[1.2.381] The Wind

Sigh, I don't even know where to begin.

Both of you are poorly mistaken. Dark Flare, when combined with certain other aspects of the game (such as high defense) make Dark Flare do less damage, but it still does damage. That's not negative synergy, that's less good synergy.

Less good synergy? It's not good synergy. It's bad synergy. If a skill deals damage based on the damage received and there's a buff out there that reduces damage received, how in the world is that good synergy? Just because it still does damage doesn't mean it's good synergy on a lesser scale. It's not a hard concept to grasp!

This is a good point. Shadow stars doesn't have synergy with Expert Star Handling, but it does have good synergy with the NL class itself. Hm.

Half of the skill is only functional when Shadow Stars is active, which is almost always. Just because half of one skill has good synergy with the other skills, the other half has terrible, it doesn't even it out and suddenly put Expert Star Handling in the middle. The fact it has a wasted trait leaves it as a skill with bad synergy.

Doesn't take the attack of stars, but it does take the influence of your 1.75 dmg multiplier as well as buffs and pots and whatever else. Sounds like synergy to me. Considering it's passive and thus always working for you, and giving you free damage, which isn't small damage either. I wish I had passive poison that did 140%. I don't get a DoT at all unless I want to deliberately sacrifice my dpm.

Once again, free damage != synergy. The part about Venom that compliments other skills that NL's have is that venom has a chance to land per hit and NL's have multiple hits. That part has synergy. The part that doesn't lacks synergy is the fact that the damage dealt does not factor in star w.atk. This makes venom overall less effective for NL's, free damage or not.

I'll tell you what I use DoT's for, and you can tell me what you use them for. I use DoT's exclusively at bosses that have w.cancel up. There's no reason for me to use them otherwise when I do more damage with hurricane. That being said, I don't see the reason of using DoT's for anything besides at bosses with w.cancel. Ninja Ambush fits the bill in that case. If you're looking for it to do damage when you could normally just be attacking with avenger or TT, then I'd say that's a misunderstanding of the true usefulness of the skill.

Too bad Venom DoT and Ambush DoT doesn't work anymore when Weapon Cancel is up. Considering how much you fight high end bosses with NL's as you claimed you do, I figured you'd have realized this by now.

Yes, and it's greatly appreciated because we can't pot while attacking, we need to stop and pot thereby greatly reducing our dpm. NL's don't have that problem.

Considering you're talking so much about v3 vs v2, the same argument you presented will defeat the argument you presented here. -.-

As for game design, both have it. You and Dizzy assume that because one class has better synergy, that your class then has bad synergy. The truth of the matter is that your class merely has less good synergy. Less good =/= bad.

No, we both presented cases where the skills don't compliment each other. The fact archer skills have good synergy within themselves don't mean that we feel NL's have worse. We feel NL's have bad synergy because their skills are just thrown together without half ass thought. The reason why Alloy presented the archer skills to you is to show you what it means to have synergy. Not to compare it to Night Lords.

If a group is unable to pin a nonstationary boss, the problems for that group are far greater than less than optimal damage return from Dark Flare. When I go on boss runs, and it's often, the boss is always pinned. Need a grand total of 1 warrior to do that, or just fulfill the KB requirement to pin, which is doable easily on all bosses excluding PB, which you need warriors for crash anyway or you'll never kill it in time with it's damage reflect rates. If you're looking for the small exception for when Dark Flare isn't as useful, then please keep in mind that those times are the small exception, not the norm.

It doesn't matter if the group will have other problems outside of Dark Flare if they're unable to pin the boss. That wasn't the point. The point was to say that unless pinning/rushing conditions are met, Dark Flare has negative synergy in fighting non-stationary bosses. This does NOT change no matter how much difficulty a group has fighting a boss.

Twisting my words.

Read your words again then.

My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage, which is certainly not ignored by the times you've stated that NL's have low damage.
I've said I support an increase of synergy in the actual meaning of the word, where more things are working together to achieve an affect greater than their own individually. Like how Concentrate's secondary effect of reducing mp consumption means BM's don't need to pot mp as often and can save pot money.

The number times I mention that NL's have low damage is because you're under the assumption that they have unfairly high damage, which through by no means is a wish of mine for more NL damage. My desire for synergy is so that the skills and effects of those skills that a NL possesses aren't wasted like they are now. I've announced this several times but it seems like you're intentionally trying to ignore it.

That is NL's being strong. Apples are obtainable on an NL and they can use that themselves. If they are 200, they can echo for themselves. They can get SE gloves for themselves. They all have MW30 for themselves. They all have some %boss on their weapons. These are all doable by themselves, without the necessary help of their party.

I'm not even going to bother explaining. Look at this chart. There's also a lot more evidence within that thread that states NL's are a shoddy class regarding DPM even factoring in the average times getting hit, repotting, etc. It's the players that are playing those NL's being strong, nothing more.