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+---- Thread: Practical Uses for Hamstring (/showthread.php?tid=9417)
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Practical Uses for Hamstring - KaidaTan - 2009-03-19
After having finally got Phoenix to 21 I started thinking: What's next? I figure I'm going to spend another 5 levels maxing out Phoenix and Concentrate. Then I was deciding whether or not to save up points for the theoretical MW 30. But that's not the topic of this thread.
Hamstring was going to be my next skill after Conc and Phoenix (and maybe MW) are all level 30. I was wracking my brain to think of all the possible potential uses it could have in the future. It doesn't work on bosses (*cry*), so I tried to look for specific positions where it would be nice to have a monster go 60 speed slower while I was training for 8 hours a few days ago. And honestly, I couldn't think of any. As far as I can see, you need to use Pulse for Hamstring to be of any use, but I don't use Pulse. Ever. The way I see it (even when there's 4 Skeles in the way) I would rather do a Strafe or .8 seconds of Hurricane to kill the monsters faster instead of pushing them away. I can always jump-Strafe over the beams if need be.
What about the future though? Time temple will be the new stomping grounds for just about everyone. The mobs seem thick enough that I might actually want to use Pulse, but I dunno. Also I'm not entirely sure about the nature of those Fire thingy's attacks. They could be avoidable and medium-range (like skelegons), or they could be unavoidable and long-range (Newties, HATE). That also plays a part. I mean, if I'm going to be hit regardless of how far away they are from me, there's no point in pulsing them at all.
Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling at this point. I was hoping anyone could think of possible uses for Hamstring so I can actually look forward to it. It's really the only skill I have left.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Sn1perJohnE - 2009-03-19
if i remember correctly, it works on angeo and BF and Pap form 2 @-a
Other than that, using it would require a fast moving mob, single target at best, tho it would still work in mobs of em, but the effect might not be as noticable.
And the working on bosses is based on using it on FMS and because mages Slow works as well.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Icedfire - 2009-03-19
mages slow works on everything except immobile monsters. hamstring only works on monsters.
imo, its thoroughly worthless except for strong flying monsters that you see in neo tokyo. but then again, you don't train on those.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Sn1perJohnE - 2009-03-19
Well, all we can do is sit and hope they add hamstring to the change list to make it work on bosses
if it WERE to work tho, it would be very useful, but as is, not too much use in maxing it, maybe just a few points for slowing mobs slightly before they bumrush you.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Icedfire - 2009-03-19
except that the level in which you would be able to get hamstring, you're capable of blinking at monsters and having their drops appear.
whenever i get to that point im just sticking those points into my 3rd job skills again, finish mb thrust and hawk...
Practical Uses for Hamstring - IsaacGS - 2009-03-19
It's a little biased since i was playing as a windbreaker, but Storm Breath was EXTREMELY useful in Time temple (on the order of "Life saving") so I think DB will be very useful there. Then again, ever since I started playing windbreaker I can't *stop* using DB on my bowmaster. I think the best tactic would be to DB them into a mob, then stun with bomb, because otherwise you're being accosted by a constant barrage of unavoidable magic attacks with huge range. At your level, though, you may not need to mob them like this. If your hurricane is powerful enough, you can just step-shoot your way across the platform, as one almost always appears where the last one was. It might be good to split the map, and let one person take the bottom while the other takes the top. But yeah, I don't see anything in Time Temple requiring hamstring.
I have to wonder why all our abilities never work on bosses. No hamstring, but slow works. No DB, but rush works. No stun, but many can be disabled in other ways. It makes these skills a lot less useful when they do this. >_>
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Dusk - 2009-03-19
Hamstring sucks for pretty much the exact same reason you always bash Inferno.
Hurricane mows every monster down fast enough that there's no need for BMs to push them back or hold them at bay. There's no reason to use DB, because both BM ranged mobbing skills (Arrow Bomb and Inferno) only beat Hurricane on large mobs that don't exist in everyday training and are generally not worth using.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - KaidaTan - 2009-03-19
IsaacGS Wrote:It's a little biased since i was playing as a windbreaker, but Storm Breath was EXTREMELY useful in Time temple (on the order of "Life saving") so I think DB will be very useful there. Then again, ever since I started playing windbreaker I can't *stop* using DB on my bowmaster. I think the best tactic would be to DB them into a mob, then stun with bomb, because otherwise you're being accosted by a constant barrage of unavoidable magic attacks with huge range. At your level, though, you may not need to mob them like this. If your hurricane is powerful enough, you can just step-shoot your way across the platform, as one almost always appears where the last one was. It might be good to split the map, and let one person take the bottom while the other takes the top. But yeah, I don't see anything in Time Temple requiring hamstring.Honestly, I think Storm Breath is better than Dragon Pulse, at least for BMs. All the times I would actually want to use DP, I'm too close to the monsters so I just MB repeatedly until I can finally start Hurricane, or I realize there's too many monsters to do this and just start spamming jump-AR.
BTW, how huge of an unavoidable range are we talking? Is it even possible to attack them and not be in their range, or am I just doomed to spend lots of money on pots there? Also, how immediately do they attack? For example, if a skelegon doesn't need to buff up, he attacks almost instantly. But if he does, it takes a while. I guess I should also ask if they have any self-buffs.
IsaacGS Wrote:I have to wonder why all our abilities never work on bosses. No hamstring, but slow works. No DB, but rush works. No stun, but many can be disabled in other ways. It makes these skills a lot less useful when they do this. >_>If Blind and Hamstring worked at half-effect on bosses, I would be so happy. Imagine a slow Anego, or imagine a Zakum that misses everyone 15% of the time. These skills would actually be really really good then.
As it stands now, though, I'm thinking Blind is far better than Hamstring. At least Blind has a chance to save you some pots. Hamstring works no such magic.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - IsaacGS - 2009-03-19
KaidaTan Wrote:Honestly, I think Storm Breath is better than Dragon Pulse, at least for BMs. All the times I would actually want to use DP, I'm too close to the monsters so I just MB repeatedly until I can finally start Hurricane, or I realize there's too many monsters to do this and just start spamming jump-AR.You can't get outside their range and hit them, their range is 400 just like ours. There's not even anywhere you can really stand and AR or something like that, cause they have 200 px vertical range as well. The only way I've found to keep them puppetized is if you jump down and put the puppet on a lower platform, because they can't hit down there below them, but other than that anywhere you can hit them, they can hit you. For this reason mobbing them can be difficult because you'll be getting hit nonstop. This is why I think bomb would be very helpful, you could stun them and then proceed with Hurricane.
BTW, how huge of an unavoidable range are we talking? Is it even possible to attack them and not be in their range, or am I just doomed to spend lots of money on pots there? Also, how immediately do they attack? For example, if a skelegon doesn't need to buff up, he attacks almost instantly. But if he does, it takes a while. I guess I should also ask if they have any self-buffs.
If Blind and Hamstring worked at half-effect on bosses, I would be so happy. Imagine a slow Anego, or imagine a Zakum that misses everyone 15% of the time. These skills would actually be really really good then.
As it stands now, though, I'm thinking Blind is far better than Hamstring. At least Blind has a chance to save you some pots. Hamstring works no such magic.
Storm Breath is quite a bit more useful than dragon Breath, for sure, and I was hitting 6 monsters with it as opposed to DB's 4 at level 1, but I think that it would be useful for gathering them up so you can stun them easily.
On the other hand, the attack is somewhat slow. On the windbreaker, with 90% hurricane and 80% mastery with fairly crappy equips (100%'d stuff, but it was also created with maker so it wasn't exactly average) they would usually get off their attack at 40% health, and not have time to launch a second one. One thing I kept having problems with was that Monsters would spawn in between me and my target, and I'd hit the new one, then have both attacking me. The spawn is quite dense, which is another reason I think pushing them with DB is a good idea.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Dusk - 2009-03-20
I thought archers had 440 range.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - KaidaTan - 2009-03-20
Dusk Wrote:I thought archers had 440 range.
I measured it a few weeks ago. It's 400 just like sins. But the 400 starts 30 pixels from the center of your character.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Shidoshi - 2009-03-20
KaidaTan Wrote:I measured it a few weeks ago. It's 400 just like sins. But the 400 starts 30 pixels from the center of your character.
someone should start compiling a new pinned thread about attack ranges for everything.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - KaidaTan - 2009-03-20
Also, I just spend a few minutes testing Hamstring at Anego. Hamstring, for sure, does not work on bosses. So... now what? Do I just have nothing to look forward to?
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Kevvl - 2009-03-20
KaidaTan Wrote:I measured it a few weeks ago. It's 400 just like sins. But the 400 starts 30 pixels from the center of your character.JoeTang measured Dragon Pulse to be exactly 440 pixels. It's in the .wz files as being that distance with any level of Eye of the Amazon.
Shidoshi Wrote:someone should start compiling a new pinned thread about attack ranges for everything.Again, JT made a thread like that. Dunno if he posted it everywhere, I remember seeing it on Basil, and that's all.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Russt - 2009-03-20
JT didn't measure anything. Dragon Pulse has a 'range' attribute of 440 in the data.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Kevvl - 2009-03-20
Russt Wrote:JT didn't measure anything. Dragon Pulse has a 'range' attribute of 440 in the data.I know - Same idea. Measuring it from the .wz files.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Dusk - 2009-03-20
Wait, is the 440 just for DP or for all archer skills? I've been under the impression that archers had a smidge more range than assassins for years.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Kevvl - 2009-03-20
440 for DP, assumed to be 440 for all skills, since DP doesn't push them out of your range.
Assassins are likewise speculated to be 400. I know from personal experience that archers DO have a tad more range, even if 400/440 is incorrect.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - IsaacGS - 2009-03-20
Even if we assume it is 440, that would still mean you'd have to be at your maximum possible distance at all times to not get hit, and we all know that's not realistically possible. Maybe Windbreakers have slightly different range, but I know that I couldn't hit any of the monsters outside their range.
Practical Uses for Hamstring - Retalion - 2009-03-21
Im not familiar with Time Temple mobs but what about <<<<DB, puppet >>>> with Hamstring? That way, they wont be hitting you because their 400 range (or whatever it is) is going after puppet and not on you, meaning it wont attack till it gets close to you. Then hamstring can keep them coming towards you slower, allowing you more time to kill them before they start attacking? Unless TT mobs autoaggro/hit everything on the map.
I remember talking to a friend who has maxed hamstring and he tells me that its useful when he was surrounded with 4 skeles on each side of him and hamstring allowed him to kill them all without using puppet after DBing both sides...yeah, not that useful, if you're putting 30 points in for a scenario that almost never happens...