So why bother with alternate weapons?

No what I meant was that people made str dits back when they were inferior, the differnece between axe/sword is pretty insignificant to be honest. I don't really see the problem lol

Is the axe DPS vs sword dps really that much off? For example, could you give me any reason back in 2005-2007 to even bother making a strength dit? They were inferior in every way besides have two extra weapon attack. People choose different things for different reasons.

STR dit was my second character in beta. There were a few reasons and I've already mentioned some of them. The first reason is that there was no cash shop in beta so style points made a difference back then. The second reason is that weapons after 30 were difficult to come by (scrolls too). The crafters in the various towns around Victoria were somewhat helpful in that (we still had to collect all the ores and materials), but not all weapons could be built. STR dits also had a reliable weapon path.

Cass > Bazlud > Golden River

versus

Gephart (or fan) > Shinkita (weapon speed bugged to be slower) > Kandine

All of the STR daggers were more reliable and acquired earlier than the DEX equivalent. The level 70 weapons only dropped from Jr. Balrog and therefore I think I only ever saw one each Kandine and River. The average player could expect to make it to mid 50s or 60 before giving up (I made it to 57, and had a +5 Bazlud). Again, weapon paths were determined by what dropped, or what was available in the market. Beta really was a different game than the current maple, but much of the logic of the game has held since then: Players tend to choose the path of least resistance. As the game has changed, as items have become more available, and as stat whoring has reigned, the various alternates have fallen out of favor.

There is a final technical reason, which is that everyone in beta thought that Nexon had a plan and that they would be on everyone's side instead of playing favorites, and we thought that an impending 3rd job (and then after that was released, an impending 4th job) would make everything OK. However, looking back, various class imbalances were in full force, especially assassins and clerics. Hunters and Xbowmen were doomed to be the worst class in the game even then. Interestingly, player psychology has not significantly changed since that time. Nexon is mildly successful with their carrot-stick gaming paradigm.

He was asking about 05-07 o.o after BB the VIP 1h axe will be a good weapon for Heroes.

Sweet! So we're finally getting to the light at the end of the tunnel. Any good news for blunt weapons?

That lasted a fair amount of time into GMS as well, with the level 80+ weapons dropping sporadically until we got Zakum (dropping all level 90 weapons). Specifically the Devil's Sunrise, when BW White Knights were stuck with the Gigantic Sledge (level 70 and slow). Didn't get an alternative until the release of Aquarium and Gobies dropping the Morningstar.

Of course now with Horntail, VPQ and item maker, high level weapons are all about equally available. But the imbalances started a long time ago.

Shinkita (weapon speed bugged to be slower)

It's not bugged, it was designed that way.

This just gives people more alternatives, rather than "pineapple this monster dropped a good potential axe but i'm a sword hero fffffffff"

STR dit was my second character in beta. There were a few reasons and I've already mentioned some of them. The first reason is that there was no cash shop in beta so style points made a difference back then. The second reason is that weapons after 30 were difficult to come by (scrolls too). The crafters in the various towns around Victoria were somewhat helpful in that (we still had to collect all the ores and materials), but not all weapons could be built. STR dits also had a reliable weapon path.

Cass > Bazlud > Golden River

versus

Gephart (or fan) > Shinkita (weapon speed bugged to be slower) > Kandine

All of the STR daggers were more reliable and acquired earlier than the DEX equivalent. The level 70 weapons only dropped from Jr. Balrog and therefore I think I only ever saw one each Kandine and River. The average player could expect to make it to mid 50s or 60 before giving up (I made it to 57, and had a +5 Bazlud). Again, weapon paths were determined by what dropped, or what was available in the market. Beta really was a different game than the current maple, but much of the logic of the game has held since then: Players tend to choose the path of least resistance. As the game has changed, as items have become more available, and as stat whoring has reigned, the various alternates have fallen out of favor.

Strength bandit was my first class, typically everyone lived in the fallacy that you could substitute a str scrolled item instead of a luk one and save money. Though such argument has no presence here as beta barely had any impact on the strength dit population. Especially after the first anniversary. Many players will over look the slight DPS gap to use an axe instead of a sword. Just like many players chose the cursayer over the varkit.

It's not bugged, it was designed that way.

Where design implies intention, it's funny you mention it in a game that is seemingly without. I'm imagining the situation in the office where the coder grabs a donut and accidentally types a 5 instead of a 4. There's your shinkita speed. I'd like to believe that most things in the game were well designed and planned out ahead of time, but I realized late into playing that the chimps at Nexon have no frontal lobes. I don't know how anyone could subscribe to that argument. Bugged is a better way to put it. Outright mistake is an even better way to put it. Just like Nexon "designed" axes and blunt weapons to be so horrible for 6 years. Clearly they had us all fooled.

Not to undo the contents of this thread, but one should ask why such a large patch is necessary in a game designed so well in the first place. Should I predict catastrophe in the coming days?

Strength bandit was my first class, typically everyone lived in the fallacy that you could substitute a str scrolled item instead of a luk one and save money. Though such argument has no presence here as beta barely had any impact on the strength dit population. Especially after the first anniversary. Many players will over look the slight DPS gap to use an axe instead of a sword. Just like many players chose the cursayer over the varkit.

Players chose cursayer over varkit? When was this? I have seen maybe two cursayers, and I'm not sure that 2 atk was the reason that they were used, but your save money argument seems plausible. I have also seen someone go from dex dit to str when given the option to use a godly scrolled (as in hacked) dragon knife.

They might overlook a slight dps gap temporarily, yes. I'll probably be switching to the 109 atk duck tube that's been sitting in my inventory for the last 2 years just so I can finish my shield quest. I may even consider forging a blunt weapon, seeing as I'm so poor that I beg for etc items from monsters. All the while I will be massaging my lower region to a picture of a nicely scrolled sword. Oh, you will hear the quacking from miles away (from the tube anyway).

There are still many things about Maplestory I'd love to change. Even after Big Bang, speeds 4 and 5 still register as "Fast" when there is clearly a difference in attack speed.

As far as the choice between swords and axes - although this isn't fixed per say after Big Bang, the gap between swords and axes have closed considerably. Before, there were differences between swings and stabs. Now there is no difference. Before, Axes had lower mastery, now they have the same mastery as swords. Also before, Axes required completely different skill trees for Crusaders which locks you into using an inferior weapon type. Now they don't. Pretty much the only differences now between axes and swords are weapon speed and cost - with axes being considerably cheaper in base cost and scrolling costs. There are some axes which can compete with sword on attack speed so, considering the cheaper cost, it's much more worth it to use an axe over a sword.

There are other problems that plague axes though. Since so few users are axe users, shop owners don't want to take up a slot in their store for an axe no one will buy when they can put a sword in there that people will buy. So there are supply issues for axes as well.

There are still many things about Maplestory I'd love to change. Even after Big Bang, speeds 4 and 5 still register as "Fast" when there is clearly a difference in attack speed.

As far as the choice between swords and axes - although this isn't fixed per say after Big Bang, the gap between swords and axes have closed considerably. Before, there were differences between swings and stabs. Now there is no difference. Before, Axes had lower mastery, now they have the same mastery as swords. Also before, Axes required completely different skill trees for Crusaders which locks you into using an inferior weapon type. Now they don't. Pretty much the only differences now between axes and swords are weapon speed and cost - with axes being considerably cheaper in base cost and scrolling costs. There are some axes which can compete with sword on attack speed so, considering the cheaper cost, it's much more worth it to use an axe over a sword.

There are other problems that plague axes though. Since so few users are axe users, shop owners don't want to take up a slot in their store for an axe no one will buy when they can put a sword in there that people will buy. So there are supply issues for axes as well.

I think you covered everything but range issues (are there any? I think I remember some ranges being shorter for alts) and universality of swords, but those are basically the same conclusions I'm reaching now. I don't like it that there's no big comeback for alts, but I'll take what I can get for now.

All of the 1H axes use the range "SwordOL". This is the long version of "SwordOS". With swords, it's a hit or miss whether it's SwordOS or SwordOL.

To give you an idea of the differences between them, I show you a slash:

SwordOS
SwordOL

Stab:

SwordOS
SwordOL

Swing:

SwordOS
SwordOL

So although the difference is nice to know, so many of the higher level skills have their own hitboxes (Brandish, Brave Slash, Blast, Heaven's Hammer, Charge Blow, ACB) that the difference between weapon ranges becomes a non-issue. It's all weapon speed, baby.

Players chose cursayer over varkit? When was this? I have seen maybe two cursayers, and I'm not sure that 2 atk was the reason that they were used, but your save money argument seems plausible. I have also seen someone go from dex dit to str when given the option to use a godly scrolled (as in hacked) dragon knife.

Back in those times the whole reason of making a str dit was for the looks/availability of the Angelic betrayal. It was dropped at MDT's and cursayer was the best looking weapon (arguable against the DT). However a clean cursayer was half the price of something like a blood dagger. The point of my objection was players, although unfortunately not the majority, don't make DPS their highest priority, in fact look at the bigger scale of things such as efficiency. To an axe vs a sword the DPS will have a negligible difference. Nothing that would say, result in a bf war auto win each time. Just like there was an insignificant difference between a str/luk dit.

So although the difference is nice to know, so many of the higher level skills have their own hitboxes (Brandish, Brave Slash, Blast, Heaven's Hammer, Charge Blow, ACB)

Are they changing Charge Blow/ACB? Currently the first target needs to be in normal hit range, the 200px range applies in distance from that 1st mob when picking additional targets.

And are 1h BWs SwordOS? I've always found their swing range atrocious.

@CB/ACB:

It's AoE now with range 180%.

@1H BW

No, they use their own range class "mace"

	mace	SwordOS	SwordOL
Swing	77%	85%	88%
Stab	82%	74%	84%
Slash	118%	100%	123%

Earlier on I mentioned that special attributes could be added to differentiate weapon types and balance stuff out a little more. I've thought of possible attributes...

Sword - Every hit dealt has a chance of being split into two hits, each dealing 60% damage (Based on skill damage if a skill is used. Basically calculated after all other factors affecting damage have been factored in).

Axe - Every hit dealt has a small chance of hitting two enemies instead of one with no damage reduction. Mobbing attacks simply deal damage without any form of penalty, without hitting additional targets like single-target attacks would.

Blunt Weapon - Every hit dealt has a chance to deal 120% damage (Based on skill damage if a skill is used. Basically calculated after all other factors affecting damage have been factored in).

Can't think of anything else for the other weapons. x.x

I do like this idea... but it isn't something really 'new'. For example, bow has the natural "rate of knockback" imbued with it. It's such a simple idea to take this characteristic and apply them over to the warrior side to differentiate each type of weapon. Although, I must say that the "rate of knockback" feature is utterly useless now, since Bowman class/ job does not need to have minimum distance to trigger the knockback action anymore, which is kinda turned its feature redundant.

Anyways, some suggestions:

1) Sword : piecing dmg, ignore certainly % of Weapon def of mobs, as per weapon lvl

2) Axe : bleeding dmg, create a DoT % rate at a certain rate as per weapon lvl

3) Blunt weapon aka Mace : stunned mobs at a certain % rate as per weapon lvl (in reality, when a hammer hit u, u'll be unconscious)

EDIT: perhaps futher in the future, they could make Axe as a dual class.... E.g. Allowing Axe to be throwable with certain skill set and non-throwable if skill is not activated but still have non-throwing skill sets (E.g. Troll Warlord in D.o.T.A--- oh ya, something like windwalker cygnus, transformed and b4 transformation different skill sets)

-double posted- sry

Back in those times the whole reason of making a str dit was for the looks/availability of the Angelic betrayal. It was dropped at MDT's and cursayer was the best looking weapon (arguable against the DT). However a clean cursayer was half the price of something like a blood dagger. The point of my objection was players, although unfortunately not the majority, don't make DPS their highest priority, in fact look at the bigger scale of things such as efficiency. To an axe vs a sword the DPS will have a negligible difference. Nothing that would say, result in a bf war auto win each time. Just like there was an insignificant difference between a str/luk dit.

I'm still of the opinion that player psychology is largely directed by the path of least resistance (which has been around since beta). This path includes economic efficiency, as well as leveling efficiency. DPS and costs are just a subset of factors that influence player decision making. While the split is still around, you may notice that DPS overrules weapon efficiency and several other factors that go with it; one opens the possibility of nicely scrolled items for cheap, but they have to deal with a terrible damage formula, and extra time and effort just to still lose to swords (even to cheaper and badly scrolled swords) in the end. It's not as simple as the DEX-STR example for bandits which mainly involves hard stats, and therefore cannot explain why so many people have gone the sword path for so long. So it's not just economic efficiency, it's also those extra factors that go with the split removal. The path of least resistance should be a good working model as long as you don't involve Nexon's carrot-stick paradigm, which actually encourages bad decision making and perseveration as opposed to having fun. Finally, the point of the thread is that the split removal and weapon changes, while they do enable certain advantages to players such that many will choose to use the alternative for cheap, does not actually change the end motivational state of players. Instead, it consolidates the two motivational states from before, and whichever motivation is stronger wins overall.

Although I already conceded many of the points that have been brought up (such that the removal of the split was not pointless, etc), it needs to be emphasized that the debate can still really go either way, as I'm sure Nexon will eventually release the next generation of higher leveled weapons. This is one reason that I believe the buff is unsatisfactory; Nexon can just reverse their decision at any time, and it's really too early to make conclusions. Currently, and at the time of expected patch release, swords are two talking points ahead of alternates, while alts mainly have that one talking point of economic efficiency that really has always been there. All of these talking points are subject to dramatic shifts at the whim of Nexon, but it's good that players no longer need to waste their ability points on this crap anymore.