Mandatory Vaccinations

Yet is it reasonable to expect your partner to be one of those "smarties"? Perhaps it works for you and your genius daughters (until it decides not to work anymore, but I digress) to place their safety in other people's hands -- guys, no less -- I thought it would be reasonable to expect other skeptics to rely on nobody but themselves.

Also, abstinence is like starving one's self off out of fear for food poisoning. To expect growing teenagers not to make mistakes is both unrealistic and unproductive at best; it could also be detrimental to their later independent lives, depending on your point of view. I don't mean to butt into your parenting business, but instead of telling my children they have to be perfect from now till the moment of their last breath, I'd rather be lurking behind the scene to cushion their fall, and help them learn from that.

I suppose each parent would draw their own line here though. There are holes you should never ever fall into (heroin, for example), and it's up to the parents and their own children to figure out which would be reasonably inevitable and which anyone should absolutely steer clear of.

I already clearly stated that it's probably NOT realistic to think that people/children will choose abstinence. You're also assuming that my children are perfect and I raise them to be perfect. Quite the contrary actually. What I teach my children are my own moral values and beliefs. They are also taught that every choice in life has a consiquence whether it be good, bad or indifferent. However, they are still their choices to make. They are also taught to read and research before coming to their own conclusions. (ie: religion) Educating them, at the very least, helps them along the way. Not too many decades ago, talking sex with your children was considered a taboo subject. I'm proud to say that mine are well educated in that area and they have no problems coming to me asking questions. They've learned that it should never be an embarrassing subject to talk about with us. Children hear things at school from friends and thankfully mine will come home and ask, knowing they will get an honest answer. I fully expect my children to make mistakes and they've made plenty. Assuming otherwise is severely unintelligent.

Do you need a license to smoke? Can you smoke as you please because the nicotine is going into YOUR lungs?

Actually.......yes I can and I do. Do I follow the laws and not smoke in places it's not allowed? Of course I do. And please don't take that as an assumption that I smoke around my children because I don't. I have my own designated area for that where they aren't allowed.

Liar.

Liar is such a strong word. Maybe....misinformed would be a better way to put it. I do agree with you though.

Liar is such a strong word. Maybe....misinformed would be a better way to put it. I do agree with you though.

I agree that it is a strong provokative word, but such blatant misrepresentation of statistics deserves a strong response.

Actually.......yes I can and I do. Do I follow the laws and not smoke in places it's not allowed? Of course I do. And please don't take that as an assumption that I smoke around my children because I don't. I have my own designated area for that where they aren't allowed.

And you're missing the point that your freedom is only relevant when it's not infringing upon that of others because? Isn't it the whole idea behind that quote chain? Who cares whether you smoke, practice boxxing, watching visual novels or cutting your wrist as long as you're tightly shut in your appropriate personal space? The public is not your personal space to scream freedom, neither is it where you should be allowed to smoke, or simply be present in while carrying a portable zoo of viruses. By no means am I directing this at you, just saying because you might miss the intention this time as well.

I already clearly stated that it's probably NOT realistic to think that people/children will choose abstinence.

And I was making a point that "unrealistic" is too lenient a criticism for such practice, which I think came across to you perfectly so I will refrain from repeating.

You're also assuming that my children are perfect and I raise them to be perfect. Quite the contrary actually. What I teach my children are my own moral values and beliefs. They are also taught that every choice in life has a consiquence whether it be good, bad or indifferent. However, they are still their choices to make. They are also taught to read and research before coming to their own conclusions. (ie: religion) Educating them, at the very least, helps them along the way. Not too many decades ago, talking sex with your children was considered a taboo subject. I'm proud to say that mine are well educated in that area and they have no problems coming to me asking questions. They've learned that it should never be an embarrassing subject to talk about with us. Children hear things at school from friends and thankfully mine will come home and ask, knowing they will get an honest answer. I fully expect my children to make mistakes and they've made plenty. Assuming otherwise is severely unintelligent.

I admit ignorance to your method of upbringing, because honestly, that's not what I was discussing. I was making a point in general: That avoidance is not necessarily the better choice for method of prevention. You practice fire drills, not cut off gas, electricity and inflammable materials.

The first paragraph was dedicatedly yours, though.

And you're missing the point that your freedom is only relevant when it's not infringing upon that of others because? Isn't it the whole idea behind that quote chain? Who cares whether you smoke, practice boxxing, watching visual novels or cutting your wrist as long as you're tightly shut in your appropriate personal space? The public is not your personal space to scream freedom, neither is it where you should be allowed to smoke, or simply be present in while carrying a portable zoo of viruses. By no means am I directing this at you, just saying because you might miss the intention this time as well.

So please tell me why people are excused and pretty much never criticized when they refuse vaccinations due to religious beliefs? It seems that it's become more acceptable to oversee things due to religion. Just because I have no religion doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to be excused from such things because I don't believe in doing it. THAT irritates me!!!

So please tell me why people are excused and pretty much never criticized when they refuse vaccinations due to religious beliefs? It seems that it's become more acceptable to oversee things due to religion. Just because I have no religion doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to be excused from such things because I don't believe in doing it. THAT irritates me!!!

You have a problem with religion, I direct you out of the Speakeasy. I'm not putting my foot into that hell hole.

You have a problem with religion, I direct you out of the Speakeasy. I'm not putting my foot into that hell hole.

You're wrong. I respect everyone's choices and have no issue at all with it. I have an issue when my own personal feelings/beliefs aren't a good enough reason to opt out of something, when others do have that option.

You're wrong. I respect everyone's choices and have no issue at all with it. I have an issue when my own personal feelings/beliefs aren't a good enough reason to opt out of something, when others do have that option.

If anything, I would say that ONE reason to be excused for is much more manageable than a bajillion of them. Your personals are as meaningful to the authorities as the next person's, but when a large body share the same uniform beliefs, it makes a difference.

Compare:
Can Katherine The Example do what the pineapple she wants? Pretty sure a yes.
Can Katherine The Example do what the pineapple she wants, and Bob The Snail do what the f'uck he wants, and Sleezy The Lazy d- Okay shut up already.
Can the Buddhist monks do what the pineapple they want? Hmm, probably.

Kalovale, Religion is suppose to be a freedom in this country. You stated that "[...]freedom is only relevant when it's not infringing upon that of others[...]." So by this logic that you and so many others are going by with vaccines, these people should not be allowed to refuse vaccines for the reason of religion.

And its assinine, in my opinion, to allow religious (often only froms recognized by the state) objections, and not other forms of beliefs, especially beliefs based on logic.

Often Moose that which is logical is often illogical, and that which is illogical is often the most logical.

Heh... I had a Spock moment...

People with logical reason are easy to counter. People with religious/illogical reasons are impossible to counter and generally polemical.

People with logical reason are easy to counter. People with religious/illogical reasons are impossible to counter and generally polemical.

In addition to this, religion is by itself a whole entity to be dealt with; logicality is not. You could be asking for A, another asking for B, things get messed up and the line has to be drawn. It currently is drawn, you're just not happy with it, and that doesn't mean it's wrong.
Vaccine serves to save human lives, whether you believe it or not, and we have all learned about the bloodshed when you pet religion the wrong way.
What's more, the vaccines proved to be effective enough with this exemption, so really, aside from certain people screaming for the same toy his brother got, it's not posing any real issues, which presumably are more important a factor.

As for the idea of equality itself, even if religious people were rightfully exempt from vaccines, it still does NOT equal giving the same right to the public mass. One kid exempt from vaccines could very well be the only one in his school, as opposed to what you're asking for: For each and every vaccinated person, there's one who would choose to opt out, which is quite more headaching if you ask me.

Disclaimer: I'm only bullsh'itting my personal thoughts, like them, dispute them, or leave them. This isn't the place to talk about religion.

For instance, the Gardasil vaccine. Now that one was put in place to help prevent cancer. Since cancer isn't contagious, why would states try to make it mandatory? It hasn't been available for too many years so, in my opinion, hasn't really been tested enough to see if there will be any long lasting effects that could arise from it. I understand the concept behind it but I am not willing to give it to my teenage daughters and take a gamble either. I realize that cancer can strike at any age but typically cervical cancer strikes those who are considered elderly. That particular vaccine has also supposedly helped prevent some penile and anal cancers. So why aren't they trying to make it mandatory for boys? Just because cervical cancer is a much more common cancer than anal or penile cancer is irrelevant in my opinion.

My mom is also very against my getting the Gardasil vaccine. Honestly, aside from Gardasil and the seasonal flu vaccine, I'm completely vaccinated. Before the H1N1 vaccination was available in my area locally, I contracted swine flu. I had had the seasonal flu (again, the vaccine was slow in my area) and another flu-like virus before the swine flu that same month. So, I was already quite weak from fighting off two prior infections when I got H1N1. It was pretty rough, and as bad as people say it is, but I got over it just fine. I often get flu-like viruses during the flu season. I just had some sort of flu last month, and I was tested for the seasonal flu (They do that to children? It was oh so very uncomfortable...), and it was negative. Anyways, the lack of flu vaccines really does cause higher numbers of sick children in schools, and a sicker populace in general. Vaccines really do some good, and can only do more good if more people opt to take them.

I have a feeling that some people participating in this argument don't actually know how vaccinations work. Here are some videos for for further information; a video that will help people understand how vaccines work and one that relates to the current discussion.

 Spoiler

[video=youtube;7VH8mC0lJI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VH8mC0lJI4[/video]
[video=youtube;eMrFV2rnHlo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMrFV2rnHlo&feature=related[/video]

So in otherwords, some freedoms are good excuses for not taking the vaccine, and other freedoms are not. Someone that rejects the vaccine for religious purposes is a prefectly fine guy, but I who refuse to take a vaccine because I do not want toxic materials injected into me is a moron that is putting society at risk.
Double standards and hypocrisy amaze me.

Welcome to the real world. If you'd look at more than just one problem, perhaps you'll have to settle for "this is good enough" for one of the conflicting interests at some point in your life. Sounds familiar? Yeah, that's how things work. Instead of pushing the religious force to their rightful corners and risk having them go crazy-batpomegranate and bombing everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike, to oblivion, perhaps it's better to appease to their "special" case. You want freedom? No can do. The cons outweigh the pros by too far.
'Tat what I think anyway. If you're one asking for logical reasoning, you should very well be aware that what matters most to logic is what actually works best, sugarcoat it, slander it, who cares.

I don't believe that "freedom" is a good argument against vaccinations, particularly "freedom of religion".


Religion should not put you above the law. That's the exact opposite of what freedom of religion means: the right to be treated fairly no matter your religious beliefs. It's not fair that some religions can get an exemption from vaccines, and atheists (or whatever your personal beliefs) cannot.


I think vaccines, if legislated as mandatory to certain groups (such as children attending public schools), should be administered to every member of the group, except by scientifically based exceptions (weakened immune system, allergies, other conditions that historically make certain vaccines harmful). If you don't want the vaccine every other student is getting, drop out of the public system. There's your choice.

should

This I agree with. I just don't know why things are as they are, despite how they should be, and merely speculating. After all, politics isn't my strong point. But I figure jealousy isn't a strong basis to make a fuss about this, considering how effective the vaccines have proven to be.

So in otherwords, some freedoms are good excuses for not taking the vaccine, and other freedoms are not. Someone that rejects the vaccine for religious purposes is a prefectly fine guy, but I who refuse to take a vaccine because I do not want toxic materials injected into me is a moron that is putting society at risk.
Double standards and hypocrisy amaze me.

Who said it is okay? It's not okay, and basic statistics show us that not taking a vaccine because it's against your religion (or you don't believe in the vaccine) will result in a lot of cases where people get the virus/sickness you vaccinate against.
Here, look at this image:

Yemen, Indonesia and Sudan, countries which had been declared polio-free since before 2000, each reported hundreds of cases - probably imported from Nigeria. On May 5, 2005, news reports broke that a new case of polio was diagnosed in Java, Indonesia and the virus strain was suspected to be the same as the one that has caused outbreaks in Nigeria. New public fears over vaccine safety, which were unfounded, impeded vaccination efforts in Indonesia. In summer 2005 the WHO, UNICEF and the Indonesian government made new efforts to lay the fears to rest, recruiting celebrities and religious leaders in a publicity campaign to promote vaccination.

In the United States on September 29, 2005 the Minnesota Department of Health identified the first occurrence of vaccine derived polio virus (VDPV) transmission in the United States since OPV vaccinations were discontinued in 2000. The poliovirus type 1 infection occurred in an unvaccinated, immunocompromised infant girl aged 7 months (the index patient) in an Amish community whose members predominantly were unvaccinated for polio.

You know, nobody is going to change their beliefs on this matter. At this point, it is kind of like fighting over religion. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong? If, as most of you have proven thus far, you blindly believe what the government and these big businesses put out as the gods honest truth then you are even more foolish than I thought. Many big businesses as well as the government have lied to us to push their own hidden agenda's. As brought up by eos in an earlier post, global warming for example has been debunked by many scientists and each one was blackballed, threatened and discredited by big business and the government. Why? Money and power. Power over you me and everyone else. Al Gore for example has made millions off from global warming and stands to make billions as time goes on with this issue. You might say that this is different but what better way to control a population than with fear. That is exactly what this is. You have your views and I have mine. Thats ok. I am not getting mad at any of you for your view points. Most of you will accept what your told as being the truth when information is given by the government. I however will always question my government. The fact is that big business and the government are in bed together and they will scilence anyone who challenges the status quo.

wWhat? Do you realize how much like a conspiracy theorist you sound like right now? The very fact that you refuse to look at actual scientific evidence posted in this thread shows that you are just as blind as you claim others are. I'm not going to say that the studies are 100% accurate and prove everything, but it's not like theres absolutely no truth in them. Oh, but those studies MUST have been backed by the government and big business, and can't be trusted! The drug companies must be making fortunes off of vaccines! Oh wait, They don't.

But the government must be feeding me lies! I BET THERE ARE SECRET GPS CHIPS IN THE VACCINATIONS AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS THEIR SATELLITES HONED IN ON ME RIGHT NOW OH GOD SOMEONE HOLD ME