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+---- Thread: The DEF Paladin (/showthread.php?tid=7038)
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The DEF Paladin - Derimed - 2009-01-04
While replying to another thread, I recalled a guide made by a 12x WK in the pre-4th job era. His thing was raping DEF scrolls to make his character invincible, to the point where he could train on monsters way too high lvl for him, AFKing in high lvl mobs and saving a huge amount of money on potions. While now 12x is not high lvl at all, back then it was. With Power Guard, Achilles, Shield Mastery and equips scrolled for DEF, (I am guessing the cape could be a Pink Gaia instead of DEF,) could such a character cut it in Leafre or Neo Tokyo while breaking even, (drops compensate for pot costs,) and lvl fairly efficiently? I am not poor, so I don't have to make such a character, I am just wondering in theory. Also, what build do you guys think such a character should have?"
Thanks!
The DEF Paladin - Russt - 2009-01-04
Hah... I've seen that guide.
Defense just isn't good enough in this game. If you want, you could try it out, but it'd be a novelty at most.
The DEF Paladin - KatanaKiwi - 2009-01-04
well if im not mistaken neo tokio bought a beginner skill that is called "hyper defense" or something and that skill would multiply your defense by 5 for a certain time.. dont know if there are any cooldowns..
anyways i think that maybe then it would start to make a difference but i cant think of any boss on which it would be usefull on.. for training you dont need def as a warrior anyways cause of high hp paladins/heroes have.
The DEF Paladin - JoeTang - 2009-01-04
KatanaKiwi Wrote:for training you dont need def as a warrior anyways cause of high hp paladins/heroes have.
The point of having that much godly defense is so you don't use as many potions.
The DEF Paladin - Orit - 2009-01-04
Trouble is, if you scroll your equipment for defense, you don't scroll it for att/str/dex/acc.
That means your damage is lower than it could have been, it takes you more hits to kill monsters, and therefore they get in more hits on you.
So it's not entirely clear you'd be saving potions this way.
If def became a bit more meaningful (I like that 5x def thing, although personally I would design something that increases def with your level or your stats, same as damage), to the point where you could afk in Phantom Forest and the Elder Wraiths wouldn't bump you to death in the time it takes to get a soda, the defensive policy might become worthwhile again.
The DEF Paladin - Holypie - 2009-01-04
wouldn't it just be easier to scroll for hp?
The DEF Paladin - Dusk - 2009-01-04
I think defense needs a boost in general. If Defense was worth say, yeah, 5x as much to begin with, we wouldn't need those ridiculously cheap NLC % pots, and people wouldn't piss themselves every time an AP reset sale came on.
The DEF Paladin - Stereo - 2009-01-04
Ok, start with the typical 2400 damage in Leafre.
1. Threaten drops this to ~2200.
Gear: 160 hat + 250 pendant + 50 cape + 125 top + 115 bottom + 40 glove + 60 shoe + 100 shield(x2) = 1000 defense.
2. Drops to ~1700.
Defensive skills...
3. Achilles (15% reduction): 1445
4. Powerguard (40%): 867
5. Guardian (15% chance to not take damage): 730
On the other hand. Look at a normal Paladin.
2400 damage
Threaten -> 2200
Gear: 150+250+10+105+90+5+60 = 670 def
-> 1860
-> 1581
-> 948
The extra defense (Primarily shield+shield mastery) only saves 9% damage, Guardian is more helpful. And I suspect the 2nd char would be more than 9% stronger, what with taking atk cape & stormcaster over Ludi Cape & high lv. warrior gloves.
I guess the answer is... if a normal Paladin can brek even, a def one can.
The DEF Paladin - Derimed - 2009-01-05
Stereo Wrote:Ok, start with the typical 2400 damage in Leafre.
1. Threaten drops this to ~2200.
Gear: 160 hat + 250 pendant + 50 cape + 125 top + 115 bottom + 40 glove + 60 shoe + 100 shield(x2) = 1000 defense.
2. Drops to ~1700.
Defensive skills...
3. Achilles (15% reduction): 1445
4. Powerguard (40%): 867
5. Guardian (15% chance to not take damage): 730
On the other hand. Look at a normal Paladin.
2400 damage
Threaten -> 2200
Gear: 150+250+10+105+90+5+60 = 670 def
-> 1860
-> 1581
-> 948
The extra defense (Primarily shield+shield mastery) only saves 9% damage, Guardian is more helpful. And I suspect the 2nd char would be more than 9% stronger, what with taking atk cape & stormcaster over Ludi Cape & high lv. warrior gloves.
I guess the answer is... if a normal Paladin can brek even, a def one can.
Thank you, that was very helpful.
The DEF Paladin - EvilCowKing - 2009-01-15
Stereo Wrote:Ok, start with the typical 2400 damage in Leafre.
1. Threaten drops this to ~2200.
Gear: 160 hat + 250 pendant + 50 cape + 125 top + 115 bottom + 40 glove + 60 shoe + 100 shield(x2) = 1000 defense.
2. Drops to ~1700.
Defensive skills...
3. Achilles (15% reduction): 1445
4. Powerguard (40%): 867
5. Guardian (15% chance to not take damage): 730
On the other hand. Look at a normal Paladin.
2400 damage
Threaten -> 2200
Gear: 150+250+10+105+90+5+60 = 670 def
-> 1860
-> 1581
-> 948
The extra defense (Primarily shield+shield mastery) only saves 9% damage, Guardian is more helpful. And I suspect the 2nd char would be more than 9% stronger, what with taking atk cape & stormcaster over Ludi Cape & high lv. warrior gloves.
I guess the answer is... if a normal Paladin can brek even, a def one can.
Let's not forget that maxing Guardian + Achilles would take until 140, provided you forgo 1 Rush + 10 ACB. Without ACB and Holy/Divine Charge, what would you expect to train on for 20 levels until Neotokyo etc. comes to GMS? Red Wyverns? Don't think so!
I really wish they'd fix the damage formula so Def actually mattered more... =\
The DEF Paladin - TFindlay - 2009-01-19
Defense should be scaled to increase exponentially, so every point of defense from 1-100 is worth 1 def, 101-200 is worth 2 def, 201-300 worth 4 def, etc. A person with 600 def would actually have defense equal to what 6300 def is now.
This way not only is defense scaled so it keeps up with the increase in damage that monsters deal, defense scrolls keep their usefulness through all levels (because +5 def w/ 500 def is worth more than 5 def w/ 100 def)
The DEF Paladin - PokéJames - 2009-01-23
Stereo Wrote:Ok, start with the typical 2400 damage in Leafre.
1. Threaten drops this to ~2200.
Gear: 160 hat + 250 pendant + 50 cape + 125 top + 115 bottom + 40 glove + 60 shoe + 100 shield(x2) = 1000 defense.
2. Drops to ~1700.
Defensive skills...
3. Achilles (15% reduction): 1445
4. Powerguard (40%): 867
5. Guardian (15% chance to not take damage): 730
On the other hand. Look at a normal Paladin.
2400 damage
Threaten -> 2200
Gear: 150+250+10+105+90+5+60 = 670 def
-> 1860
-> 1581
-> 948
The extra defense (Primarily shield+shield mastery) only saves 9% damage, Guardian is more helpful. And I suspect the 2nd char would be more than 9% stronger, what with taking atk cape & stormcaster over Ludi Cape & high lv. warrior gloves.
I guess the answer is... if a normal Paladin can brek even, a def one can.
Is there a formula for how much physical damage a monster inflicts? Or does 1 w.atk for a monster always correspond to 10 damage?
The DEF Paladin - Stereo - 2009-01-23
No known formula...
Approximation -> (atk)^2 /120 + W - 0.5*def
W = 2*level for warriors, 1*level for Bowmen/Thief, 0.5*level for Mages, ~3 for Beginners
It's something more complicated than this, it's just not significantly different. (str, player level, player defense, monster level, monster atk, and a table of class-based adjustments are used, but this is close)
The DEF Paladin - butterfλi - 2009-01-23
An alternative to def for saving money is having more hp. Remember, gMS has access to the best potions in any maple version. The set of HB armor and maybe some 1atk hp cape (lol), you can pull out some 500+ hp.
If a warrior is poor enough to rely on def for money saving (these days), they can always take it slow like DKs. Most DKs will hesitate to rush mobs because the risk of taking too much damage/overpotting/etc. They'd stand back and crusher 2 or 3 times.
There's also the faster you can kill, the less damage you take.
The DEF Paladin - Obike - 2009-01-24
Most decent Paladins/Heroes can already train in Leafre without losing out financially anyways. Also Zhelms and HTP's make scrolling for Def comparatively obsolete. I only have around 7xx def, 400 of which comes from my helm/HTP.
As previously stated also, if you kill'em fast enough you don't need def/hp! with HB, I can train at skele without using any pots at all (Overall that is. Bishop heals me when I get HS'd and skele drop more mana elixirs than I use). The other thing to consider though, if you're going to consider something like a def build, is magic def. I've only seen w.def stuff here xD Achilles and Guardian apply to magic damage (Yes I know Achilles says "Physical Damage", but it's been proven to work on magic skills too), but sadly Power Guard remains useless against magic attacks.
And that's my two cents on the subject. :>
The DEF Paladin - EvilCowKing - 2009-01-28
TFindlay Wrote:Defense should be scaled to increase exponentially, so every point of defense from 1-100 is worth 1 def, 101-200 is worth 2 def, 201-300 worth 4 def, etc. A person with 600 def would actually have defense equal to what 6300 def is now.
This way not only is defense scaled so it keeps up with the increase in damage that monsters deal, defense scrolls keep their usefulness through all levels (because +5 def w/ 500 def is worth more than 5 def w/ 100 def)
Wow, that's actually a very good suggestion! It's quite balanced and fair, IMO.
Obike Wrote:Most decent Paladins/Heroes can already train in Leafre without losing out financially anyways. Also Zhelms and HTP's make scrolling for Def comparatively obsolete. I only have around 7xx def, 400 of which comes from my helm/HTP.
As previously stated also, if you kill'em fast enough you don't need def/hp! with HB, I can train at skele without using any pots at all (Overall that is. Bishop heals me when I get HS'd and skele drop more mana elixirs than I use). The other thing to consider though, if you're going to consider something like a def build, is magic def. I've only seen w.def stuff here xD Achilles and Guardian apply to magic damage (Yes I know Achilles says "Physical Damage", but it's been proven to work on magic skills too), but sadly Power Guard remains useless against magic attacks.
And that's my two cents on the subject. :>
Yes, you're right. But that's also part of the problem too - when you're at the level of the mob, it usually takes no more than 2-4 hits to kill it anyway. What we would need to make defence more effective and useful would be enemies that would take 8+ hits, since they would be aggroed longer and would actually attack you.
The DEF Paladin - IllegallySane - 2009-01-30
TFindlay Wrote:Defense should be scaled to increase exponentially, so every point of defense from 1-100 is worth 1 def, 101-200 is worth 2 def, 201-300 worth 4 def, etc. A person with 600 def would actually have defense equal to what 6300 def is now.
This way not only is defense scaled so it keeps up with the increase in damage that monsters deal, defense scrolls keep their usefulness through all levels (because +5 def w/ 500 def is worth more than 5 def w/ 100 def)
So my 283 defense as a Pirate would equal... 626 defense of damage reduction (Was it -313 static damage, or actually -626 damage?).
Yes please. This is so simple, yet so effective. It encourages warriors to stand face to face with an enemy.
At the current state of the game, defense actually being as useful as other stats in the game is a pipe dream.
The DEF Paladin - Tryst - 2009-02-03
Defense is only really beneficial for lower levelled characters. For instance at level 50, with a Zakum Helmet and say +150 DEF of other equips, Golems at FoG would be doing around 1-20 damage to your character, as opposed to the 200-300 on non-DEF builds.
This is a massive potion-saver at that level, especially if they only end up doing 1s to you each hit.
However as soon as you start training on monsters around the level 70+ mark DEF becomes quite useless as, as explained above, you'd save more potions by having higher damage.
--
DEF is something I'd definantly advise getting if you weren't very wealthy or for some reason you were planning on training on monsters far lower level than yourself.
The DEF Paladin - RFSurg - 2009-02-03
The problem with using def to save money is you lose more time because of how long it takes you to kill things and actually advance your character. It may seem like you're spending less money but you're losing opportunity and possibly more money if it takes you much longer to get a level.
Defense is a worthless stat that will never have use unless a LOT of game mechanics are changed.
The DEF Paladin - Thunda - 2009-02-03
DEF seems useful in special situations: ex. a ZHelm will cut your damage taken by half in CPQ. Overall, though, it does not appear to be feasible (unless you explain the amount of time you are going to AFK in between checking on your character)