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+--- Thread: Class Role Balance (/showthread.php?tid=7400)
Class Role Balance - Dusk - 2009-01-16
I posted this a little bit ago in the Pirate subforums, but I thought about it some more and decided it was interesting enough to share here.
Obviously, there has been a move toward balancing classes lately. One interesting development is that Marksmen have been moved up to around BM strength, up from the melee class DPS area. Corsairs have also been buffed so their ship will break less easily (because people will actually want to invest points in it) and that their damage with Rapid Fire when their Ship breaks is still nearly as high as the damage of an average Hero or DrK, and higher than a NL without SE.
Wait, what? How is it fair that Corsairs without Battleship still do nearly as much damage as the strongest melee classes (assuming the boss is not weak to any elements), you say? Well, I think that Nexon Korea is trying to define the roles of classes at bosses better.
This is what the roles of every class at bosses in GMS looks like right now (may change as we get more high levelled Pirates):
NLs: main DPS class; outdamages pretty much everyone else
BMs: also a DPS class; provides the buffs that makes NLs strong
MMs: substitute for a BM where none is available
Corsairs: DPS, not common yet
Heroes: high damage; can take hits where ranged classes can't
DrKs: provides HB for ranged classes if necessary
Shadowers: provide Smoke; almost never get hit
Buccaneers: provide Time Leap and SI
Bishops: mob control with Gen, provides support (res, heal, HS)
Mages, Paladins: not used (much)
Kind of messy, but this is the MS we know and love/hate. Now, the new changes seem to be a reorganization of classes so that all similar classes can play the same role:
ALL Ranged classes: High DPS. Ranged classes are the strongest single-target attackers in the game by far, but are plagued by low survivability.
- BMs/MMs: provide increased damage for party, especially NLs
- NLs/Corsairs: staple attackers, even stronger than BMs/MMs
ALL Warriors: Mid DPS/tanks. Warriors deal a lot of damage, and can absorb hits where high HP is necessary and stay in place with Stance.
- Heroes/Paladins: staple attackers; Paladins (whom actually have a decent-sized hitbox with Blast now) are more useful when bosses have elemental weaknesses; and also provide Threaten, a minor boost to the run.
- DrKs: provide HB for ranged classes
Shadowers and Buccaneers: Low DPS, buff support. Still play the same role they had before, but they are now on more even ground in terms of damage (in that Shadowers have been buffed).
Bishops: Healing (Heal/Res), buff support, mob control. Same as before.
Mages: Still not used. DPS is about the same as Shadowers and Buccaneers, but they provide no buffs. This is the group that needs the most fixing.
I like the idea of categories/roles for each class. It's a good model, at least for the bosses that are typically tackled as a group. It falls apart when people try to solo. They either need to discourage solo jobs, or they need to provide more incentives to not be a DPS class (DPS classes gain the most experience, are generally considered to have the most important job, and to many they are the most fun to play). They need to do something about rewarding all helpers at bosses equally.
Any other ideas for how to make the whole role system work and still be fair to each group?
Class Role Balance - VladTheLvr - 2009-01-16
This is a balanced role for bossing, but we need more monsters that will balance out the training that AMs and Bishops get.
In terms of total DPS, depending on the damage/situation I say, AMs and Marksmen are best.
Class Role Balance - DrRusty - 2009-01-16
They should bring up barrage's % to like 270% and demolition to 475%.
I still think bucs are better than shad's in terms of boss damage and useability at bosses. Si is to melee as SE is to NLs. Bucs don't train as easily as shadowers, but they have better single target DPS (especially during demolition).
Class Role Balance - Kirov - 2009-01-16
ndynslvr Wrote:This is a balanced role for bossing, but we need more monsters that will balance out the training that AMs and Bishops get.
In terms of total DPS, depending on the damage/situation I say, AMs and Marksmen are best.
If you take away an Arch Mages levelling speed what do you leave them with? That's pretty much all they have got over other classes.
Class Role Balance - Stereo - 2009-01-16
DPS should act in favour of melee classes, since it's harder for them to fight bosses (can't pin/snipe, danger of touch damage, KB always knocks them out of strike range, etc). Why even play a melee class when you can get better damage with better range at less risk? All Warriors are good for right now is supporting skills, and 2/3 of the subclasses don't even have one.
Class Role Balance - MasPan - 2009-01-16
Kirov Wrote:If you take away an Arch Mages levelling speed what do you leave them with? That's pretty much all they have got over other classes.
Easiest, "cheapest" (where leech is a factor, they make so much money training is virtually costless), and best for making money quickly for not really doing anything.
Class Role Balance - Kirov - 2009-01-16
MasPan Wrote:Easiest, "cheapest" (where leech is a factor, they make so much money training is virtually costless), and best for making money quickly for not really doing anything.
Which comes from their mob skils and ability to level/train. Which if removed would leave them with nothing over other classes.
Class Role Balance - GMSInfighter - 2009-01-16
Wait, the upgrades to each class haven't come to GMS yet right? I thought these upgrades were from KMS, meaning we won't have them for a little bit.
Class Role Balance - Takebacker - 2009-01-16
Mages should essentially/ideally be, if anything at all, mob control.
We need more bosses with crazy summons like zak, except denser mobs.
Class Role Balance - Lozmaster - 2009-01-16
Takebacker Wrote:Mages should essentially/ideally be, if anything at all, mob control.
I second that. Mob control and bosses with weaknesses >
Sanctuary at 20 seconds with mob control bosses would actually sit paladins right where I think they were supposed to as well now that I think about it, able to take care of large amounts of mobs, not quite as effectively as mages but with improved 1v1 damage over mages, but worse than heroes.
Class Role Balance - Kabanaw - 2009-01-16
I think mages should also be able to do a decent amount of DPS as well :^l
I don't want to go to a boss just so I can spam blizz/ IS whenever there's a summon. I also want to be able to do pretty good damage to the boss.
And I'd rather not have elemental advantages at bosses. Because where there's elemental weaknesses, there're stregnths. Whenever Zak starts summoning the blue mobs, i'm pretty much done with mob control because they're ice strong/immune.
Really, what's needed is training balance and bossing balance. It's not fair if after AMs have nothing to do but boss they can't do as much damage. I'd take a nerf to my blizz damage if it meant a boost in my CL dmg.
Class Role Balance - heronz - 2009-01-16
Stereo Wrote:DPS should act in favour of melee classes, since it's harder for them to fight bosses (can't pin/snipe, danger of touch damage, KB always knocks them out of strike range, etc). Why even play a melee class when you can get better damage with better range at less risk? All Warriors are good for right now is supporting skills, and 2/3 of the subclasses don't even have one.
agreed. But i feel Nexon had a chance for this but wasted it with SI... if they can make a skill that is proximity based it would have been more beneficial.
maybe somethign like: max dist X1.2 dmg, mid dist x1.4 dmg, closest x1.6 dmg. this will help the infighters/ pallys/ shad the most. but substantial enough for heroes/dks, and if nl/bm/mm use it too, well it'll be balanced. it'll also help with bean and any of the bosses with seduce or zombie.
Class Role Balance - Kabanaw - 2009-01-16
To tell you the truth, I think all Nexon needs to do is change magician's forumula. You know, so int/ MA aren't the same thing?
Class Role Balance - Russt - 2009-01-17
Good concept, but I think Nexon still needs to do a bit of work.
IE:
- Remove the attacking speed cap to extend SI's effectiveness to everyone
- Reduce the cooldown time of Smokescreen so it can be used more than 10% of the time (Holy Shield and Invincible too, but those are less relevant)
- Make 'absorbing hits' actually have a meaning (for example, boss damage decreases by 5% after each player it hits, starting from the closest?)
- Give more bosses element attributes (>>LIT<<)
- Give AMs some sort of valuable party buff, possibly along the lines of damage amp and/or magic resistance
Class Role Balance - Takebacker - 2009-01-17
It's too late for any kind of skill book revamp. If they did it like that, it would have to be in the form of a 190+ quest that you level up through rigorous tests of....uh....mental fortitude i guess.
The cap shouldn't be lifted for SI, in my opinion. It's supposed to be to melee classes what SE is to critting classes. What it SHOULD do is extend to magic attacks as well as weapon attacks, yet break the "magic speed cap" if there is one. It makes us more valuable/desireable for training/bossing parties, while vastly increasing mage offensive power in all aspects, which i think we all agree is kinda needed. At least at bossing anyway. :/
You forgot revamp the defense formula, by the way.
Class Role Balance - Russt - 2009-01-17
Takebacker Wrote:The cap shouldn't be lifted for SI, in my opinion. It's supposed to be to melee classes what SE is to critting classes. What it SHOULD do is extend to magic attacks as well as weapon attacks, yet break the "magic speed cap" if there is one. It makes us more valuable/desireable for training/bossing parties, while vastly increasing mage offensive power in all aspects, which i think we all agree is kinda needed. At least at bossing anyway. :/2 speed levels isn't really enough to shift any tiers, though. It's vastly overrated.
Class Role Balance - Scaeva - 2009-01-17
Takebacker Wrote:You forgot revamp the defense formula, by the way.
Maybe something like this:
(Magic)Defence added by job:
Warrior: 40%
Pirate: 30%(Would really help Corsairs)
Bowman: 20%(They should be able to take more hits than Thiefs)
Thief: 10%(Meant to be fragile)
Mage: 0%(Same as Thiefs)
(Magic)Defence added by Shield:
30%
So a Warrior with 1k(lol) defence and a shield(those don't really add a lot of defence so they should get a multiplier too) would get +70%(+700) to their defence. But even with this defence still doesn't do a lot because the avarage bosser still doesn't have over 1000 defence and not everyone has a shield or is a Warrior. This would make scrolling for defence some more usefull.
So, anyone care to help me on this?
Class Role Balance - darksyte - 2009-01-17
here's a thought: why don't they just make bosses that dont' sit in one spot the entire fight?
Class Role Balance - Lozmaster - 2009-01-17
darksyte Wrote:here's a thought: why don't they just make bosses that dont' sit in one spot the entire fight?
You mean like anego, crimson rogs, giest rog, papulatus, bigfoot and pink bean?
Class Role Balance - darksyte - 2009-01-17
Lozmaster Wrote:You mean like anego, crimson rogs, giest rog, papulatus, bigfoot and pink bean?
anego and bigfoot are cannon fodder, I'm not sure on the specifics of PB but isn't it immobile as well?
but other-wise yes, more bosses along the lines of the balrog family, somewhat along the lines of pap but pap can also turn into a pindown "spam the same move to KB it" type of fight easy. A boss that won't sit still and take what the ranged classes throw at it without an actual fight.