2011-03-09, 05:20 PM
kanevaldier Wrote:Ok, let look at the numbers here. I looked at your link and as expected, the wiki is not accurate. No offense intended, but wikipedia is not really all that reputable. Anyone can put info on there regardless to its accuracy. So after that I decided to go to the treasury department web site and look up the actual figures. For the sake of saving space I rounded the numbers.
Current president Obama: Started term with a $10.6 trillion debt and in just 2 long years we sit at $14.2 trillion in debt. Thats a $3.6 trillion increase in only 2 years so if the trend continues we can be looking at a $17.8 trillion debt by 2012. That figure can potentially be higher if obama care is not stopped by the way.
Former president Bush Jr.: Started term with a $5.8 trillion debt and in just 8 years ended his run with $10.6 trillion debt. That a gain of only $4.8 trillion over the course of 8 years. So for argument sake in only 2 years time Obama has almost done what Bush took 8 years to do.
I wont even bother to bring it back as far as Reagan since the Bush comparison is good enough.
On to the constitution. As I stated, yes there have been several presidents who broke the constitution to propagate their agendas. That said, Obama was the only one of them who publicly stated to do certain things in order to fix this country and then as soon as he had the chance did a 180 degree flip. Sure all polaticians lie to some degree but most of them at least try to make it look good by doing some of what they said they would do. Obama had his way during the first 2 years he was in office and could have made good on something, but instead he gave everyone the middle finger. Now he no longer has the ability to force feed us because he no longer controls 1 of the 2 houses of congress. Bottom line is that he is great at one thing besides reading from the telepromter, lying.
I know that Wikipedia is not that reliable (mentioned it in by post, in fact). I was just too lazy to scroll down 3-4 url links (thanks for the better source by the way), but thanks for the better treasury link.
And damn, I'm going to have to pull this card. I'm abandoning my previous arguement.
Despite the huge debt we have, it's really not a problem for the U.S. Yet anyways. Our GDP is still higher than the national debt, so we're still in the clear. In fact, looking at the ratio of debt to GDP, we're doing better than the 1940s. Unlike, say, poor Greece which is screwing itself over, the U.S. is the richest country in the world. The debt won't implode on us soon. If you want to read more look here.
And how the hell did we start talking about debts in this thread?
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Constitution: Ya realize the great man FDR was accused of breaking the Constitution for his New Deal, right? And Obama was not the only President to have publicly stated to do certain things in order to fix the country. Thomas Jefferson did the complete opposite of nearly every one of his promises. Johnson did the opposite of what he was hired to do so (but he was impeached anyways, but he screwed us over for a bit in Reconstruction). And on the Obama meter he kept much more promises than broke them.
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Other previous presidents breaking the constitution does not justify breaking it now (and it didnt justify breaking it back then either). If I went out and killed someone and I got away with it, does that mean its perfectly fine for someone else to murder? it does not. Using the "well he did it too" excuse is no less than childish.
People need to realize that the constitution is a Law, and the highest one in the nation, and it is the reason any of us have rights - its the only thing separating us from a tyranny. Its sad that so many people freely attack the source of our freedoms.
Regarding the Thomas Jefferson quote, please verify that it is real. The only site that has it is this one according to google: http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/archi...641-3.html
And speaking of expiration dates, the Patriot Act had one, but both Obama and Bush refused to respect that and constantly extended it.
Because I dont fall within the Right-Left Paradigm. I only advocate freedom.
And I am not irrational about my expectations. I expect Obama, like Bush and other presidents before him, to work towards destroying out freedoms. So far, that is exactly what is going on. Apparently, you cant even turn your back to a polititian these days without being assaulted.
Too many people view the world as black and white, but its more than just two sides and a few in the middle. There are several dimensions.
Change takes time, but that isnt the only factor that is important.
Is change occuring? If so, is it good or bad? How fast is this change occuring? Etc.
So far, change is occuring, but it isnt the type of change that is good. For the topic at hand, Obama is expanding upon Bush's detention policies (that candidate Obama opposed), and I dont believe this is a good change. Not only have we been lied to by Obama (not the first time either), but he pulled a complete 180, and is doing the opposite of what we expected him to do when many of us voted for him.
Although this isnt the topic, I will say that I have openly opposed Bush. The only reason I'm not talking a lot about him is the fact that he no longer is in office.
Regarding free market economics, the free market did not fail. It was the economic policies of several of our past presidents and changing the laws to be more favourable to only certain groups. One of those groups is banks. For example, glass steagall (a law, interestingly enough, that was meant to prevent a 2nd great depression) was repealed under Clinton's administration, and it lead to the economic ressession of today. It also lead to the bailout where the banks (again) received trillions in tax payer dollars for failing.
If we would have had a real free market, these businesses would fail, and newer businesses would simply take their place. Instead congress was fearmongered into paying off the bankers and rewarding failure at the cost of our money.
Oops, I was hoping you wouldn't notice the list of crappy Presidents I posted, but I'm a bit rusty on my APUSH stuff so I couldn't remember all of the Presidents. Anyways, read what I responded to.
While you are right in saying that other presidents have gone against the constitution, no other president has done so to the degree that Obama has.
I just provided that list to say that there are other Presidents that broke the Constitution worse than Obama did. I still don't exactly get how Obama is breaking the Constitution, either (don't bring the not a natural born citizen up). Raising the national debt is not breaking the Constitution.
And the free market...we will never know how well the real deal would do unless we test it out, but I still quite think that the pre-1900s free market failed (Thank god for Roosevelt and Taft), the 1920s free market failed (Great Depression derp) and the 1980s wasn't that bad, but Reagan did increase our debt a lot.