Mandatory Vaccinations

Hey man I'm pretty sure 99% of us here don't have autism and received vaccines.

I never said anything about autism. Read my posts before putting words in my mouth please.

Actually, I did do real well thanks. I have a college diploma that also states that fact. Oh, and I graduated with highest honors....wow, must mean I am not very smart. You on the other hand, who obviously blindly believes in the establishment, must be incredibly smart. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you were right. Wait, lets not get to hasty. Lets slow down for a second. You are welcome to have your opinions on this as are the rest of the people posting on this or just reading it. Let me put it another way. How many of you pro-vaccine people have children? Now let me give you a little scenario. Those of you that are pro-vaccine say that its ok to sacrifice those unfortunate few who have adverse reactions to the vaccines because the greater whole is safe. Well here is the scenario. Lets say you have a child and said child get vaccinated, developes a reaction and dies. Do you now still feel the same or are you instead outraged and upset because if you had not done that your child would still be alive? This is how I look at it because I do have children.

Why do you keep saying we blindly follow the establishment? Because we don't believe the government is evil and is out to get us? Anyone who disagrees with you is just a sheep following the crowd?

Edit: Also, http://www.naturalnews.com/030991_Gardasil_vaccine.html

I'm not seeing an original citation on the 49 deaths in that article. So I headed to VAERS, public data, to give it a look.

This is the number of deaths after receiving Gardasil vaccine (or, in fact, anywhere from 2 days to a little over 2 years) - there's no implication of causality, and of course the 10% rate of reporting potentially applies here.
(based on date submitted to VAERS - actual dates of vaccination are anywhere before report, with date of death some time after the vaccination)
2006 - none reported - only 428 Gardasil-related reports in total
2007 - 12 reported deaths (11 female, one unknown)
2008 - 18 reported deaths (17 female, one unknown)
2009 - 17 reported deaths (at least 6 before June 2009; 11 female, 6 unknown)
2010 - 15 reported deaths (at least 2 before June 2009; 10 female, 2 male, 3 unknown)

This adds to 47 up to 2009, not 49, and there's no specific reason to believe Gardasil was the cause of any of them. Causes of death are extremely varied; I can pull the descriptions if you like.

I never said anything about autism. Read my posts before putting words in my mouth please.

Oops. Sorry, I thought you were referring to autism as the deadly disease. Doesn't make that much of a difference though.

@ Your Amish/North Ohio/etc.

It's probably caused by genetics, not the fact that they don't take vaccines. All of the people in those areas usually only mate with themselves. For example, there is an extremely high frequency of Amish kids with this nameless disease, which also happens to have mental retardation as a symptom.

@ Toxic Substances

Guess what. Ammonia is toxic. There are trace amounts of ammonia in the atmosphere. Guess what. We're not dead.

Guess what. 99% of Southperry members had their bleeping vaccines. Guess what. 99% of Southperryans don't have autism.

First, that disease is not autism. Your goint to have to explain how this genetic disease disproves a connection with the Amish and their extremely low vaccination rates.

Ammonia is only toxic once you have reached a certain concentration of it or consume enough of it in a liquid form. You've proved nothing execpt a lack of knowledge of toxicology.


Also, do you believe arbitrary and make believe statistics prove anything?

Go look at my 198,000 sources.

Once you read all 198000 sources and verify that they are accurate and irrefutable, I will.

Here's ONE source that says Autism and Vaccines aren't linked... http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/Denta...angers.htm

Here's ONE source that says Autism and Vaccines aren't linked... http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/Denta...angers.htm

Oh, you're right. One bad source means they're all bad.

I'M SURRENDURING MY ARGUMENT THEN.

Why do you keep saying we blindly follow the establishment? Because we don't believe the government is evil and is out to get us? Anyone who disagrees with you is just a sheep following the crowd?

This is only the case when you argue that you are right and I am wrong. I am not saying that I am right and I am not saying that you are either. I personally hope that I am wrong with the government and big business. Unfortunately, at this time I do not believe that I am. Everything that I have seen the government and big business do seems to point to certain things just not adding up. This next part is off topic so I am will keep it as short as possible, but I feel it needs to be used as an example. Look at the current financial crisis. The economy took a major dump because of bad loans given by business like AIG, Goldman Saks, JP Morgan/Chase, ect. They took a gamble and lost right? Wrong, they gambled and when they lost the government stepped in and covered the bets. Its not hard to see this. Even more to the point, who has been the head of the federal reserve bank? Hmmm....Former heads of Goldman Saks. Some have even been in the government working as head of the treasury department and other areas. I guess after getting their giant bonuses they thought they had to give back by serving in the federal government.

I'm not seeing an original citation on the 49 deaths in that article. So I headed to VAERS, public data, to give it a look.

This is the number of deaths after receiving Gardasil vaccine (or, in fact, anywhere from 2 days to a little over 2 years) - there's no implication of causality, and of course the 10% rate of reporting potentially applies here.
(based on date submitted to VAERS - actual dates of vaccination are anywhere before report, with date of death some time after the vaccination)
2006 - none reported - only 428 Gardasil-related reports in total
2007 - 12 reported deaths (11 female, one unknown)
2008 - 18 reported deaths (17 female, one unknown)
2009 - 17 reported deaths (at least 6 before June 2009; 11 female, 6 unknown)
2010 - 15 reported deaths (at least 2 before June 2009; 10 female, 2 male, 3 unknown)

This adds to 47 up to 2009, not 49, and there's no specific reason to believe Gardasil was the cause of any of them. Causes of death are extremely varied; I can pull the descriptions if you like.

This source, http://vactruth.com/2010/03/31/toyota-52...-recalled/ , claims VAERS was at 49. Perhaps two where deleted for some reason or another.
And there is the potential for fraud in VAERS:

“Merck said in its VAERS report that a physician reported that my daughter had an enlarged spleen caused by a virus that was life threatening,” Tarsell told The Examiner. “That was totally made up. The autopsy report listed the cause of her death as ‘undetermined,’ a followup by CDC found no evidence of a viral infection, and the pathologist and her doctors all denied telling them that.”

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/belt...ted-deaths

Edit: Good thing I did waste my time with those several hundred thousand sources. And seriously why am I picked of for refuting evidence while others simply are able to dismiss the evidence I present without refuting. Obviously not everyone is guilty of such a thing, but its getting annoying, especially when people decide to pull numbers out of their asses.

Anyway, regarding Gardasil, I'd say dont take it. Just get some pap smears. As far as I know, it doesnt kill or paralyze you and it prevents cancer.

Edit: Good thing I did waste my time with those several hundred thousand sources. And seriously why am I picked of for refuting evidence while others simply are able to dismiss the evidence I present without refuting. Obviously not everyone is guilty of such a thing, but its getting annoying, especially when people decide to pull numbers out of their asses.

I hear you brother. I dont think most of them are reading the entire post. More like skimming through and just picking the parts they want to use to try and make a point.

This is only the case when you argue that you are right and I am wrong. I am not saying that I am right and I am not saying that you are either. I personally hope that I am wrong with the government and big business. Unfortunately, at this time I do not believe that I am. Everything that I have seen the government and big business do seems to point to certain things just not adding up. This next part is off topic so I am will keep it as short as possible, but I feel it needs to be used as an example. Look at the current financial crisis. The economy took a major dump because of bad loans given by business like AIG, Goldman Saks, JP Morgan/Chase, ect. They took a gamble and lost right? Wrong, they gambled and when they lost the government stepped in and covered the bets. Its not hard to see this. Even more to the point, who has been the head of the federal reserve bank? Hmmm....Former heads of Goldman Saks. Some have even been in the government working as head of the treasury department and other areas. I guess after getting their giant bonuses they thought they had to give back by serving in the federal government.

Would you prefer that those businesses go down in flames and thousands of people lose their jobs? I mean, I thought that the heads giving themselves bonuses was stupid and irresponsible, but a financial crash would have dealt more damage than a few greedy bastards.

You have been implying that we are all a bunch of stupid brainless zombies. I don't have a problem with you believing the government is evil. I DO have a problem with you calling me an idiot for not believing it too.

Would you prefer that those businesses go down in flames and thousands of people lose their jobs? I mean, I thought that the heads giving themselves bonuses was stupid and irresponsible, but a financial crash would have dealt more damage than a few greedy bastards.

You have been implying that we are all a bunch of stupid brainless zombies. I don't have a problem with you believing the government is evil. I DO have a problem with you calling me an idiot for not believing it too.

I dont believe the people that contributed to several deaths an disabilities across this nation deserve my sympathy. Im fact, I believe a good number of people in drug companies like Merck need to go to jail for corruption, fraud, and at the very least reckless endangerment. Too bad the law protects them from prosecution, going against the rule of law - we all should be equal in the eyes of the law and no one should be above the law.

And I'm going to not contribute to the second part of your post. Lets just not cause a flame war.

I dont believe the people that contributed to several deaths an disabilities across this nation deserve my sympathy. Im fact, I believe a good number of people in drug companies like Merck need to go to jail for corruption, fraud, and at the very least reckless endangerment. Too bad the law protects them from prosecution, going against the rule of law - we all should be equal in the eyes of the law and no one should be above the law.

I never said people should be above the law. I said that thousands of people shouldn't be out of a job because a company made bad loans. I said nothing about drug company executives.

Also, I found this article pretty interesting: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

Would you prefer that those businesses go down in flames and thousands of people lose their jobs? I mean, I thought that the heads giving themselves bonuses was stupid and irresponsible, but a financial crash would have dealt more damage than a few greedy bastards.

You have been implying that we are all a bunch of stupid brainless zombies. I don't have a problem with you believing the government is evil. I DO have a problem with you calling me an idiot for not believing it too.

Ummm, hi, thousands of people have lost their jobs because of the crash. Those "few greedy bastards" made millions from the crash and are still making millions. Mean while the rest of us poor saps are kicked to the curb. As for the brainless zombie comment, that is you interpretation of what I am saying, not what I am implying. I am simply trying to inform or at least give a different perspective for you to look at. The problem is that most people go through life like race horses. Living with blinders on their faces and never looking beyond that tunnel vision. I dont think that makes you an idiot at all. Conformist, maybe but not an idiot. Comments like that though, make me rethink and consider the idiot claim.

This source, http://vactruth.com/2010/03/31/toyota-52...-recalled/ , claims VAERS was at 49. Perhaps two where deleted for some reason or another.

Thanks, that helped me identify a massive flaw in the original article you posted. A misrepresentation of the numbers. 49 unexplained deaths by Jan 31 2010 fits the VAERS data.

As of Jan. 31, 2010, 49 unexplained deaths following Gardasil injections have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control [...]

An October 2008 CDC report said 28 million girls and women who received Gardasil had no more adverse medical outcomes than those who hadn't gotten the shots.

As of June 2009, 15 million girls have been injected with the Gardasil vaccine. Out of 15 million people, 49 deaths may not seem like a lot.

Gardasil's been available since late 2006. If we extrapolate 28 million, assuming a constant number of vaccinations, by January 2010 it should be closer to 46 million.

49 deaths in at least 28 million, probably more than 46 million people? Less than 1/2 the rate they claimed, even being conservative.

All I can conclude here is that the author of the article cares more about sensational numbers than about the truth, because reporting 3 times the actual rate of death is completely ridiculous. Unfortunately it also invalidates any attempt of yours at comparing the morbidity of the vaccine vs. HPV.

Ummm, hi, thousands of people have lost their jobs because of the crash. Those "few greedy bastards" made millions from the crash and are still making millions. Mean while the rest of us poor saps are kicked to the curb. As for the brainless zombie comment, that is you interpretation of what I am saying, not what I am implying. I am simply trying to inform or at least give a different perspective for you to look at. The problem is that most people go through life like race horses. Living with blinders on their faces and never looking beyond that tunnel vision. I dont think that makes you an idiot at all. Conformist, maybe but not an idiot. Comments like that though, make me rethink and consider the idiot claim.

Sometimes, I'm not the most informed person. I haven't personally reviewed all the outcomes of the market crash, but I'm pretty sure that major companies shutting down means more people losing their jobs than major companies staying open, even if they downsize.

You do realize that your entire second part of your post does nothing but make you seem like a condescending, pretentious jerk, right?

Guess what. 99% of Southperry members had their bleeping vaccines. Guess what. 99% of Southperryans don't have autism.

I really hate to use this as an example but I will anyway. In my generation, and many before, our mothers smoked while pregnant with us. With the exception of one of my grandmothers, every single woman in my family smoked while pregnant. None of us had any of the complications that they've now found to be associated with smoking during pregnancy. However, decades later, the claims and the "proof" are that smoking while pregnant is harmful to the unborn fetus. So just because you say that 99% of southperry have been vaccinated but aren't autistic, doesn't mean the two can't possibly be related. It's still a matter of injecting harmful substances into the body and it's "possible" that in some, not all, could cause autism.

I never said people should be above the law. I said that thousands of people shouldn't be out of a job because a company made bad loans. I said nothing about drug company executives.

Also, I found this article pretty interesting: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

I'll finish reading later (its getting late), but I have my suspicions since it claims Autism diagsis has become more lax

They attempted to say it was genetic, but geneticists were quick to respond that genetic disorders do not suddenly increase in such astronomical proportions. They then said it was because of better diagnosis, despite the fact that the diagnosis is obvious in virtually every case and that the criteria officially accepted for diagnosis has become more restrictive not less.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...pment.aspx

And I feel sorry for Wakefield
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/01/wakef...dings.html
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2...l-journal/

It's still a matter of injecting harmful substances into the body and it's "possible" that in some, not all, could cause autism.

So let's assume something in MMR actually DOES cause autism, would it be sensical to keep spreading a -belief- that mercury-based thimerosal preservative is the cause? And why does AnonMoose keep rubbing his "fact" that the rates for chickenpox and what-not climbed up after the vaccine was shortly released, but NOT the opposite where autism actually ROSE after thimerosal was removed?

I fully support self-education to make the best decisions there are. But I really find it hard to take any anti-vaccination idea seriously given the way they desperately (and unfortunately effectively) manipulate the average people's mind. If anything, the anti-vaccinationists are stopping me from opening my eyes and look further beyond what is told that should be.

Again, it's a misconceived notion that I am against vaccinations as a whole. I'm against a certain few and I'm against giving them to my children until they are of school age. I guess it's just the luck of the draw that it's worked out in my family and that none of them have been seriously ill.....ever. (Well, except that one time when my son became severely ill shortly after being vaccinated when he was 5.) Coincidence or not, I'm going to keep going the way I have been because it seems to be working out just fine.