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The National Defense Authorization Act - Flonne - 2011-12-03
http://newsvoice.se/2011/12/02/us-senate-declares-the-entire-usa-to-be-a-battleground/
Article is a pretty biased review, but it links to the official documentation and does give out most of the major details, so I'll use it anyway. Try to ignore the overusage of buzzwords, lol.
Quote:in a stunning move that has civil libertarians stuttering with disbelief, the U.S. Senate has just passed a bill that effectively ends the Bill of Rights in America.
The National Defense Authorization Act is being called the most traitorous act ever witnessed in the Senate, and the language of the bill is cleverly designed to make you think it doesnt apply to Americans, but toward the end of the bill it essentially says it can apply to Americans if we want it to.
Bill Summary & Status, 112th Congress (2011 2012) | S.1867 | Latest Title: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 | Sponsor: Sen Levin, Carl [MI] (introduced 11/15/2011) | Related Bills: H.R.1540 | Latest Major Action: 12/1/2011 Passed/agreed to in Senate. | Status: Passed Senate with amendments by Yea-Nay. 93 7. | Record Vote Number: 218. | Latest Action: 12/1/2011National Defense Authorization Act
This bill, passed late last night in a 93-7 vote, declares the entire USA to be a battleground upon which U.S. military forces can operate with impunity, overriding Posse Comitatus and granting the military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate and even assassinate U.S. citizens with impunity.
Even WIRED magazine was outraged at this bill, reporting:
Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial
the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isnt limited to foreigners. Its confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas Robert Chesney a nonpartisan authority on military detention U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority.
The passage of this law is nothing less than an outright declaration of WAR against the American People by the military-connected power elite. If this is signed into law, it will shred the remaining tenants of the Bill of Rights and unleash upon America a total military dictatorship, complete with secret arrests, secret prisons, unlawful interrogations, indefinite detainment without ever being charged with a crime, the torture of Americans and even the legitimate assassination of U.S. citizens on right here on American soil!
If you have not yet woken up to the reality of the police state weve been warning you about, I hope you realize we are fast running out of time. Once this becomes law, you have no rights whatsoever in America no due process, no First Amendment speech rights, no right to remain silent, nothing.
Official stuff at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:s.01867:
Thoughts?
The National Defense Authorization Act - MuscleWizard - 2011-12-03
aw hell naw
The National Defense Authorization Act - Kabanaw - 2011-12-03
Hopefully the president will veto, or it won't pass the house. It isn't as extreme as these... Swedes make it out to be, but it's still not good.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Eliseo - 2011-12-03
This is strange. The presidencial candidate for the 2012 elections of the left party here in Mexico wants to pass an almost exact same bill.
Good luck United States, hope you don't become into a military dictatorship.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Eliseo - 2011-12-03
Well, I am laggy. Sorry.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Flonne - 2011-12-03
Kabanaw Wrote:Hopefully the president will vetoWell, it passed 93/7, I'm almost positive there's not any way he can veto that if it passes both with that kind of landslide, isn't it 2/3 majority that overrules him?
The National Defense Authorization Act - KhainiWest - 2011-12-03
Flonne Wrote:Well, it passed 93/7, I'm almost positive there's not any way he can veto that if it passes both with that kind of landslide, isn't it 2/3 majority that overrules him?
Only if it happens again lol
The National Defense Authorization Act - CrazyForDex - 2011-12-03
Eh yea pretty biased article, I don't really know much about this, but it sounds pretty unconstitutional. Judicial Review Ftw?
The National Defense Authorization Act - Raul - 2011-12-03
Kabanaw Wrote:Hopefully the president will veto, or it won't pass the house. It isn't as extreme as these... Swedes make it out to be, but it's still not good.
>passed the Senate
>House is more conservative
>we're fucking screwed
I really hope these socialists are just exaggerating.
The National Defense Authorization Act - KhainiWest - 2011-12-03
Raul Wrote:>passed the Senate
>House is more conservative
>we're pineappleing screwed
I really hope these socialists are just exaggerating.
It's all because of a response against wall street. It really isn't surprising, but even if obama were to veto it, as previoulsy said if he doesn't change some minds..we're fu`k'd.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Flonne - 2011-12-04
KhainiWest Wrote:It's all because of a response against wall street. It really isn't surprising, but even if obama were to veto it, as previoulsy said if he doesn't change some minds..we're fu`k'd.The second part of that is, will he even veto it? He hasn't made any official statement on it yet I don't think...
The problem with the idea that the entire US is screwed if this passes is one simple thing; for smaller countries like European ones, it is entirely possible to place the whole population under military rule...but for a country as large as this one, they will find it MUCH more difficult to do so. That very fact is the reason most current laws are so incredibly ignored and bypassed, the government is not large enough to control the country. Our military is pretty big, but I have a feeling that if this gets out of hand our psychotic friends in the south will rise up and be able to put the entire military on the defensive, people really have no idea how many crazy gun-toting rednecks just looking for a reason to shoot someone or take out their frustration on the government in general there are. They will jump on the chance to YEEHAW them to last century. The only reason the confederacy lost the civil war to begin with was because the citizens of the other side were equally insane at the time. THEY ARE OUT FOR BLOOD, LOOKING FOR REDEMPTION.
Seriously though, I was just linking this because it's a current event and was not on here yet, to me it's just another law that everyone will ignore if it isn't enforced, and everyone will revolution over if it IS enforced, and I'm pretty sure the government knows that. If they don't, they are in for a bit of surprise.
The National Defense Authorization Act - KhainiWest - 2011-12-04
Flonne Wrote:The second part of that is, will he even veto it? He hasn't made any official statement on it yet I don't think...
The problem with the idea that the entire US is screwed if this passes is one simple thing; for smaller countries like European ones, it is entirely possible to place the whole population under military rule...but for a country as large as this one, they will find it MUCH more difficult to do so. That very fact is the reason most current laws are so incredibly ignored and bypassed, the government is not large enough to control the country. Our military is pretty big, but I have a feeling that if this gets out of hand our psychotic friends in the south will rise up and be able to put the entire military on the defensive, people really have no idea how many crazy gun-toting rednecks just looking for a reason to shoot someone or take out their frustration on the government in general there are. They will jump on the chance to YEEHAW them to last century. The only reason the confederacy lost the civil war to begin with was because the citizens of the other side were equally insane at the time. THEY ARE OUT FOR BLOOD, LOOKING FOR REDEMPTION.
Seriously though, I was just linking this because it's a current event and was not on here yet, to me it's just another law that everyone will ignore if it isn't enforced, and everyone will revolution over if it IS enforced, and I'm pretty sure the government knows that. If they don't, they are in for a bit of surprise.
Well as I said, unless he has something notable to add to the discussion, then it doesn't matter if he does or not with that kind of ratio. Rest assured, this is a big "f`uck you" from our government, and is more than likely the first step towards the revolution. I mean seriously, how stupid do these idiots have to be to pass something like this in such a fragile state. The country is one straw away from essentially going all v for vendetta.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Flonne - 2011-12-04
KhainiWest Wrote:the first step towards the revolutionehehehehehe
I would call it the nail in their coffin. The "real" first steps started long before we were even born, and have continued to this day. This is just the worst in a long line of bad ideas. If they had not gone through those with no real uprising from the people to be seen, aside from passive ones, they would never even have considered this one. If this were the first step, it would be the ONLY step, because without that barrier of desensitivity to "stupid pomegranate the government does", even the MENTION of this reaching congress would cause a massive riot the size of the entire country. I don't give a damn if the government spies on me, they can't do anything with 99.999999% of what I do to begin with, and they have no reason to single me out to begin with; I don't give a damn if they limit what I can do, because they can't enforce any of those limits on a grand scale, and the "pick randomly" method has never worked and they know it, they will only pick out the worst offenders and leave the rest alone. This is one of the first laws that concerns me; you can't ignore "threat of assassination by the government" as well as letters of complaint or C&D letters, you know. Basically, it's the first law where, if they somehow gained the capacity to enforce it, I would actually care about; for the rest, even if they could enforce them to the full extent they wouldn't bother me that much, because I don't really do anything overtly illegal anyway. Lucky me, 2D is 100% legal regardless of depiction, here! I mean, I guess getting C&D ISP notices for DLing anime would be annoying, but they aren't allowed to monitor HTTP transit data without probable cause, so torrents would just go by the wayside and DDLs would become the norm. As for this one, though...like I said, if they could enforce it, it would be horrible, on a completely different level from anything that has come before. Someone in the military can't just say "sorry" for killing you, and with this, they probably wouldn't even need to do so to begin with.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Locked - 2011-12-04
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/742663/white_house_says_it_will_veto_domestic_military_detention_bill/
The National Defense Authorization Act - WillDaSnail - 2011-12-04
Did some extreme liberals really hype up that bill and spin it to make it sound bad?
(Disclaimer: I'm a moderate Democrat, and I don't like any extreme views from the left. In fact I disassociate myself from those views)
The National Defense Authorization Act - Exidous - 2011-12-04
I haven't read much about the details, but if the part of the bill that contravene bill of rights stuff doesn't exclude American citizens, it'll hit a judicial wall pretty quick. It's more likely congress wrote a couple of important clauses sloppily than it actually being an insidious plot by 90%+ of our legislative branch to destroy America. Or even more simply, idiots on the internet are misrepresenting things.
The only real legal grey area regarding the heavy criminal court rights where congress could push the envelope is what this bill seems to actually address - battlefield detention. They don't want a repeat of what happened with that "American Taliban" they caught in Afghanistan. If you're an American citizen who goes abroad and joins an armed force making war on the US, I don't believe you are entitled to all the legal protections of American citizens merely because the state failed to log your treason back when it occurred.
EDIT: I'm looking at section 1032 and it explicitly disallows US citizens from being detained under this bill's detainment provisions. Anyone know where the part is that supposedly says except "if we want it to" as the filthy communist Scandinavians put it?
EDIT2: Here's a not-retarded-socialist but potentially legalese explanation of the concern: http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/. So it goes back to what I said above, if it's not explicitly disallowed the courts will say this provision cant extend to persons protected under the bill of rights. These detention powers are about captures of once-American citizens actively engaged in foreign battlefield hostilities.
EDIT3: Subsection E of 1031 which according to loc.gov was the version passed by the senate states "(e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States."
The National Defense Authorization Act - Flonne - 2011-12-04
Exidous Wrote:-snip-So wait, I'm confused; that site you linked says in clear terms that people from section 1032 are exempt, but what is the difference between 1032 and 1031? Also, the way that is worded, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States." sounds to me like they are saying...this bill does nothing. Maybe it's just me. :l
WillDaSnail Wrote:(Disclaimer: I'm a moderate Democrat, and I don't like any extreme views from the left. In fact I disassociate myself from those views)I don't even remotely agree with any existing governmental party on the planet, so that's fine by me.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Link - 2011-12-04
Locked Wrote:http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/742663/white_house_says_it_will_veto_domestic_military_detention_bill/
The problem is, even if it gets vetoed by the President, Senate can over-ride the President's decision if they wanted it enough.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Kabanaw - 2011-12-04
Raul Wrote:>passed the Senate
>House is more conservative
>we're fucking screwed
I really hope these socialists are just exaggerating.
I'm just hoping it doesn't pass the house past 2/3s vote, if it does then let's hope the supreme court has got its act together.
The National Defense Authorization Act - Devil - 2011-12-04
Quote:the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn’t limited to foreigners.All reason behind any logic stopped here...
So it's OK to use military force against any civilians who ain't US citizens?
But it's not ok to do this when they are US citizens?
Focking sicko's... :')
Massive breach of UDHR, but hey, we're the USA, we don't focking care! :')
Ah well, the Dutch are still official at war with the USA anyway, since we have the International War Crime Tribunal, and the USA have their plans ready for a full scale military invasion of The Hague... :')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act <- Fail...