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Knight5n1p3r · (This post was last modified: 2010-05-07, 03:47 AM by Knight5n1p3r.)

RANGED ATTACK CLASS THEORETICAL DPM

This series of calculation tables compares the "Average Theoretical DPM" of the major attack classes in the game during their 4th job. I have done my very best to purge this ctable of mistakes, but is very possible (and more likely than not) that they still exist, whether it be formula errors, or simple calculation errors. If you spot anything incorrect, feel free to shout it out, or PM me, as I always do my best to be as precise as possible in anything math related. The only way for a collection of information this large to ever become error free, is with the contribution and input from many people. This ctable is a result of A LOT of hard work (this really did take me a long time) and crunching numbers, feel free to use any of my work, but out of courtesy, please cite any data you have used here to me.

Foreword

Before I begin, I would like to first make clear the actual goal of this calculation table. The goal here is to compare the average theoretical DPM (damage per minute) of each respective class while they spam their main 1 vs 1 attack skill, and any other buff that may aid them in 1 vs 1 damage. Should you decide to delve into the calculations, I will explain briefly what has been done to clear up any initial misunderstandings. Unfortunately, theoretical DPM is contingent on MANY different factors outside of the skill being used and how much weapon attack the character has. One must take into account AP build, SP build, attack speed, mastery level, stat multiplier, summons, party skills, potions-- the list is much more extensive that you may have initially imagined. Although one may initially find that the DPM calulation of a single character in a single scenario under given circumstances is relatively straightforward, the comparison of DPM from class to class is extremely difficult due to these differentiating variables. As such, the easiest way to get around this problem, and simultaneously make these calulations slighly comprehensible, is to assign each of these variables, well...a variable! This will let use create an equation that does, in fact, represent the exact theoretical DPM of a class--that is the first step. Here is a reference of variables you will see in these equations:

M1 = Primary Stat (This will be STR/DEX/INT/LUK depending on the character's primary stat)
M2 = Secondary Stat (This will be STR/DEX/INT/LUK depending on the character's secondary stat)
MA = Mastery (This is the current level of character mastery which is a percentage value; 60% = 0.6, 90% = 0.9, etc.)
WM = Weapon Multiplier (These are set values that differentiate depending on the weapon equipped)
SC = Skill Constant (The multiplier derived from the percentage damage increase due to skills and buffs)
WA = Weapon Attack (Total weapon attack)
SA = Summon Attack (Basic Attack of summon)
APM = Attacks Per Minute (Number of attacks casted per minute)
SAPM = Summon Attacks Per Minute (Number of attacks cased by summon per minute)
DPM = Damage Per Minute (The whole point of this ctable)

Although assigning variables lets us temporarily skive around the problem of potential catastrophic variability, it really does not help us any, outside of letting us calculate the DPM for one single scenario. This can be mildly helpful, but there are already a number of DPM calulators readily availible, and that really is not the aim of this calculation table. The goal is to compare the DPM for each class, and to do that, we need to establish a "baseline" for each of these variables--that is where the second section comes in. This section, I already know, will be without a doubt, the most controversial section of this ctable. It is where I plug in all the variable values into the DPM equations; namely AP build, Weapon Attack, and Attack Speed. Each class will be using a regular AP builds of each character (regular, meaning 'high-dex, high-str, etc.). Equipment poses a slightly more complicated problem. Weapon attack has differing amounts of value for each class, which is contingent on the weapon multiplier, base damage formula, AP and a few other factors. This is a phenomena I have come to refer to as "weapon attack differentiation". Originally, I opted to use only average weapons and no other equips, but this gave an unfair advantage to jobs that utilize weapon attack less efficiently, and vice versa. This is a problem that all DPM calculation tables face, so as an instituted solution, I have decided that the most efficient way to combat this issue is to take a minimum attack value (clean), and a maximum attack value (perfect 10% scrolled weapon, and realistically perfect equips) and average the resulting DPM. This technique also solves the problem of stars and bullets, as I can simply apply them in the same fashion (subis -> furys; bullets -> eternals). Also, we have the advantage of being able to see the comparisons between "godly equipped" characters and terribly equipped characters, and make relative observations. In essence, these calculations are modeled to quantify as many aspects as possible, while eliminating as many differentiating variables as possible. Keep this in mind if you begin to wonder how I ended up choosing the values that I did. These were the build types that each class was originally engineered with, so it is only natural that is the build used to appropriately reverse engineer them. However, should you disagree with the particular values that I use, the absolute beauty is that the equations formed in the first section still stand.

Calculations

You can open the spoiler, or view the googledocs files by clicking the links.

Bow Master

Spoiler

Corsair

Spoiler

Marksman

Spoiler

Night Lord

Spoiler

Final Analysis

Final DPM Results

Bow Masters are arguably the most self-sufficient and versatile class, I personally think of them as the "jack of all trades". Alone, they have a decent solo 1 vs. 1 DPM that blows away Night Lords not buffed with SE, and rivals even Corsairs massive damage. Since they are the class that buffs SE, they dont need to rely on a party to hit big numbers, and are welcomed into boss runs with open arms. However, they do have a terribly low amount of HP, which does prevent them from bossing effectively at early 4th job levels. Another turn off many players find in Bow Masters is that they take a very long time to reach their damage 'plateau'. This is due to the fact that they need to max Sharp Eyes, Hurricane, Bow Expert and Concentrate (which itself requires a player to get to level 160) in order for them to really start whacking out big numbers. In reality, most Bow Masters like to put some points in Phoenix as well as Maple Warrior, which means that they take even longer to reach their damage peak. Nevertheless, if you are patient enough to get up to the 15x levels, Bow Masters are adept at both bossing and training.

Corsairs have, without a doubt the highest solo 1 vs. 1 output damage of all the ranged classes with their high hitting Battleship Cannon. This is assuming however, that they are able to stay in their ship; if it breaks, their numbers drop significantly. As a cost of having such a high potential damage, they have no critical hit rate, and thus, benefit meekly from SE when bossing. Because of this, you can call Corsairs more of a 'soloing' class than a 'party' class from both a training and bossing standpoint. Corsairs have no useful party buffs, which often makes them unwanted when training-- even with their high DPM. When Onyx Apples are factored in, they get a significant damage boost, as weapon attack value for Corsairs is slightly higher than most classes. When Corsairs get Bullseye, their total DPM output (not including summons) is raise by 20%, a very significant boost. However, Bullseye is ONLY useful for bossing, it is essentially useless for normal training. As a result, most players tend to hold off on maxing Bullseye until after putting some points in torpedo and other 'training-friendly' skills. To sum it all up, Corsairs have they have the perfect ability to go on party boss runs, but they are most suited for solo training/bossing due the fact that they have no party buffs to bring to the table, and their heavy reliance of their transformed state.

Marksmen are very interesting in the way they operate. In their 4th job, instead of getting a new skill to replace Strafe, they instead couple their 199,999 damage hitting Snipe with Strafe. This skill combo turns out to have interesting results. Other than the fact that having two skills makes DPM calculation horribly complicated (as if it weren't already enough), apart from an amazing damage boost, Snipe has interesting affects on a Marksman's DPM. First off Onyx apples give Marksmen little benefit. Typically, Apples nearly double a classes total DPM; however, Snipe is not at all dependent on weapon attack, meaning that Apples only give boost to their Strafe. Consequently, their gain when using Apples is much smaller. Some may find this as an advantage, others may see otherwise. Also, compared to a Bow Master's Hurricane, Strafe does little justice to benefit from Sharp Eyes; however, once again, because of Snipe, this drawback really isnt a drawback at all. As a result, Marksmen actually out damage Bow Masters, until later levels, where the usefulness of Snipe begins to become overshadowed by Strafe. Conversely however, when a Bow Master uses an apple, they simply blow away Marksmen.

Night Lords have very low solo 1 vs. 1 damage output. To make up for it, they have an extremely high inherent critical hit rate, which means that when they are buffed with SE, their damage skyrockets. They are an amazing class for bossing not only because the benefit so much from SE, but also because of their non attacking skills. In reality, the only 4th job skill Night Lords use to boss is Triple Throw, which means they can be highly effective bossers as early as level 13x. Also, when Onyx Apples are factored in, Night Lords jump up to having a DPM that nearly rivals Corsairs in their ship. Another plus for Night Lords is that they don't have to worry about any transformation skill like Corsairs or Buccaneers; conversely however, they do have extremely low HP. Another added plus for Night Lords is that they get 15 minute onyx apples with Alchemist-- a real profit saver over the long run. Of course, they also get Flash Jump (although it isnt all that helpful in boss runs other than for changing sides) and they have the party skill Haste. If you make a Night Lord, prepare to spend much of your maple career bossing/partying since they are pretty much built to specialize in bossing.

So essentially, the classes are balanced....ZOMGwtp! *cries

Credits

- http://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Stats ; where I referenced my damage formulas.
- http://www.sleepywood.net/forum/ ; where I made the beta of this table. They have an extremely insightful community.
- http://www.basilmarket.com/ ; for their easy to access guides and skill listings.
- http://ayumilovemaple.wordpress.com/2009...reference/ ; attack speed reference.
- http://docs.google.com/ ; hosting all my documents

Dusk · 2010-01-25, 08:25 AM

People equip things besides weapons, you know.

Mazz · 2010-01-25, 04:08 PM

we already knew this o_o and dpm/dp whatever charts are still incredibly inaccurate - you will NEVER find a bowmaster/mm/nl/corsair with equal funding, and if you did the lesser played classes would shine even more. cheaper weapons/scrolls = higher atk = higher damage. its easy to make a marksman that does more dpm than a bowmaster just because bow scrolls are so expensive.

Stereo · 2010-01-25, 04:39 PM

Mazz Wrote:its easy to make a marksman that does more dpm than a bowmaster just because bow scrolls are so expensive.

Not saying this chart is accurate, but what it shows is that marksman are less affected by gear than bowmasters. (due to snipe's fixed damage)

So spending some amount on Marksman upgrades is nice, but you don't increase as much as the same upgrades for a Bowmaster.

In the end, there is a good reason some classes cost more than others - they benefit more from the extra stats.

KaidaTan · 2010-01-25, 05:08 PM

I'd like to know what kind of crack you're on that NLs with SE are weaker than MMs. Where can I get it?

No offense to all your hard work and such, but Dusk already has a perfectly fine DPS calculator (check the stickies) for all classes and with editable gear/buffs/defense. All that, and DPS instead of DPM. I don't know how DPM ever became a trend (I speculate because people like big numbers), but its horrible to look at and is much harder to compare than DPS.

JoeTang · 2010-01-25, 08:30 PM

KaidaTan Wrote:I'd like to know what kind of crack you're on that NLs with SE are weaker than MMs. Where can I get it?

No offense to all your hard work and such, but Dusk already has a perfectly fine DPS calculator (check the stickies) for all classes and with editable gear/buffs/defense. All that, and DPS instead of DPM. I don't know how DPM ever became a trend (I speculate because people like big numbers), but its horrible to look at and is much harder to compare than DPS.

DPM used to be the trend because attacks used to be measured by attacks per minute instead of per second.

Pauru · 2010-01-26, 12:11 AM

Stereo Wrote:Not saying this chart is accurate, but what it shows is that marksman are less affected by gear than bowmasters. (due to snipe's fixed damage)

So spending some amount on Marksman upgrades is nice, but you don't increase as much as the same upgrades for a Bowmaster.

In the end, there is a good reason some classes cost more than others - they benefit more from the extra stats.

There is a point where your average strafe damage becomes greater than that of Snipe (on apple anyway). At that point the MM's expected damage output starts to increase at a bit faster rate relative to upgrades.

Your average range would have to be 21.5k for that to happen though. >_>

That said, these calculations need a bit of work. Also, if you're gonna put BMs and NLs under ideal conditions, why not provide a calculation that has Sairs and MMs with both SE and SI while appling?

Knight5n1p3r · (This post was last modified: 2010-01-26, 05:16 AM by Knight5n1p3r.)

Mazz Wrote:we already knew this o_o and dpm/dp whatever charts are still incredibly inaccurate - you will NEVER find a bowmaster/mm/nl/corsair with equal funding, and if you did the lesser played classes would shine even more. cheaper weapons/scrolls = higher atk = higher damage. its easy to make a marksman that does more dpm than a bowmaster just because bow scrolls are so expensive.

Like I said in the foreword and many times throughout its creation, this thread is NOT meant to superimpose as a realistic character, the equips chosen should give that away immediately. We already have a number of excellent damage calculators available to use strictly for the puropose of finding a real time DPM. The goal of this thread is slightly different, it is to actively compare the DPM of each class. Granted yes, there are some variables that are simply impossible to completely account for, and along those lines there will always be disagreement; however, I have done my very best to account for, in some way or another, as many of these variables as possible. In effect, it is MORE important, not to just see the resulting values, but also to understand their implications as well.

Only example quality is of course, the one you mentioned. Although Bow Masters may have a higher end DPM, one must also take into account that BM weaponry and equips is significantly more expensive than MMs, making MMs a somewhat "better" choice to some players. In reality, taking into budget is next to impossible, considering that the cost of items is determined by the number of players in the game in that particular job as well as a host of other factors. As I mentioned before, the goal of this table was based more on finding "theoretical DPM", accounting for budget will do that goal no justice.

Stereo Wrote:Not saying this chart is accurate, but what it shows is that marksman are less affected by gear than bowmasters. (due to snipe's fixed damage)

So spending some amount on Marksman upgrades is nice, but you don't increase as much as the same upgrades for a Bowmaster.

In the end, there is a good reason some classes cost more than others - they benefit more from the extra stats.

Exactly.

KaidaTan Wrote:I'd like to know what kind of crack you're on that NLs with SE are weaker than MMs. Where can I get it?

No offense to all your hard work and such, but Dusk already has a perfectly fine DPS calculator (check the stickies) for all classes and with editable gear/buffs/defense. All that, and DPS instead of DPM. I don't know how DPM ever became a trend (I speculate because people like big numbers), but its horrible to look at and is much harder to compare than DPS.

I find DPM superior to DPS for two reasons. First being that DPS is commonly confused in between "Damage per second" and "Damage per strike" both of which are two vastly different things. As such, I don't know which of the two you are referring to; I am going to assume Damage per Second, since Damage per strike is used normally only for Knock Back calculation and training scenarios. Second, I find DPM to be superior as it gives a better average of damage over a certain amount of time. As an example, Summons cast once every 5 seconds, Snipe has a cool down of 5 seconds, etc. etc. These fluctuations, though still possible to find using seconds as base unit, are better described over a wider range using the minute perspective. If you don't understand what I mean, a good analogy to a real life scenario is how cars are measured in inches; using feet may give a smaller number more easily grasped by the novice, but for better understanding, measurement in inches is always superior for precision, especially for measuring curves, height etc. etc.

Dusk's Calculator is a great piece of work, and accounts for ALL classes (even the non attack classes), mine only compares the ranged attack classes. However, as I said before, this thread has a completely different goal. The limitation of a calculator is that it can only let us calculate the DPM/DPS for one class in one single scenario. This thread is meant to dynamically compare the DPM of the classes as they progress through the levels (all of this is explained in the Foreword if you did not read it). Calculators only utilize the DPM/DPS formulas, the real bulk of the work on this thread it really comes from the plugging in of the variables. Don't let the spoilers fool you-- open them all up and you will know what I'm talking about.

As response for your first statement, my simple defense is to find where my math is wrong, then tell me I'm on crack. I am open to any correction, but trying to invalidate my math using a flaming statement derived from a subjective observation generally leads to no avail. To directly answer you question, contrary to popular belief, NLs, even with SE still don't have an exceptionally high DPM, only with Apples do NLs really shine. An NL with SE is still weaker than a BM, which is already known fact, as BMs have far more weapon attack as well as support skills that together, far outweigh the ability of TT. MMs unappled have a higher DPM than BMs in early and mid 4th job, so it really is to be expected that MMs DPM is higher than NLs + SE. Grated there are a number of other variables that can come into play, but I really fail to see how this comes as such a surprise to you.

Pauru Wrote:There is a point where your average strafe damage becomes greater than that of Snipe (on apple anyway). At that point the MM's expected damage output starts to increase at a bit faster rate relative to upgrades.

Your average range would have to be 21.5k for that to happen though. >_>

That said, these calculations need a bit of work. Also, if you're gonna put BMs and NLs under ideal conditions, why not provide a calculation that has Sairs and MMs with both SE and SI while appling?

At lvl 150 Strafe gives a slightly larger yield towards DPM than Snipe, just as you said, as the levels progress Strafe becomes more and more effective. However, even at level 200, Snipe provides for roughly 41.6% of an average equipped MMs DPM (under theoretical conditions of course). That being said, that's 41% of their DPM that goes unaffected by equips--a rather large portion to say the least.

As for SI, the real reason I have not included it is simply because I'm lazy. Its actually a staggering number of calculations I must burn through to complete just one section of this thread. As it turns out, SI is not all very much helpful to MMs or Corsairs, once again because Snipe goes unaffected by SI (cooldown time does not decrease), and Corsairs are only 1 speed category below the speed cap. I will of course, get around to it eventually.

Kitteh · 2010-01-26, 02:00 AM

I think the MM comment was related to the fact that GMS's Snipe cooldown is, on average, 7 seconds, not 5.

Dusk · 2010-01-26, 09:52 AM

Quote:First being that DPS is commonly confused in between "Damage per second" and "Damage per strike" both of which are two vastly different things.

By who?

Quote:NLs, even with SE still don't have an exceptionally high DPM, only with Apples do NLs really shine

So I guess it's okay to ignore the 50+ weapon attack that is provided by gloves, shoes, capes, pendants, and etc. because Apples make such a big difference...

Bribery · 2010-01-26, 11:11 AM

You really should include things like MoN, Facestompers, PAC, and Gloves, as Dusk said. You're ignoring about 30 atk just considering average/decently scrolled equips. NLs especially will benefit from this and Marksmen would fall behind a bit more.

Stereo · (This post was last modified: 2010-01-26, 01:08 PM by Stereo.)

Even including, oh, Warrior elixirs? Would balance things out quite a bit.

NLs (perfect) = 99 (claw) + 30 (stars) attack
BMs (perfect) = 150 (bow) + 10 (mastery) + 17.333 (that atk skill thingy)

->
99 + 30 + 12
150 + 10 + 21.333

NLs go from 72.7% of a BM's w.atk to 77.8% of w.atk. Meaning instead of 5.1 vs. 5.2 mil dpm at 180, it's 5.57 vs. 5.32 mil dpm, in favour of the NL.

Of course, you successfully showed that without attack pots, attack gloves, attack capes/shoes, attack pendants, BMs are better. But how common is the situation where someone has a 150 atk bow (or 99 atk claw) and none of those?

Say you add the rest -
MoN - 10 atk
Glove - 15 atk
Cape - 5 atk
Shoes - 2 atk
Blessing of Spirit - 12 atk

NL - 99 + 30 + 12 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2 + 12 = 185
BM - 150 + 10 + 21.333 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2+ 12 = 225.333

Now the NL has 82% of the BM's attack, still without using onyx apples. With Apples it's over 90%.

I'll also note that my Paladin has roughly 52/56 of those extra attack I just added (differently set on my NL, comes out to 54/56), so it's not at all unreasonable to expect this kind of gear on a 4th job character.

KaidaTan · 2010-01-26, 03:57 PM

Knight5n1p3r Wrote:As response for your first statement, my simple defense is to find where my math is wrong, then tell me I'm on crack. I am open to any correction, but trying to invalidate my math using a flaming statement derived from a subjective observation generally leads to no avail. To directly answer you question, contrary to popular belief, NLs, even with SE still don't have an exceptionally high DPM, only with Apples do NLs really shine. An NL with SE is still weaker than a BM, which is already known fact, as BMs have far more weapon attack as well as support skills that together, far outweigh the ability of TT. MMs unappled have a higher DPM than BMs in early and mid 4th job, so it really is to be expected that MMs DPM is higher than NLs + SE. Grated there are a number of other variables that can come into play, but I really fail to see how this comes as such a surprise to you.

The math itself isn't wrong, but as the three posters above me mentioned, you missed some very important things which make your numbers incredibly unrealistic. I have personally beaten similarly leveled Night Lords in damage with my Bowmaster, so I'm well aware that they're nothing special until they're tricked out. But really, you should have rechecked your setup if Marksmen came out over NightLords, because everyone here and ever calculator disagrees. Aside from the fact that good gear helps Marksmen less than most classes and helps Nightlords more than most classes, there's still Snipe and its horrible cooldown. Every bit of math ever done shows that Marksmen would be pretty crazy if they actually could shoot it every 4 or 5 seconds, but realistically it's something like 7 or 8. That's why I try my best to emulate realism by putting a cooldown modifier in both my Corsair calc and the Marksman calc I made for Carlos. I don't know what situations these numbers could be used for, but they seem to be pretty far from any real situation I've run into.

Knight5n1p3r Wrote:Damage per Strike

I have never heard this interpretation. I don't think your car analogy applies since neither of us are doing any estimation or bad rounding like the people who use feet. I guess it really comes down to preference. I find the large numbers ugly and harder to compare and use for calculations, and I've been using DPS for such a long time that DPM is pretty foreign to me. They're still essentially the same numbers, one is just divided by 60.

Heliocentric · 2010-01-26, 06:38 PM

Can someone do calculations with the new Rapid Fire (200% damage) and compare it with Triple Throw w/o SE and Hurricane w/ SE and find out the damage %/minute of each? I'm curious of these standings with the characters soloing.

Tamillan · 2010-01-26, 07:33 PM

nice work, but equips???? Well yeah all classes melee and ranged are all well balanced I think, but shadowers, buccs, and AM still need a boost. Well AM its ok, but no hs right =(. All this numbers makes this a little confusing, try making a chart or smth.

KaidaTan · 2010-01-26, 08:31 PM

Heliocentric Wrote:Can someone do calculations with the new Rapid Fire (200% damage) and compare it with Triple Throw w/o SE and Hurricane w/ SE and find out the damage %/minute of each? I'm curious of these standings with the characters soloing.

Spoiler

Here you go, this is my edited version of Dusk's calculator. Look at the highlighted cells for DPS. Rapid Fire (2) is the 200% damage Rapid Fire. As you can see, I used some pretty good gear at the bottom, but that's about the gear that the people I'm around have. I could have given you %DPS, but that's worthless information for cross-class comparison, especially when all three of their damage ranges are so different.

Credit for the calculator still goes to Dusk, I only did some minor additions and number-plugging.

Tamillan · (This post was last modified: 2010-01-26, 08:59 PM by Tamillan.)

Huh...RF is just too strong now.....

Heliocentric · 2010-01-26, 09:01 PM

Thanks for that. Looks like Rapid Fire can't be laughed at anymore after the updates.

Stereo · 2010-01-26, 09:02 PM

Tamillan Wrote:Huh...RF is just too strong now.....

170% (old) is the Rapid Fire (1) which is 106k dps, less than TT, the new 125k dps is with 200%.

Knight5n1p3r · (This post was last modified: 2010-01-27, 04:33 AM by Knight5n1p3r.)

KaidaTan Wrote:The math itself isn't wrong, but as the three posters above me mentioned, you missed some very important things which make your numbers incredibly unrealistic. I have personally beaten similarly leveled Night Lords in damage with my Bowmaster, so I'm well aware that they're nothing special until they're tricked out. But really, you should have rechecked your setup if Marksmen came out over NightLords, because everyone here and ever calculator disagrees. Aside from the fact that good gear helps Marksmen less than most classes and helps Nightlords more than most classes, there's still Snipe and its horrible cooldown. Every bit of math ever done shows that Marksmen would be pretty crazy if they actually could shoot it every 4 or 5 seconds, but realistically it's something like 7 or 8. That's why I try my best to emulate realism by putting a cooldown modifier in both my Corsair calc and the Marksman calc I made for Carlos. I don't know what situations these numbers could be used for, but they seem to be pretty far from any real situation I've run into.

I understand where you're coming from. Marksmen actually get the best deal in this table for two reasons. First being that Strafe is spammed. Realistically, with a monster attacking you and such, you are forced to pause between attacks. Marksmen have a significantly long pick up time, meaning that their strafe is actually far inferior when it's not being spammed. Secondly, I did use the 5 second Snipe cooldown, which of course is unrealistic due to client and server lag, in realism, it's usually around 6-7 seconds. Both of these conditions cannot be accounted for since pickup time is disregarded in DPM, and Snipe cooldown depends on the speed of the internet connection and the current server lag. So granted yes, compared to other classes, Marksmen do shine a bit brighter in this table compared to other classes, but from a theoretical standpoint it is only appropriate. In chemistry, calculation with ideal gases is done because of their precision and simplicity, and in physics we disregard air resistance because its a negligible complication. However, in both cases, the result is found with the understanding that it will not be perfectly realistic. In realism, from what I have seen and heard, unappled, an MMs DPM is generally greater than a BMs in early 4th job-- my results match up with this statement, though there will always be a level of subjectivity that can be argued to each situation.

Heliocentric Wrote:Can someone do calculations with the new Rapid Fire (200% damage) and compare it with Triple Throw w/o SE and Hurricane w/ SE and find out the damage %/minute of each? I'm curious of these standings with the characters soloing.

Just a quickie, all are level 200. For equips, I know there is controversy over the weapon attack values I have implemented, but for ease of reusing calculations already in the thread, I'll use a perfect 10% weapon (Equivalent of "High DPM" in thread). This comes with the understanding that Night Lords will have the biggest boost in this scenario, since they have the largest gain from weapon attack:

Spoiler

Stereo Wrote:Even including, oh, Warrior elixirs? Would balance things out quite a bit.

NLs (perfect) = 99 (claw) + 30 (stars) attack
BMs (perfect) = 150 (bow) + 10 (mastery) + 17.333 (that atk skill thingy)

->
99 + 30 + 12
150 + 10 + 21.333

NLs go from 72.7% of a BM's w.atk to 77.8% of w.atk. Meaning instead of 5.1 vs. 5.2 mil dpm at 180, it's 5.57 vs. 5.32 mil dpm, in favour of the NL.

Of course, you successfully showed that without attack pots, attack gloves, attack capes/shoes, attack pendants, BMs are better. But how common is the situation where someone has a 150 atk bow (or 99 atk claw) and none of those?

Say you add the rest -
MoN - 10 atk
Glove - 15 atk
Cape - 5 atk
Shoes - 2 atk
Blessing of Spirit - 12 atk

NL - 99 + 30 + 12 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2 + 12 = 185
BM - 150 + 10 + 21.333 + 10 + 15 + 5 + 2+ 12 = 225.333

Now the NL has 82% of the BM's attack, still without using onyx apples. With Apples it's over 90%.

I'll also note that my Paladin has roughly 52/56 of those extra attack I just added (differently set on my NL, comes out to 54/56), so it's not at all unreasonable to expect this kind of gear on a 4th job character.

I am considering revising using higher weapon attack values. The problem is however, this is going to take a really long time, and if I really do decide to worry strictly about the equip builds, I will also need to take into account AP builds as well. People are getting me on the weapon attack values I used, but realistically, AP build also proposes an equal problem. I am using "high-stat" builds, where are essentially the equivalent of using an average weapon, but people are so blinded by the weapon attack that they fail to see that the SP build makes a significant difference as well. Z-helms are not important because 15 dex = 3 weapon attack, they are important because 15/15/15/15 provides a 30 stat boost, which will propel you to equipping your next level weapon, which can potentially be worth more than the stat damage boost it gives. I am currently trying to devise a method of finding a "baseline" set of equips that can be agreed on by all (which is really impossible, but one can try). However as I said before, this thread's purpose is not meant to model a realistic scenario--we have DPM/DPS calculators for that. It is meant to compare the classes inherent DPM, and for the most part, my current builds serve that purpose quite well.

Dusk Wrote:By who?

So I guess it's okay to ignore the 50+ weapon attack that is provided by gloves, shoes, capes, pendants, and etc. because Apples make such a big difference...

Damage per strike, or damage per hit is used commonly to measure the KB ability of a certain skill, and also for training purposes to see whether one can 1 hit or 2 hit monsters, etc. etc. I commonly mistake the two when people ask "what is the average DPS of ____?"

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic by the second part, I am assuming you are. Regardless of your intentions, one will actually find that what you say is true. Apples provide such a large increase in weapon attack that they essentially dwarf the weapon attack gained from scrolling ad equips-- they actually represent a "godly equipped" form of a character. If you want, you can clip on an additional 50 weapon attack to appled form of all the classes (using perfect weapons), and you will find that the DPM arrangement of characters stays more or less the same (I know because I actually did try it out).

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