptionally well, so I don't expect to get that every game if someone is going Cho, but not feeding the enemy team, farming up tons, and even denying top lane experience or farm, is still something that I consider to be more worthwhile than jungling as far as Cho is concened.
P.S. Don't go boots of swiftness, I don't care why you think they're a worthwhile purchase, but any number of other options would have been so much better. In fact, go Movespeed Quints instead, or utility/defensive tree movement speed, or both, any of which would be better than going boots of swiftness. Especially so if you're getting that FoN most games.
So lets see, Cho vs Skarner: Skarner, superior level 6 ganking, worse pre 6 ganking unless with red buff and ghost or flash. Sustain is fairly similar. Shield provides movement speed buff, so overall clears, counterjungles, and ganks are faster. He's weak against kiting teams, but his ult is a great way to secure a kill while taking out someone important on the enemy side. Flash pulls can win games, especially if you catch the enemy unprepared for it. Loses out on tankiness to Cho in general, but a solid pick if you have some other bruisers and cc to back him up.
Cho vs Udyr: Although I went over it, let's go over it again: about the same in CC, unless Udyr in bear stance is allowed to hit someone more than once, but overall Cho has a better chance to land his CC. However, catching up to that person is still iffy without some other CC to lock down the target. Sustain is similar, clears go to Udyr thanks to bear stances movement speed buff. Hard pressed to win against kite teams, but any team with few cc or slows makes Udyr a terror, as he will force your team to focus him down before he can go through and stun your entire team one at a time before getting to the carry in back and beating him up. Cho works in a similar manner, but Udyr's phoenix stance, speed, and aoe is generally better than Cho's for chasing and jungling.
Cho vs Amumu: Amumu has decent CC pre 6, but great CC after that, flash Ults can almost assure kills. Loses out to Cho in sustain and lack of blue buff really hurts his jungle. Still a solid pick because he can jungle hop camps with bandage toss, allowing him to clear decently fast and again, double CC makes his ganks supremely effective. He's ideal for teams with high AoE or ones that require ad carries to get multiple solid attacks against a specific target without fear of reprisal. Cho's only aoe CC is on a shorter cd compared to Amumu's, but Amumu is much more likely to land his ult and snare 3-5 people than Cho is going to with his. Also, Amumu's bandage toss is a great initiation, whereas Cho either has to land a rupture and walk over, or walk over hoping to land a rupture. Either option is going to be slower and riskier than Amumu's, albeit Amumu can force more bad fights with his initiation than Cho generally can.
Cho vs Rammus: Rammus has great ganking potential as soon as his taunt gets to a decent level. Pre 6 it's generally not that high so his ganks aren't sure kills, but with powerball slow, and taunt, he's got a decent chance at killing anyone that's even slightly overextended. His sustain is below Cho's, and he's a rather squishy jungler with some fairly heavy mana costs, but being able to take out a person for sure in a team fight is a big plus, and his ganks obviously are a great help to getting a lane into an advantageous position. Powerball adds to his clear speed and traversing lane to lane by a lot as well. Overall he's not good for every team comp, but against certain ones, he can win the game just by taunting the right person in a team fight.
Cho vs Maokai: Maokai has great pre 6 CC with his snare, and okay knockback ability that ends up having a fairly high potential of securing a kill. Similar sustain, but slower clear times due to his relative dependency on blue buff for maximum skill spam and speed clearing. Cho probably beats him clearing later on, but Mao's ult, and his ability to snare the carry in the back of a team are sometimes too good of options to exclude him. He excels against AoE team comps, or teams that are all about protecting that one champion to win a fight. Maokai isn't as tough to kill as Cho, but with his ult up, he can protect his entire team even better than Cho can, and again, his snare allows him to stick to a target more easily.
As for your examples: First of all, shutting down Fiddlesticks is not an accomplishment in light of the recent jungle changes. He's a mana dependent, high single target damage jungler. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that has any aoe, will beat him easily. The only advantage Fiddle's has as a jungler is his ult, and that's not usually worthwhile if you end up that far behind the enemy jungler.
Next example is a Trundle game, another single target jungler. One of the better ones for sure, but after this last patch, every single target jungler will be beaten by junglers with aoe. It's not hard to tell that. Even with Shaco counter jungling you, you're going to win because of your aoe. But that says nothing about Cho specifcally, and alot about the aoe junglers from this patch. I will give you that you being Cho would help you secure buffs more easily than other aoe junglers against strong counterjungling, but if they're going to such extremes, your other lanes should be winning regardless, leaving their team with two underfarmed, underfed champions vs one underfarmed and underfed champion.
I'm sure you have some evidence of Cho beating other AoE junglers, if you've been playing him that much, but the problem I have with your evidence, is that none of it makes me go, OMG, that jungle Cho won us the game hands down, when you could have been a lane Cho and possibly shut down a lane and forced the enemy jungler to camp your lane just to keep things even. Instead of effectively tying up one enemy champion, you've just forced two champions to deal with you. And if you're far enough ahead, even two champions won't be able to stop you. They'll have to three man or four man gank you to stop you. And at that point, if you have competent team members, you have effectively just won the game. That's what lane Cho offers to your team. Jungle Cho . . . not so much. Now that is an extreme example, of a Cho'Gath doing exceptionally well, so I don't expect to get that every game if someone is going Cho, but not feeding the enemy team, farming up tons, and even denying top lane experience or farm, is still something that I consider to be more worthwhile than jungling as far as Cho is concened.
P.S. Don't go boots of swiftness, I don't care why you think they're a worthwhile purchase, but any number of other options would have been so much better. In fact, go Movespeed Quints instead, or utility/defensive tree movement speed, or both, any of which would be better than going boots of swiftness. Especially so if you're getting that FoN most games.