"Tiger" Parenting.

Otherwise meaning stereotypical Asian parenting. I want to hear some serious thoughts on it. Basically, I think Tiger Parenting should be viewed upon as child abuse. Just reading some of the things Amy Chua has written in her book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, makes me think child services should descend on her household.

Refusing to let her daughter get up from the piano until she had learned her piece. Not for water, not to go to the bathroom, just hours of being chained to a piano. Refusing them dinner until they did what she said. Restricting their social lives. Slandering them to their faces. Acting like anything less than an A is the end of the world, and punishing them until they get just that. Depriving them of their own thought. The list goes on.

So, starvation, forced containment, verbal abuse, forced sleep deprivation etc. If a parent was doing this to anyone else, the Police would be at their doorstep within minutes. Why is it acceptable to allow them to do it to their child, a vulnerable being? I don't think it should be.

Someone being your child should in no way make this behaviour acceptable. I once had to talk a suicidal friend in to calm because of his tiger parents. This is not me trying to deprive parents of their right to parent, this is about me wanting children to be afforded the same right to decent treatment as adults. If you want to see me as attempting to destroy the concept of a family, then fine. In all honesty, I don't agree with the concept of the family. The relationship between a parent and a child should be one of a guide. I think any parent who thinks they have the right to exercise excess control over their child is wrong, and Tiger Parents take it to a dangerous level.

Depends on the cultural context. Essentially I've been through it, so I know what it's like and what it does.

Depending on the situation it may be very effective, or it may be aggravatory. It's not all bad. A little like my country's governance.

Hadriel

Yes, tiger parenting is really bad for children, especially when it's related to learning school stuff and the "wtp NO A+!!!" mentality.

80% Of the things you learn at school when you're 4~10, you have forgotten at the time you're 15.
50% Of the things you learn at school when you're 11~18, you have forgotten at the time you're 25.

Seeing these young tiger parent kids on television in documentary's learning stuff when they're only 6 years old... I always think about how useless it is, since they will have forgotten almost everything about it when they're 25 years old... It's so much time wasted... for nothing. Only because their retarded parents want to have -THEIR- new Einstein...

If those tiger parents could buy a new Einstein child in a store instead of raising a "normal" child of their own, a lot of them would choose that new Einstein child in the store... sad but true...

I remember watching this thing about this girl who was raised to be an olympian since birth. She's only seen her parents 6 months total out of about 15 years. When she was 12 she went home for christmas, and told her dad she didn't want to go back. They then turned to him during the interview and he smiled, with his pidgeon english and said,

"Yes she did say that, and I explained she must finish what she started, then I beat her." He said it so casually I just broke out laughing, man I looked like a complete plantain.

To be honest, asian culture in general see's child hood as a form of boot camp, real training to be a sufficient adult, seems to be working considering how much better they are compared to the rest of the world in terms of intelligence. Sometimes I feel like we are a little laid back, such as still keeping summer vacation when it's entire purpose was to give help to farm families. Anyone here own a farm?

The part that disgusted me the most was how she described her daughter's "happiness" after she had mastered the piece. There was no appreciation for music in it, there was no appreciation for success in it. She simply was happy to have escaped a death threat that nearly pushed her over the edge.

The day I learn that I've got cancer and will die within some time span, I will go and stab this woman to death.

One of the articles that I've read from my people on this subject said something I like a lot.

What would the world be like if every of our children were to excel at Math and Piano?

Eh, combined with the ferocious indoctrination of filial piety and obedience, in addition to face giving and being surrounded by this every day, most of the people I know tend not to even be able to see the cruelty that they inflict on themselves and shrug off/wallow in any more.

I know for certain that plenty of schools Iv'e been to don't teach physical education, they simply yell at you and punish you until you do it right/the way they want you to. Or is it like that over on your end, too? I mean, military practices and physical classes seem to be deeply interwoven.

In my life I have called childrens protective services over a dozen times to report abusive parents. Only once were they of European descent. Mostly of Asian descent but a few times they were from the middle east. Why? If you want to live in Canada, you better leave that pomegranate behind in your country. It may be acceptable over in Asia to destroy your child for your own benefit. However I cannot in good conscience leave a child in that situation.

I mean sure, you see a whole lot more talent in asia but a child should not be bred from birth to be a certain way, especially if it comes at that cost.

I note that documentaries do not always present all sides of an issue. The focus is up to the producer, but generally they do cover quite a fair bit of ground (but again, not all the ground).

In the interface of Western and Chinese culture, I do not agree with the form of "Tiger Parenting" that TS has described i.e. the extreme cases. But I am for strict parenting, though I tend to lean on the less strict side myself i.e. earn your freedom.

But do remember that the Chinese culture then is not the same as the Chinese culture now. Especially with the 1-child policy and the increasing amount of education (also from the West) as well as the increasing Western influence, it's more moderate now. Olympics... well... that likely will not change - China is changing but not that quickly.

As a gentle reminder, most of you are not from the Asian community and will likely react to this fairly vehemently, but whether it is acceptable or not is still defined by the local society. And again, China (and Asia) is slowly changing.

Hadriel

What do I think of it? I think it's good in its way. However, in example you said, that's way too far.

My parent, for example, kind of forced me to do things I didn't want when I was a kid (kindergarten~4th grade kid). But when I grew up, they stopped doing that and start letting me decide things by myself. Then one day I think about what I've been through, things that my parents forced me to do when I was a kid, I understand them for doing so. I looked things in their perspective. While we forget 80% of what we learned when we were kids, it's also easiest to learn new stuff when we were kids too. IF they had let me do things as I wish back then, I would've been a lot... more stupid then I am now.

Parents want you to have good future and that's it. They prepare for you as much as they can, with clues about you when you're 3 years old can provide.

Strict parenting breeds drones. Our school system does this well enough. This world has been stuck in a rut for far too long. We suffer and most of us don't even realize it. We need kids who aren't afraid to speak their mind, who aren't afraid to make mistakes, who will not blindly follow orders given by their elders. My generation began this trend in startling numbers and it must continue, or we're doomed to never evolve again. Remember this, just because your parents have been alive a quarter century longer than you, or even more, does not mean they know better. Their generation was parented by fear, and it's not right. It will never be right.

Just my opinion. If our children are too scared to change the ways of their parents, we doom ourselves to this way of life, for all time.

Edit @ Above: They may be trying to do whats best for you. That doesn't make it right. There are less brutal ways to teach your kids what they need to know. Remember that when you become a parent.

Note: You don't define what's right. You feel what's right and therefore do what you think is right. Remember that the majority of the world's conflicts started with a disagreement/conflict of interests/conflicting views.

Parents have a great deal more power than their children have (obviously!) until the child is old enough to handle that power. We can only watch others, but not interfere. The most we can do is learn from their mistakes, and avoid future ones.

And nobody said that the right thing to do is the best thing to do. Again a conflict of interest - the greater good or the right thing to do, and all these in whose PoV? Therefore, I can understand where you are coming from but I cannot agree with you.

*edit* Just musing that in school we've beaten this topic to the 18th level of hell... I know almost every side of the argument, but I don't necessarily agree with them all. I prefer being neutral. *edit*

Hadriel

Serious bomb on this (I'm Asian), but quite frankly I think these parents care more about the honor they're kid will bring instead of their love of them. In my opinion, parents shouldn't have any expectation of their kid to surpass themselves. My dad is pretty cool with this, but my mom goes wayyyy over the edge sometimes. They're not as bad as the Tiger mom but they're much more strict than the average American parent.

Anyways, hell, it might be a matter of perspective. That kid made it into Harvard. In the future, Sophia might actually thank her mom for giving her a great life.

It's a different story with the younger sister though, lolololol.

Aww what a nice and cute avatar Maize =P

Suddenly I'm reminded of Russell Peters...

Oh yes... the sibilings! Don't forget the gender too.

Time'z a-changin'...

Hadriel

I thought that article was a satire.

It's indeed terrible. No wonder why so many kids are suicidal in these families. Parents that think in such way don't really deserve to have kids, they don't want kids, they just want a toy, for them to brain wash and turn into something that will give them honor. They don't respect the kid, it's thoughts, they just want a robot instead of a son.
It's disgusting, and kinda unbeliavable that in the 21st century, this kind of parents still exist.

My parents did this for me, but not on such an extreme scale. My parents don't believe in the "American" way of raising kids in an uncontrolled light hearted "it's okay kid you can do whatever you want because we want you to be an imaginative open minded free frolicking individual". My parents believe that this just makes kids extremely lazy and disrespectful. What i believe the Tiger parenting style encourages is the basic principles of many asian cultural traditions. Basically you earn your respect, you earn what you want in life, you earn your way into the world because no one is going too give it to you. Many asian cultures believe the best way to earn this respect is through the education system, which is why it's so heavily emphasized; which is why "u need tha A+ !"

My parents did teach me all these things and more. As a parent you encourage the free thinking that the American culture thinks of, but also need to bring a little discipline (because who likes spoiled little brats that run up and down over their parents?) It's really up to the parents how they want to raise their kids, but i don't think you need to be such an extreme with the extent that Chua did. I mean cutting off food and water is TOO drastic, ridiculous even.

To be slightly fair to Amy Chua, her book acknowledged that Tiger parenting doesn't work for everyone and does acknowledge some her faults. Her book is a memoir, not necessarily a Bible for how to parent.

The anecdote about "The Little White Donkey", the song she forced her daughter to learn to perfection, wasn't too horrible and one I could certainly sympathize. The whole idea of laughing about all the trouble once her daughter managed to successfully play the song might seem just wrong to some people, but I disagree. I don't ever think that incidents like these leave the kids to be resentful towards their parents, but I do agree with what Kal said and the idea that incidents like these bear deep mental scars and trauma that leads them to fear punishment that can possibly lead to total deference to authority figures and fear to speak up.

I had zero trouble with elementary school, but there was one thing I didn't understand right away because the teacher didn't really teach it at all. That was long multiplication. I'd get by it by thinking about how to get an answer mentally, but I'd later need to get help. My dad decided to help me one day, and I remember him screaming at me the entire time when I didn't get something that he was showing me. Today, I'm not exactly brilliant at math, but I certainly know how to bear with it and do well enough in a math course. But even today, I still remember about the night my dad kept screaming at me until I cried to learn long multiplication. I don't want to kill him because of it and similar treatment like that and I can still laugh with him and talk with him, but I notice that I really avoid my dad when it comes to talking about problems.

I wasn't totally Tiger parented. I have free time, a social life, and hobbies; just the fact I'm here on Southperry says enough. I'll admit that my parents definitely a lot stricter than the average American parent, though. I do know a lot of classmates who are, however, and while they're pleasant and friendly people to talk to, I'm really annoyed by their attitudes sometimes. These are the guys who conform to the expectations of school. They'll pick extracurriculars not because they want to explore areas of interest or do something they want to do, but they want to make their résumés look good. A lot of band and orchestra kids will stay in the program not because they love music, but because they want to build something impressive for their résumé. They'll sometimes take summer courses to skip pre-requisite courses for higher level ones to make their résumés look more impressive and secure. When we talk about what we want to do after high school, they tell me that they want to pursue the most socially and financially secure occupations- I get "doctor", "business", and "lawyer" a lot. One of my acquaintances I talk to pretty regularly once caught me self-studying Japanese and asked me why I do it. I told him I do it because it's fun, related to my interests, and related to my hobbies. He told me that it wasn't useful, and that Chinese was much better to know, because it has a lot of applications when you work in big businesses, especially international ones.

What Tiger parenting doesn't teach these kids is to be daring. These kids are extreme conformists. They'll conform to the school systems, and as adults, they'll want to stay comfortably in socially and financially secure jobs. It's a pity that such a waste of effort and knowledge is spent on trying to conform with the system instead of becoming leaders, revolutionaries, or innovators by doing something they like and wanting to think outside the system instead of inside it. It truly is. I don't think I meet too many people with goals and dreams they're terribly passionate about, but I can say that these people are better and more interesting people than drones made through Tiger parenting.

I thought that article was a satire.

I almost did too.

However I do think that parents should have a role in guiding their children to try certain things, even that they "don't like" at first. Children aren't born knowing what they want to do. They have to experience it first, some way or other, then they can decide for themselves. Otherwise they may never know.

On the other hand, one must be careful not to override a child's intrinsic motivation in the process.

Note: You don't define what's right. You feel what's right and therefore do what you think is right. Remember that the majority of the world's conflicts started with a disagreement/conflict of interests/conflicting views.

Parents have a great deal more power than their children have (obviously!) until the child is old enough to handle that power. We can only watch others, but not interfere. The most we can do is learn from their mistakes, and avoid future ones.

And nobody said that the right thing to do is the best thing to do. Again a conflict of interest - the greater good or the right thing to do, and all these in whose PoV? Therefore, I can understand where you are coming from but I cannot agree with you.

*edit* Just musing that in school we've beaten this topic to the 18th level of hell... I know almost every side of the argument, but I don't necessarily agree with them all. I prefer being neutral. *edit*

Hadriel

I'm sorry, but I cannot let this go at just that. You honestly believe it's right that a parent impose their will on a child? This assumes that parents are good, well informed people who will always do the right thing. News flash son, they don't. Now, I believe in keeping a kid safe until they are capable of doing it for themselves, I believe that when they are really young you must impose some on them, however you must also let them know that this is because there are dangers they need to be aware of. That said, NO PARENT has the right, nor the privelege to decide the fate of another human being, not even their own child. What if you were being forced into college to become a doctor, and yet you had a love and a talent for writing. You could have become one of the most inspiring writers in the world. The stupid, selfish, pathetic choices of your parents may have deprived you, and all who would have loved your pieces of a great artist. All for their own petty honor. So you can see why I might get a bit pissed when I know millions of asian children are ignoring natural talent and dreams so that they can do what Mom and Dad tell them is best, as if they really know.

My parents did this for me, but not on such an extreme scale. My parents don't believe in the "American" way of raising kids in an uncontrolled light hearted "it's okay kid you can do whatever you want because we want you to be an imaginative open minded free frolicking individual". My parents believe that this just makes kids extremely lazy and disrespectful. What i believe the Tiger parenting style encourages is the basic principles of many asian cultural traditions. Basically you earn your respect, you earn what you want in life, you earn your way into the world because no one is going too give it to you. Many asian cultures believe the best way to earn this respect is through the education system, which is why it's so heavily emphasized; which is why "u need tha A+ !"

My parents did teach me all these things and more. As a parent you encourage the free thinking that the American culture thinks of, but also need to bring a little discipline (because who likes spoiled little brats that run up and down over their parents?) It's really up to the parents how they want to raise their kids, but i don't think you need to be such an extreme with the extent that Chua did. I mean cutting off food and water is TOO drastic, ridiculous even.

Eh, First I'd like to start with the fact that this is NOT the american idea of raising a child. In fact I've noticed that American's I've met tend to still have stricter parents, focusing on respect through dominance and etc. I want to be clear i'm not directly making a stab at your parents here. However my parent's allowed me to become an open-minded individual such as you describe, and I did become slightly lazy and disrespectful, but it depends on the point of view. What have your parents done to earn the respect you give them? You talk about earning respect, why should you automatically respect them, but work your entire life to earn theirs? When I look at someone with those A+'s, vs someone with D-'s, I view them the same. Why? It says nothing about character, it will usually say a lot about their upbringing, and nothing more. The problem seems to be that your parents, and apparently you in their footsteps are so fixated on that being the way life is SUPPOSED to be. Stuck in the ways of past.

Let me state that I have no reason to disrespect you both, and I'm not trying to, but I must be clear on how selfish parents can be, especially Asian parents.

Edit @ Smooth Criminal: If there was a like button or a thanks button, I would have made at least 3 more accounts just to keep hitting it for that post. We need more leaders, more revolutionaries. People who can see beyond their own ambitions to the betterment of this world. Tiger parenting is NOT helping that.

Eh, what I don't get is how the connection is made between 'right' and what the parents advocate. Let's take one of the two most common examples. Piano. For the other most common one, making a child do well at math is probably beneficial because science often requires it, and scientists are in demand, so it would make sense if they want their child to have a job. But piano? It's nice to listen to and all, but if you strip away all the happiness by beating the child into performing, then there's practically nothing left. Last I recall I don't think there was significant demand for piano players, so apart from the prestige maybe... how is this 'right'?