Kill Stealing

No, it doesn't make you a papaya if you enjoy ksing

Something is wrong with this sentence.

Something is wrong with this sentence.

Whats wrong with it? Is it my grammar?

KSing is fun because its pretty much the only player killing or pvp function we can get and if we win its fun.

I personally define Kill stealing as what it is. Stealing someone else's kill. If they attacked it, you shouldn't be killing it.

Bursting into the map, however, is just a rude intrusion. I don't ask people to stop KSing if they are not killing the things I'm attacking. It does get annoying that you have to wait for respawn, hence why most people, me included, don't like it, but I don't think it's "kill stealing".

Whats wrong with it? Is it my grammar?

KSing is fun because its pretty much the only player killing or pvp function we can get and if we win its fun.

In KSing, there's always at least one unhappy person. Meaning your 'fun' is coming out of another's misery.

KSing is horrible. I will only KS to hold my own map, maybe, MAYBE a friend's. Being a Bishop with a good ultimate doesn't mean I KS people more now, but rather less. I remember when I was a low lvl and the punks just came out of everywhere. Might makes right is a shitty philosophy, and I would say people who are serious about it are dishonest and shallow.

Why do these topics always come up lol, is it just an outlet for ks lovers to justify their actions? It really isn't hard to define ksing, the only real issues in this subject are map boundaries and boss ownership. If someone enters a map like hoodoos and starts killing, then that is unrealistic and 100% ksing since that map is NOT shareable without a party. However if someone enters a map like FoG that u had been cycling completely and they decide to claim a level you aren't killing on, then they are NOT ksing and have no technical reason to cc, only a moral reason. They should respect that you were utilizing the entire map despite its size, but don't have to cc if they don't want to. But if they start killing on every level and disregard the person who was there first, then that is a map invasion and they end up in the wrong.

And bosswise...thats an issue thats never gonna be resolved. The people who feel like ksing every boss they see are gonna support it, and the people who actually wait for the monster to spawn or cc in a mm map if someone is camped there will not support bosses being a FFA. You don't have to respect ppl who camp in the map for a boss, but you are morally WRONG to ks a boss if someone has already started attacking it when you arrive. Ksing is ksing plain and simple, nexon didn't establish "FFA boss", the community unfairly did. Whether you ks in a training map or a boss map, its against the TOS anyway to ks anything and I don't see how you can get around this fact unless you can quote me somewhere in the TOS where bosses are marked as FFA.

It's a generally accepted rule to work around flaws in Nexon's free-for-all system to create a better experience for everyone. You wouldn't like it if someone intruded on your pianus solo and proceeded to loot the drops, would you?

Actual flaws are different from what people like you perceive as flaws. Pap managing to somehow dispel you just as a bomb explodes and you get nailed without HB and/or MG? That's a flaw. You making the choice to take on a boss that is intended for parties by yourself and risking being KSed? That's not a flaw, that is you making a conscious decision and needing to live and deal with the consequences, what ever they may be. See, some of us are rational and don't need made-up rules to rely on and to enjoy ourselves.

Where did I ever say that whoever kills crow claims ownership to the map after leaving it?

Here, let's look at what I said with a bit more reading comprehension, shall we?

This is absolutely ridiculous. It may be well-mannered to leave someone alone who's slowly soloing a boss, but it is by no means outside of their rights to KS them. Bosses are a free-for-all, and they always will be. Don't try and make up rules for things that there are none; you're reminding me of the idiots in early Mardia that would kill a crow for a hime channel, and come back nine hours after claiming the channel was their's because they killed the crow.

IT DUN WERK DAT WAY

Here's another analogy for you: you're like the kids that'd play Street Fighter 2 and do nothing but poke and turtle, then cry and call "cheap!" when the person they're playing against starts throw-spamming them.


This is common sense, you don't need some ridiculous "guide" to determine what is frowned upon. If you force yourself upon someone else's map while they're training, you're obviously doing something wrong. Whereas, on the flip side, as I apparently need to keep reiterating, bosses are free-for-all, always have, always will be and it's ridiculous to whine about it.

If someone enters a map like hoodoos and starts killing, then that is unrealistic and 100% ksing since that map is NOT shareable without a party. However if someone enters a map like FoG that u had been cycling completely and they decide to claim a level you aren't killing on, then they are NOT ksing and have no technical reason to cc, only a moral reason. They should respect that you were utilizing the entire map despite its size, but don't have to cc if they don't want to. But if they start killing on every level and disregard the person who was there first, then that is a map invasion and they end up in the wrong.

Except the fact that nearly every map in the game that is trainable is best either partied, or soloed. Not shared! When you see somebody training somewhere, sure, ask them if they wouldn't mind sharing or partying with you, but if they say no, you get out. There is no question about this, and it is both common courtesy and common sense.

And bosswise...thats an issue thats never gonna be resolved. The people who feel like ksing every boss they see are gonna support it, and the people who actually wait for the monster to spawn or cc in a mm map if someone is camped there will not support bosses being a FFA. You don't have to respect ppl who camp in the map for a boss, but you are morally WRONG to ks a boss if someone has already started attacking it when you arrive. Ksing is ksing plain and simple, nexon didn't establish "FFA boss", the community unfairly did. Whether you ks in a training map or a boss map, its against the TOS anyway to ks anything and I don't see how you can get around this fact unless you can quote me somewhere in the TOS where bosses are marked as FFA.

Once again, common sense. If Nexon didn't intend for them to be a free-for-all, every boss and mini-boss would be behind closed doors such as Pap or Zak. Are they? Clearly not. Very few are, even. If you want to cry about it being "unfair", then go play a game like Diablo 2 where you can control every aspect of your game to your liking, and the mean ol' community can't hurt you.

Uh... just because a boss is FFA doesn't mean that you get to ks it, that's just stupid. Every trainable monster map is ffa but does that mean you get to just ks anyone because its a map without a "closed door behind you"? I think not. In general when someone or a group of people are at a boss like pianus or manon and actively killing it the people who come in leave them alone. In fact, out of the HUNDREDS of Pianus i've killed only -once- did someone try to ks it. I think the general attitude of the community is simlar to Cyanne's where if they're killing it you leave it alone. Anyways, to me the general definition of ksing is if someone is attacking the monster or is CLOSE to the monster as a melee class, you leave it alone. Barging into a map and killing monsters they're not attacking isn't ksing, just generally annoying.

As far as I'm concerned, if I'm in the map, and they come in and begin to kill things, they're KSing. I won't discuss bossing, because I rarely boss. The most I've done was a mushmom and a headless horseman.

I will say, though, all those times that I spent 10 minutes blasting away at an HH, only to have some 4th jobber come in and kill it in 20 seconds, AND get the drops, has made me not want to play. >__>

Actual flaws are different from what people like you perceive as flaws. Pap managing to somehow dispel you just as a bomb explodes and you get nailed without HB and/or MG? That's a flaw. You making the choice to take on a boss that is intended for parties by yourself and risking being KSed? That's not a flaw, that is you making a conscious decision and needing to live and deal with the consequences, what ever they may be. See, some of us are rational and don't need made-up rules to rely on and to enjoy ourselves.

That pap thing isn't a flaw, it's more of a challenge. Why do you think the bombs are there to begin with? The flaw I was pointing out is that anyone can come in and mess with your boss battle no matter what you do. You could have someone exploding the bombs on you at pianus. There's really nothing you can do about it, but people generally don't deliberately do that to you because it's common courtesy, which is what I meant by saying generally accepted rule. If I can kill pianus/griffey/manon by myself, why should I need a party? Just because I don't have a party doesn't mean people are more of a right to ks me. So according to your rule/courtesy-free world, I'd have to bring in 11 extra people with me every time I want to fight a spawning boss just to seal off the entrance to people who think it's free-for-all. I think it's better just to have everyone leave people alone if they're fighting a spawning boss. Also, you're saying that you shouldn't invade someone's map. Last time I checked, training maps are "free-for-all" too, and it's also common courtesy not to invade it, as with spawning bosses.

Another thing, how does the himes map thing relate to anything I'm saying?

Uh... just because a boss is FFA doesn't mean that you get to ks it, that's just stupid. Every trainable monster map is ffa but does that mean you get to just ks anyone because its a map without a "closed door behind you"? I think not.

Nice try, but there is an obvious difference between something that spawns every several hours, and something that spawns constantly. If you think that they're the same, you probably shouldn't be here.

In general when someone or a group of people are at a boss like pianus or manon and actively killing it the people who come in leave them alone.

Only if they seem to actually belong there, or it doesn't seem to be worth KSing (re: a pianus that's already half-dead).

In fact, out of the HUNDREDS of Pianus i've killed only -once- did someone try to ks it.

Being lucky to not have people interrupt =/= argumentative value.

I think the general attitude of the community is simlar to Cyanne's where if they're killing it you leave it alone.

If they're polite, sure, but it's not out of some respect for ill-defined ridiculous rules, it's out of the fact that higher-leveled players tend to have slightly more courtesy than the low-leveled cattle.

That pap thing isn't a flaw, it's more of a challenge.

Statements like this make me question as to why I'm debating this with you.

Why do you think the bombs are there to begin with?

There's a difference between added challenge and unforeseen happenstance.

The flaw I was pointing out is that anyone can come in and mess with your boss battle no matter what you do. You could have someone exploding the bombs on you at pianus.

Okay? Again, if that was unintended, it'd close behind you like Pap.

For the record, I've had that happen to me before and yet, I don't feel the need to hide behind said ill-conceived rules and cry "foul!".

There's really nothing you can do about it, but people generally don't deliberately do that to you because it's common courtesy, which is what I meant by saying generally accepted rule.

Sure, but that doesn't mean everybody has to follow it, and I certainly wouldn't think less of someone for not.

If I can kill pianus/griffey/manon by myself, why should I need a party? Just because I don't have a party doesn't mean people are more of a right to ks me.

It does if you're taking 20 minutes to kill it.

So according to your rule/courtesy-free world, I'd have to bring in 11 extra people with me every time I want to fight a spawning boss just to seal off the entrance to people who think it's free-for-all.

If you're not actually capable of defending it yourself, yes. If you can't defend the map yourself against someone who might want to KS, either take a party or wait until you're at a level where you can. It isn't a hard concept to understand.

Also, lol @ "think" it's FFA.

I think it's better just to have everyone leave people alone if they're fighting a spawning boss.

And that's your prerogative, just as it's mine to KS you if you're taking 15 minutes to kill MM.

Also, you're saying that you shouldn't invade someone's map. Last time I checked, training maps are "free-for-all" too, and it's also common courtesy not to invade it, as with spawning bosses.

There's a difference between being "common courtesy" and being "enforced with a ban via Nexon's courtesy".

Another thing, how does the himes map thing relate to anything I'm saying?

Do us all a favour and go to http://www.dictionary.com and look up the meaning of "analogy".

i agree on with you for the most part, but your statement on HHG1 is different.
On hhg1 many people can train there at once, id like to take it to a platform-side approach

ex : 3 ppl on snail floor left near portal right near portal and mid under the rope
slimes are left and right, same for mush/stump + green mush, so every has a fair amount of space to kill and have a good time

i agree on with you for the most part, but your statement on HHG1 is different.
On hhg1 many people can train there at once, id like to take it to a platform-side approach

ex : 3 ppl on snail floor left near portal right near portal and mid under the rope
slimes are left and right, same for mush/stump + green mush, so every has a fair amount of space to kill and have a good time

Yeah, that's why I said "most". There are some exceptions, but they're few and far between.

Nice try, but there is an obvious difference between something that spawns every several hours, and something that spawns constantly. If you think that they're the same, you probably shouldn't be here.





Only if they seem to actually belong there, or it doesn't seem to be worth KSing (re: a pianus that's already half-dead).





Being lucky to not have people interrupt =/= argumentative value.





If they're polite, sure, but it's not out of some respect for ill-defined ridiculous rules, it's out of the fact that higher-leveled players tend to have slightly more courtesy than the low-leveled cattle.





Statements like this make me question as to why I'm debating this with you.





There's a difference between added challenge and unforeseen happenstance.





Okay? Again, if that was unintended, it'd close behind you like Pap.

For the record, I've had that happen to me before and yet, I don't feel the need to hide behind said ill-conceived rules and cry "foul!".





Sure, but that doesn't mean everybody has to follow it, and I certainly wouldn't think less of someone for not.





It does if you're taking 20 minutes to kill it.





If you're not actually capable of defending it yourself, yes. If you can't defend the map yourself against someone who might want to KS, either take a party or wait until you're at a level where you can. It isn't a hard concept to understand.

Also, lol @ "think" it's FFA.





And that's your prerogative, just as it's mine to KS you if you're taking 15 minutes to kill MM.





There's a difference between being "common courtesy" and being "enforced with a ban via Nexon's courtesy".





Do us all a favour and go to http://www.dictionary.com and look up the meaning of "analogy".

You have to realize that Nexon is very incompetent company. They don't really care whether or not ksing rules are in place; only if it directly affects their profit. Nexon only actually enforces the ksing rule once in a blue moon; why else do you think unjustified ksing of training maps happens all the time?

By your logic of the survival of the fittest, we'd have bishops and archmages claiming newtie and skelegon maps left and right, just because a level 180 hero "can't defend the map" him/herself. Also, we'll have an army of warriors standing on top of every pianus waiting for the drops to fall.

For the pap thing, if the bomb blasts are lethal after dispel, you could easily prevent that from happening by backing out of pap's dispel range and dealing with the bombs before going back in.

I don't see what you're trying to compare with your analogy. I'm talking about a generally accepted rule of common courtesy, not a set rule that everyone must follow.

And by your blatant arrogance Dervish, I don't know I even bothered posting. How can everyone be wrong except for you >_> You confuse common courtesy with TOS rules.

You have to realize that Nexon is very incompetent company. They don't really care whether or not ksing rules are in place; only if it directly affects their profit. Nexon only actually enforces the ksing rule once in a blue moon; why else do you think unjustified ksing of training maps happens all the time?

The point is, by what Nexon's clearly shown KSing in regular monster maps is against the ToS, whereas at bosses it isn't. Otherwise, if you want to settle this easily, ask NXJoe or Prose at the next Q&A.

By your logic of the survival of the fittest, we'd have bishops and archmages claiming newtie and skelegon maps left and right, just because a level 180 hero "can't defend the map" him/herself.

Except that I only mentioned it applying to bosses, which it does.

Also, we'll have an army of warriors standing on top of every pianus waiting for the drops to fall.

Anybody's stupid enough to do this did it via hacking, and would be doing whatever they wanted anyway, regardless of whatever rules you want to try and imagine.

For the pap thing, if the bomb blasts are lethal after dispel, you could easily prevent that from happening by backing out of pap's dispel range and dealing with the bombs before going back in.

That's the thing, by the time you get Pap down to its last leg, it starts summoning constantly. If you got unlucky enough to get an AI routine for it that's spamming Dispel the entire battle, it's only a matter of time. And this is only one example, I've died from getting hit directly after being 1/1ed during the time that I should be invincible. MS is full of actual bugs and flaws that should be fixed, but have been left alone for quite long.

I don't see what you're trying to compare with your analogy. I'm talking about a generally accepted rule of common courtesy, not a set rule that everyone must follow.

And both parties are trying to push (obviously wrong) beliefs onto others. In the others' case, the belief that they retain ownership of the hime channel after they kill the crow and leave. In your case, the belief that if someone is taking half an hour to kill MM, you should leave them alone and move on.

Dervish:

KSing someone out of either map or boss is continent on you being able to outdamage them and essentially bully them. That is not nice and to the best of my knowledge people get banned for KSing so it is against the rules. There is no excuse for bullying. And sometimes, if you bully the wrong person, you never know whether a 16x magician will come out of nowhere and KS YOU.

The only difference between ksing a FFA boss and a normal monster in a training map is that a GM couldn't show up in time at the boss to do anything about it >_> You can't just make up your own rules for how bosses work when everyone else is arguing based on TOS rules.

The point is, by what Nexon's clearly shown KSing in regular monster maps is against the ToS, whereas at bosses it isn't. Otherwise, if you want to settle this easily, ask NXJoe or Prose at the next Q&A.





Except that I only mentioned it applying to bosses, which it does.





Anybody's stupid enough to do this did it via hacking, and would be doing whatever they wanted anyway, regardless of whatever rules you want to try and imagine.





That's the thing, by the time you get Pap down to its last leg, it starts summoning constantly. If you got unlucky enough to get an AI routine for it that's spamming Dispel the entire battle, it's only a matter of time. And this is only one example, I've died from getting hit directly after being 1/1ed during the time that I should be invincible. MS is full of actual bugs and flaws that should be fixed, but have been left alone for quite long.





And both parties are trying to push (obviously wrong) beliefs onto others. In the others' case, the belief that they retain ownership of the hime channel after they kill the crow and leave. In your case, the belief that if someone is taking half an hour to kill MM, you should leave them alone and move on.

Regardless of whether or not Nexon says it's a bannable offense or not, ksing bosses is wrong, and the fact that most of the community refrains from doing it shows that it's widely accepted as common courtesy. You've obviously never been in a pianus lootfest before; warriors stand on top of pianus when it's about to die so that they don't get bombed for 10k damage and are literally standing on top of the drops once the drops fall to the ground. Even if they get dispelled, they still have the hp to tank the full pianus touch damage. If all warriors disregarded common courtesy, this would be happening all over the place.

Even if someone's taking 15 minutes to kill mushmom, why would you have the rights to ks him/her? People lower leveled than you deserve some fun too. People who ks bosses are just elitist jerks in my eyes.

For the purposes of MS (kill hundred thousands of monsters per level) I'd define Kill Stealing as any action which affects the training rate of someone else in the same map as you.

Doesn't matter if they hit the targets first, if they are heading toward monsters and you kill them it's KSing, unless they respawn in time. If you are splitting a map, the first person there decides how it is split. You can't just waltz in, wait for them to be on another platform, and start attacking in the best area, if they want that part of the map, give it to them.

On "FFA" bosses where anyone can get in, politeness demands that the first person to arrive who is prepared to kill the boss gets priority, and if they don't invite you to help, gtfo. (note that being afk in the map does not count as prepared) With the way boss spawns work in MS, there is nothing more obnoxious than some 4th job pimento who abuses their power to kill the boss you might only find first once a week.