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+--- Thread: Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? (/showthread.php?tid=3885)
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Devil - 2008-10-02
First of all: This is not a discussion topic about 4th job AoE's being overpowered, because they are, and they ruined gMS, players training with an AoE get like 10x more exp then ppl without one... but ok... enough of that.
I've been wondering about the fact -WHY- Genesis / Blizz / Meteo didn't get a cooldown on them...
I mean, not like 1 minute or so, but like 5 - 10 - 15 seconds pet attack at all levels? Just like Heaven's Hammer... that skill got a massive cooldown too... (they could have made it that it would substract 7000 HP per use).
When Nexon designed the skill they must have known that this skill would be GM power like, only at some mayor costs, well not so costy in gMS because of potions, but still...
Why would Nexon give players a GM skill without a cooldown?
It would be the same thing as giving a Shadower Smokescreen which costs 50.000 mesos per use, without a cooldown. And then saying, Well it costs a lot, so people are not going to abuse it...
In fact, if a lvl 200 player with very good equips want, they can ks a GM with their skills... Why would such a skill ever be wanted without a tiny cooldown?
I just don't get it... Nexon made a statement about powerleveling, still they didn't do anything about the cause of it all, the 4th job ultimates spamming, which is VERY cheap to do, and if you're smart you can even MAKE money with them...
And I'm not even starting of using those skills to ks other people, just because they can... It just so f`ucks up the gameplay of maplestory...
Why didn't Nexon ever fix this? Are they really that unprofessional? Or do they really think they made a good balanced game? Or are they just in the current stat of "Ah well, w/e we f`ucked up, close it, lets move on to another game"?
I think it's sad that this will be they way Maplestory will go down in history... S> Leech... -.-
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - DrRusty - 2008-10-02
Classes are balanced in terms of how good they are at bossing and training. NL's and BMs are actually very slow while training since they only use single target attacks, but in exchange for being the slowest training, they're the best bossers. Mages are the exact opposite, they're the fastest trainers and the slowest bossers.
I could kill pap faster on my shadower at lvl 120, then I can on my bishop at lvl 152. That's just how the game is made.
If ultimates were taken away; then there wouldn't be anything mages are good for.
Then there's classes that are in the middle (Shadowers, Heroes, Marksmen, Pallys, DKs) Who are decent trainers and decent bossers, but not the best at either.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Kawasari Mimoto - 2008-10-02
I own a Night Lord, and I have access to a lv 14X Bishop, and with all of the hype of owning a Bishop, I didn't think it was all that great. >_> Oh, wow, "AoE", good luck bossing with Genesis/Meteo/Blizzard. <_< My NL definitely trains slower than my Bishop, but as Rusty said, NLs/Shadowers will boss faster. There's an upside and downside for every class. AoE classes practically are rather more in-effective at bossing.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - FelixTM - 2008-10-02
Yeah, the main part is what they've already said. Their ultimates are a balancing factor, because they really don't have all that much else. I like the Mage class, but it's quite sad how ineffective they are at bossing compared to other classes. My favorite part of this game is bossing...so that's a big deal. You can't deny Mages need their ultimate to stay alive. The Mage population would go down even more if they didn't at least have that.
I do, however, agree very strongly that the ultimates have changed the game in a negative way. There's sooo many pathetic leech fags now. Tons of people don't even play their class AT ALL during 3rd job. Why are they even on MS? Come on. Mages can get pretty rich off selling leech, which is great and all, but it comes at the cost of helping all these meso buyers/illegit/whatevers get free levels. Quite sad how that's the become the truth of MS.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - butterfλi - 2008-10-02
Can we put a cooldown on triple throw when NLs get SE and apples too?
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Afrobean - 2008-10-02
I've been over this topic more than a few times in the Magician forum. Basically, it stems down to a few things:
#1: skills need to be strong enough to be worthwhile, but this is countered by how slow they are. The per hit DPS on these attacks are actually only roughly 1.5x the 3rd job analogues.
#2: with too much delay on them, they'd only be effective if they hit an unfair amount of monsters at once. Basically, put too much of a cooldown on it, and they'd only be viable for grinding if the player can hit 10+ EVERY time.
#3: They're an advanced version of previous skills. They're harder hitting, larger range, and because of the large range, hit more things at once.
Really, it's as simple as the fact that Mages need advanced attacks, and too much "balance" on these attacks would put them into the realm of being useless most of the time. This is especially troublesome for Bishops who have no other worthwhile attacking method. Angel Ray is garbage and Bahamut isn't much better. And that's not to say Mage's alternatives are much better either... demon fighting style is terrible and their "single target" attacks are comparatively the weakest single target damagers in the game, even taking into account their summon's added damage.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Stereo - 2008-10-02
DrRusty Wrote:Then there's classes that are in the middle (Shadowers, Heroes, Marksmen, Pallys, DKs) Who are decent trainers and decent bossers, but not the best at either.
Lol, so the fact that the top 50 is almost entirely Bishops doesn't mean anything?
They're getting the highest %/hr by nearly double what any other class can get.
Bishops are by no means a bad boss class, either. Ever try bossing without Bishops? As a class who will only ever go to Horntail because they needed someone with Stance to be seduced while everybody else attacks, I'm just a bit envious of the Bishops getting HS, Bless, Heal, Dispel, Resurrect, Invincible, Elemental Resistance, Holy Shield, and Mystic Door.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Afrobean - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:Lol, so the fact that the top 50 is almost entirely Bishops doesn't mean anything?I'm of the opinion that Bishop's required presence in boss fights justifies them getting better experience rates. If Bishops got poor experience, they'd be less likely to level, and they'd be harder to come by for bosses.
They're getting the highest %/hr by nearly double what any other class can get.
Bishops are by no means a bad boss class, either. Ever try bossing without Bishops? As a class who will only ever go to Horntail because they needed someone with Stance to be seduced while everybody else attacks, I'm just a bit envious of the Bishops getting HS, Bless, Heal, Dispel, Resurrect, Invincible, Elemental Resistance, Holy Shield, and Mystic Door.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Stereo - 2008-10-02
On the other hand, they can train without ever playing their character, which makes them less suitable for bosses because they don't know what to do. I know a lot of Priest/Bishops who are not that good at bosses :/ they just like the super high exp rates.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - FelixTM - 2008-10-02
Afrobean Wrote:I'm of the opinion that Bishop's required presence in boss fights justifies them getting better experience rates. If Bishops got poor experience, they'd be less likely to level, and they'd be harder to come by for bosses.
Agreed.
And while it's true Bishops are a huge part of bossing and required in at least one boss battle (Horntail), they have a much different role in bossing. They aren't attackers...at all. In large scale boss battles, their sole purpose is to support and keep the party alive. That's awesome - it's just not the role many people want to play in boss battles. If they didn't have their ultimates to make them a good class outside of bosses, too, their population would decrease. It's obvious how that would cause problems.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Dervish - 2008-10-02
DrRusty Wrote:Classes are balanced in terms of how good they are at bossing and training. NL's and BMs are actually very slow while training since they only use single target attacks, but in exchange for being the slowest training, they're the best bossers. Mages are the exact opposite, they're the fastest trainers and the slowest bossers.
Yes, because training faster than most non-ultimate-spamming-Mage classes in fourth job is slow, right?
FelixTM Wrote:If they didn't have their ultimates to make them a good class outside of bosses, too, their population would decrease. It's obvious how that would cause problems.
Before fourth jobs were ever conceived there were no problems finding Priests to level with. Right now, Bishops are like lawyers, a dime a dozen and only a handful of decent ones. If the ultimates were raped, all of the scrubby, useless Bishops who couldn't play their class anyway would quit, whereas the people who actually made a Bishop with the desire to help others and enjoyed the playstyle would still be around. I severely doubt there'd be any sort of drought if the ultimates were gimped.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Anyoneisgod - 2008-10-02
I have played A bishop and a Bowmaster and my thoughts are that Genesis as much as i was looking forward to it preped for it and was the leader of the first four bishops on my server to get it,after the novelty wore off i was not fulfilled by the class anymore i did enjoy the suport role i had to take in bossing but that was few and far between.Long and short of it,Genesis killed my bishop.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - LittlePrincess - 2008-10-02
I don't think it's any more broken than the NLs supper bossing ability and the NLs selling the death of a certian boss or selling leech at angero.
Anyway, it has a cool down: 1-2 seconds before you can cast again because you have to wait for the anamation to finish. And in the meantime you can't do anything (move, tele, heal skill, etc...)
Really the problem is the meso farmers. The only bishops & mages I know that sell leech sell it to get mesos because they don't have the mesos to train that way by themselves or with their freinds. So they sell leech until they do then train with friends until they run out of mesos again. The people who buy leech are supporting their ultimate spamming. If meso farmers were to all die out (probably impossible) then the selling of leech would not be so prevelent as it would not be so easy to lay hands on the amount of mesos required.
Anyway, bishops are definatly not a bossing class, the exp at bosses sucks as a bishop. NLs all say it rocks, and maybe if you can do damage maybe it does. Bishops (and mages) are good at mob training and suck at bosses. The exact opposite of NLs. And that brings perfect balance. Then there are several other classes that are at various stages in the middle (some closer to bossing some closer to mobs).
Anyone who thinks bishops are so great should make one. I think you will be of a different opinion when you are actually there.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Stereo - 2008-10-02
LittlePrincess Wrote:Anyway, it has a cool down: 1-2 seconds before you can cast again because you have to wait for the anamation to finish. And in the meantime you can't do anything (move, tele, heal skill, etc...)
Heaven's Hammer (maxed) has a 70 second cooldown, the same range & similar damage, but can never kill the monsters. It still takes 2-3 seconds to cast. Is that balanced?
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - DrRusty - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:Heaven's Hammer (maxed) has a 70 second cooldown, the same range & similar damage, but can never kill the monsters. It still takes 2-3 seconds to cast. Is that balanced?
It is when their single target damage far outweighs that of a bishop/mage.
Stereo Wrote:Lol, so the fact that the top 50 is almost entirely Bishops doesn't mean anything?
They're getting the highest %/hr by nearly double what any other class can get.
Bishops are by no means a bad boss class, either. Ever try bossing without Bishops? As a class who will only ever go to Horntail because they needed someone with Stance to be seduced while everybody else attacks, I'm just a bit envious of the Bishops getting HS, Bless, Heal, Dispel, Resurrect, Invincible, Elemental Resistance, Holy Shield, and Mystic Door.
Ever try bossing without an attacking class? Bishops are there for bosses for support, and that's it. They might train twice as fast as other classes, but they deal damage to bosses twice as slow. That's how the classes balance out.
Bishops have an edge over mages; its hard to argue against that, but comparing mages to the other classes is pretty cut and dry.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Kawasari Mimoto - 2008-10-02
Regarding those "NL" comments, I have to say that NLs aren't as broken as people makes it seem like.. Sure, DPS damage is pretty nice, but you have to calculate how much friggin Mesos it takes to even be useful and strong. The typical NL has what, a 15 attack SCG/BWG? And maybe a 57+ attack Scarab or 60+ Craven? Now, if you're talking about the elitist Night Lords, then they probably have 17+ attack SCG/BWG and maybe a gold-status Craven/Scarab. >_> But not all Night Lords are like that..
A Bishop doesn't actually need godly gear to train either, just efficient-gear. I've played on a lv 146 Bishop with only a:
-Zhelm
-9X mag attack Maple Shine Wand
-clean Bathrobe
-10 INT cape
And I've trained at Newties there, and I have to say, the EXP rate in comparison to my Night Lord is a hell lot better.. >_> Bishops still has the advantage. Hell, ever heard of stories where Bishops are the one KSing Night Lords at Skeles? And not the other way around? I think I made my point.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - FelixTM - 2008-10-02
Dervish Wrote:Before fourth jobs were ever conceived there were no problems finding Priests to level with. Right now, Bishops are like lawyers, a dime a dozen and only a handful of decent ones. If the ultimates were raped, all of the scrubby, useless Bishops who couldn't play their class anyway would quit, whereas the people who actually made a Bishop with the desire to help others and enjoyed the playstyle would still be around. I severely doubt there'd be any sort of drought if the ultimates were gimped.
I disagree. I often ran into problems finding a Priest to train with - more often than not. The main Priests that stayed around before 4th was announced already had their friends (usually elitist-based cliques or simply really close friends, whichever). There was a point where MS was getting really dead, due to people quitting until 4th job and the prospect of new, awesome skills.
When 4th was confirmed to come out in a month's time, suddenly TONS of people reappeared and TONS of new Priests starting appearing due to the knowledge of how great Genesis was going to be. Genesis itself created many new Priests/Bishops and gave many of the Priests/Bishops that quit a reason to continue and push on much farther.
Yeah, I can't deny Genesis also created countless worthless Bishops who suck hardcore at bossing. They can go sell leech; who cares. Genesis created many good Bishops and made several great Bishops return to MS, as well. If Genesis was removed, not only the crappy Bishops would quit. Just like before 4th job was announced, we'd start seeing a drop in all Bishops because many wouldn't see a point to keep leveling if they'd have to revert back to HS mules. And if they didn't quit completely, they'd simply come on to help boss - returning us to the problem of harder-to-find training partners.
Of course, most of what I said is already moot, anyways. Genesis will not be nerfed and definitely not removed. And even if it was, it created such a surplus of Bishops that even if half of them quit, we still wouldn't be at a loss for them.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - butterfλi - 2008-10-02
FelixTM Wrote:When 4th was confirmed to come out in a month's time, suddenly TONS of people reappeared and TONS of new Priests starting appearing due to the knowledge of how great Genesis was going to be.
around that time, i saw more crusaders and bowmasters than priests lol.
and i dont see why people dont complain about BMs and NLs being "omfggg theyre overpowered at bosses. thats totally imbalanced" but rather say that archmages being overpowered on the training field. it seems like its easier to place the imbalance blame on the smaller group of people; inexperienced zrunners at zak STILL do not allow archmages to use ultimates on the arms because it 'lags' when everybody knows that can be fixed by casting ultimates before zak is summoned so you dont lag.
and here people are saying archmages are overpowered on the training field. if you job is a thief or bowman and you train slow, hating magicians for getting exp 2 and 3 times faster than you, if you cant beat them, join them. ie party them.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Afrobean - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:Heaven's Hammer (maxed) has a 70 second cooldown, the same range & similar damage, but can never kill the monsters. It still takes 2-3 seconds to cast. Is that balanced?Paladins aren't AoE kings though.
One could draw similar parallels between Angel Ray and Triple Throw, but it would be absurd to suggest Angel Ray should be as effective as Triple Throw is. Just as it is absurd to suggest that another class should have an AoE as good as Magicians'.
Quote:Bishops have an edge over mages; its hard to argue against that, but comparing mages to the other classes is pretty cut and dry.No. Bishops do not have a built in advantage, aside from the meso cost. The advantage largely identified is circumstantial; Yes, Skele are weak to holy and nothing good is weak to Fire or Ice, but that's not an intrinsic property of Bishops. It's a flaw of the monster population, not a flaw of the class.
ps arguing that NL aren't broken because of the cost is a flawed concept... they cost so much because they're in high demand, and they're in high demand BECAUSE they are so powerful+effective. You can't say "look they cost so much so its not broken" when the only reason they cost so much is BECAUSE they are so strong.
pps butterfli brings up a good point. Sure, many of you aren't leeching off of Bishops, but you SURE AS pineapple wouldn't be as well off as you are right now if Bishops and, to a lesser degree, Mages weren't so capable grinders (that is, PARTY MEMBERS).
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Dervish - 2008-10-02
butterfli Wrote:and i dont see why people dont complain about BMs and NLs being "omfggg theyre overpowered at bosses. thats totally imbalanced" but rather say that archmages being overpowered on the training field.
It's because NLs and BMs and Heroes being great at bossing doesn't have an immediate effect on you, whereas a Mage/Bishop coming into your map and deciding they want it, does, especially when they can literally KS you out without effort.
Quote:it seems like its easier to place the imbalance blame on the smaller group of people; inexperienced zrunners at zak STILL do not allow archmages to use ultimates on the arms because it 'lags' when everybody knows that can be fixed by casting ultimates before zak is summoned so you dont lag.
That's just simple ignorance, but, in their defence, making arms a little bit faster isn't worth bringing along an Arch-Mage without better reason, anyway.
Quote:and here people are saying archmages are overpowered on the training field. if you job is a thief or bowman and you train slow, hating magicians for getting exp 2 and 3 times faster than you, if you cant beat them, join them. ie party them.
1: Any class that can train several times faster than all of the others is imbalanced and broken.
2: Any class that can effortlessly kick out every single other class on 99% of the maps in the game is imbalanced and broken.
3: It's not just thieves and archers that Mages/Bishops train faster than, it's everything.
4: Being able to party them doesn't fix the fact that it's broken. Are NLs broken too? Yes. Does that make the magician fourth jobs any less broken? No.