2010-01-26, 09:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 2010-01-27, 04:33 AM by Knight5n1p3r.)
KaidaTan Wrote:The math itself isn't wrong, but as the three posters above me mentioned, you missed some very important things which make your numbers incredibly unrealistic. I have personally beaten similarly leveled Night Lords in damage with my Bowmaster, so I'm well aware that they're nothing special until they're tricked out. But really, you should have rechecked your setup if Marksmen came out over NightLords, because everyone here and ever calculator disagrees. Aside from the fact that good gear helps Marksmen less than most classes and helps Nightlords more than most classes, there's still Snipe and its horrible cooldown. Every bit of math ever done shows that Marksmen would be pretty crazy if they actually could shoot it every 4 or 5 seconds, but realistically it's something like 7 or 8. That's why I try my best to emulate realism by putting a cooldown modifier in both my Corsair calc and the Marksman calc I made for Carlos. I don't know what situations these numbers could be used for, but they seem to be pretty far from any real situation I've run into.
I understand where you're coming from. Marksmen actually get the best deal in this table for two reasons. First being that Strafe is spammed. Realistically, with a monster attacking you and such, you are forced to pause between attacks. Marksmen have a significantly long pick up time, meaning that their strafe is actually far inferior when it's not being spammed. Secondly, I did use the 5 second Snipe cooldown, which of course is unrealistic due to client and server lag, in realism, it's usually around 6-7 seconds. Both of these conditions cannot be accounted for since pickup time is disregarded in DPM, and Snipe cooldown depends on the speed of the internet connection and the current server lag. So granted yes, compared to other classes, Marksmen do shine a bit brighter in this table compared to other classes, but from a theoretical standpoint it is only appropriate. In chemistry, calculation with ideal gases is done because of their precision and simplicity, and in physics we disregard air resistance because its a negligible complication. However, in both cases, the result is found with the understanding that it will not be perfectly realistic. In realism, from what I have seen and heard, unappled, an MMs DPM is generally greater than a BMs in early 4th job-- my results match up with this statement, though there will always be a level of subjectivity that can be argued to each situation.
Heliocentric Wrote:Can someone do calculations with the new Rapid Fire (200% damage) and compare it with Triple Throw w/o SE and Hurricane w/ SE and find out the damage %/minute of each? I'm curious of these standings with the characters soloing.
Just a quickie, all are level 200. For equips, I know there is controversy over the weapon attack values I have implemented, but for ease of reusing calculations already in the thread, I'll use a perfect 10% weapon (Equivalent of "High DPM" in thread). This comes with the understanding that Night Lords will have the biggest boost in this scenario, since they have the largest gain from weapon attack:
Spoiler
Stereo Wrote:Even including, oh, Warrior elixirs? Would balance things out quite a bit.
NLs (perfect) = 99 (claw) + 30 (stars) attack
BMs (perfect) = 150 (bow) + 10 (mastery) + 17.333 (that atk skill thingy)
->
99 + 30 + 12
150 + 10 + 21.333
NLs go from 72.7% of a BM's w.atk to 77.8% of w.atk. Meaning instead of 5.1 vs. 5.2 mil dpm at 180, it's 5.57 vs. 5.32 mil dpm, in favour of the NL.
Of course, you successfully showed that without attack pots, attack gloves, attack capes/shoes, attack pendants, BMs are better. But how common is the situation where someone has a 150 atk bow (or 99 atk claw) and none of those?
Say you add the rest -
MoN - 10 atk
Glove - 15 atk
Cape - 5 atk
Shoes - 2 atk
Blessing of Spirit - 12 atk
NL - 99 + 30 + 12 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2 + 12 = 185
BM - 150 + 10 + 21.333 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2+ 12 = 225.333
Now the NL has 82% of the BM's attack, still without using onyx apples. With Apples it's over 90%.
I'll also note that my Paladin has roughly 52/56 of those extra attack I just added (differently set on my NL, comes out to 54/56), so it's not at all unreasonable to expect this kind of gear on a 4th job character.
I am considering revising using higher weapon attack values. The problem is however, this is going to take a really long time, and if I really do decide to worry strictly about the equip builds, I will also need to take into account AP builds as well. People are getting me on the weapon attack values I used, but realistically, AP build also proposes an equal problem. I am using "high-stat" builds, where are essentially the equivalent of using an average weapon, but people are so blinded by the weapon attack that they fail to see that the SP build makes a significant difference as well. Z-helms are not important because 15 dex = 3 weapon attack, they are important because 15/15/15/15 provides a 30 stat boost, which will propel you to equipping your next level weapon, which can potentially be worth more than the stat damage boost it gives. I am currently trying to devise a method of finding a "baseline" set of equips that can be agreed on by all (which is really impossible, but one can try). However as I said before, this thread's purpose is not meant to model a realistic scenario--we have DPM/DPS calculators for that. It is meant to compare the classes inherent DPM, and for the most part, my current builds serve that purpose quite well.
Dusk Wrote:By who?
So I guess it's okay to ignore the 50+ weapon attack that is provided by gloves, shoes, capes, pendants, and etc. because Apples make such a big difference...
Damage per strike, or damage per hit is used commonly to measure the KB ability of a certain skill, and also for training purposes to see whether one can 1 hit or 2 hit monsters, etc. etc. I commonly mistake the two when people ask "what is the average DPS of ____?"
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic by the second part, I am assuming you are. Regardless of your intentions, one will actually find that what you say is true. Apples provide such a large increase in weapon attack that they essentially dwarf the weapon attack gained from scrolling ad equips-- they actually represent a "godly equipped" form of a character. If you want, you can clip on an additional 50 weapon attack to appled form of all the classes (using perfect weapons), and you will find that the DPM arrangement of characters stays more or less the same (I know because I actually did try it out).