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+---- Thread: Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. (/showthread.php?tid=38058)
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - CarrionCrow - 2011-02-19
I hits me that Ninja Storm is much better now that it hits twice with Shadow Partner and has no real benefit to be maxed anymore. Then I looked at Ninja Ambush. The idea of it is a poison-like DoT that you can apply to the monster at all times, and on paper that sound kind of nice for bossing and maybe lionheart foes. Unfortunatly it really sucked balls in Tespia, but my NL there was weak and useless. So it would be really nice if someone who knows how to calculate and work with formulas could check how much each tick would do at max. Lets say that it is a rather funded NL or Shad that have 170 DEX and 2700 LUK with MW29. Weapon attack is around 170. Lets say STR is 80 if that is included in the formula. At max Ninja Ambush is Damage: 200% for 14 Sec. I think the tick is like one or two strikes per second or so. If you are a thief at high level and for some reason have a high level ambush, feel free to give your input as well regardless of gear.
A weak character would obviously have no use of Ninja ambush but maybe it would be nifty enough if you have serious gear. I fear the answer is that it is still useless, but I really want it to be otherwise.
Thx for your time.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - Alloy - 2011-02-19
CarrionCrow Wrote:I hits me that Ninja Storm is much better now that it hits twice with Shadow Partner and has no real benefit to be maxed anymore. Then I looked at Ninja Ambush. The idea of it is a poison-like DoT that you can apply to the monster at all times, and on paper that sound kind of nice for bossing and maybe lionheart foes. Unfortunatly it really sucked balls in Tespia, but my NL there was weak and useless. So it would be really nice if someone who knows how to calculate and work with formulas could check how much each tick would do at max. Lets say that it is a rather funded NL or Shad that have 170 DEX and 2700 LUK with MW29. Weapon attack is around 170. Lets say STR is 80 if that is included in the formula. At max Ninja Ambush is Damage: 200% for 14 Sec. I think the tick is like one or two strikes per second or so. If you are a thief at high level and for some reason have a high level ambush, feel free to give your input as well regardless of gear.
A weak character would obviously have no use of Ninja ambush but maybe it would be nifty enough if you have serious gear. I fear the answer is that it is still useless, but I really want it to be otherwise.
Thx for your time.
Let's see... The real question about DoT is if the time to use it is worth it at all. So, 200% for 14 seconds, at 2 times per second means it's 28 hits of 200%.
That means that, if the calculations are good enough, it's a 5600% hit every 14 seconds. Of course, the downside is no criticals, apparently, and if shadow partner actually adds up... Well, it seems like it's surprisingly good?
Does that DoT 3 second glitch affects this skill aswell?
EDIT: Ah wait, DoT had a different calculation overall... How would 100% DoT compare to the 100% from a normal hit?
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - CarrionCrow - 2011-02-19
All I really know is that the damage is set and that it does not critical. I had no summoning rocks in tespia, but I guess that it would not affect the damage.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - Kabanaw - 2011-02-19
DoT is based purely off your max range. And I'm fairly certain all DoT skills have a 1 second timer between ticks.
So taking your hypothetical stats, your max range for a shadower would be
1.3(4*2700+170+80)*170/100=24,421 * 2 = 48,421 damage, meaning an extra 48,421 DPS at max. Mind you, all DoT skills are bugged right now in GMS, and their duration is only as long as level 1 of the skill.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - CarrionCrow - 2011-02-19
So, around 50k per second. Sounds roughly like Venom, only Venom needs no additional slow ass skill to activate. Also if ambush suffers from the same duration bug, and I'm sure it does, then it is beyond useless. Thanks for helping to set in stone what I already knew but did not want to accept. xD
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-02-19
The biggest problem with DoT skills now is that they have practically no room in training. Enemies die way too fast before Venom can even last its full duration. Therefore, the only beneficial usage for Venom was at bossing instead. I imagine the same will occur for Ninja Ambush.
However, from what I can gather, Ninja Ambush may be more difficult set up at bosses for NL's since it requires NL's to be dead center of where you want the Ninja Ambush to trigger. Often times, NL's touching bosses = death unless you've HP washed yourself to oblivion. For Shadowers, Ninja Ambush may be more optimal if the DoT duration wasn't bugged. Provided that this gets fixed in the future, it will deal quadruple the Shadower's max damage range every second for 14 seconds provided that the Shadower has maxed Ninja Ambush and that it ticks twice every second.
It would be a nice addition to DPS, but looking at the Shadower's 4th skillset, there really aren't any skills worth sacrificing for Ninja Ambush with the exception of Taunt and Hero's Will. Hero's Will is great for Shadowers since Shadowers make great seduce mules. Taunt has been proven to work better for training Shadowers (let's face it, there aren't enough bosses in the game for you to be training on all day). I would say that neither of these skills are worth passing up for maxing Ninja Ambush. The only real counter argument I may have for this is that Taunt won't work on Lionheart Castle mobs due to their boss flags. However, by the time a Shadower starts raising Ninja Ambush, Lionheart's beefiest mob, the Castle Golem, will still go down in seconds, not warranting it necessary to Ninja Ambush.
The other problem that I foresee with Ninja Ambush when used with NL's is that if the damage calculation's anything like Venom, then this will discount the stars in the maximum damage equation. Venom's calculated without the NL's stars factored in. This puts the NL's Ninja Ambush damage anywhere from 10 to 30 weapon attack backwards. That's a huge hit for NL's as it certainly isn't easy anymore to scrounge up weapon attack for that class especially to 170 total without stars. Provided you have a clean VIP claw perfectly scrolled (109 weapon attack), max cygnus blessing (109 + 24 = 133), a 10 attack Facestompers (143), a 10 attack belt (153), you'll need a 17+ attack glove to total to 170 weapon attack before stars. At that point and by the time you start maxing Ninja Ambush, Triple Throw itself will probably deal way more damage in one strike to cover 14 seconds quadruple a nerfed maximum range than walking up to melee-range to a boss (and risking death) and walking back.
So, where does this leave us? In order to max Ninja Ambush, NL's will have to drop Ninja Storm, Taunt, and probably some points off of Hero's Will. While I know many NL's I've talked to say they only have one point in Will, I find it much safer to have it maxed, especially for a fragile class like an NL. The argument for Taunt is the same as the Shadower's. This leaves Ninja Storm to sacrifice points from. Now, Ninja Storm's a utility based skill allowing the NL to (finally) be able to knockback enemies around it. This skill has been rendered near useless through BigBang as NL's no longer need a minimum distance range to throw its stars. The upside is, it can still KB enemies farther than individually throwing stars to KB a group of enemies. KB is always useful, and when maxed, Ninja Storm provides 100% KB allowing for better utility. The question of whether or not NL's will have to use KB during training is dependent on the way each NL trains, meaning there's the possibility that Storm will be useless for some of them and better to max out Ambush. But since Ambush isn't needed for training........ You get the picture.
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What Nexon should have done with Ninja Ambush was turn it into an ultimate where ninjas suddenly appear from under the floorboards and from inside kitchen cabinets to throw a flurry of knives at every enemy on the screen, wail on a guitar, and then disappear (Cooldown 30 seconds).
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - CarrionCrow - 2011-02-19
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Snip.Just a minor correction, Ninja Ambush fires just like Ninja Storm, no need to be inside a boss or anything.
I always took for granted Venom worked based off of your range now, I had no idea it did not factor in star attack. I asume you have confirmed that fact and are not just guessing.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - Takebacker - 2011-02-19
What kind of crazy ass range are you using to say that golems will go down in SECONDS? I don't care how funded the strongest shadower is, this doesn't matter to the average player nor will ambush benefit them LESS because they're doing less damage.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-02-19
Yeah, I've calculated the damage with a subi and fury. The damage from venom is the same from both. Yet, when you punch in the numbers, it's still lower than your max damage range with the subi. When I tally'd up what my max range would be without the stars, the numbers fit.
EDIT: Castle Golems have a total HP of roughly 12.5m. That's nothing more than half of a Papulatus whom already goes down in seconds even to normal average players.
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - Devil - 2011-02-19
Before you ppl continue, Ninja Ambush is not related to your attack range, it's the same old useless crappy skill like it was pre-BB. Nothing changed about it.
The damage it will do at max level with 8.000 attack range is about 4k~6k per second, last time I saw someone use it at max lvl...
So it's pretty much a waste of SP's. Even at lionheart...
The damage is related mostly to the skill lvl itself, with differences between lvl1~10 / lvl11~20 / lvl21~30 giving a higher bonus multiplier per 10 lvls (like 1x / 2x / 3x ish).
Looking for help to bury or redeem Ninja Ambush for good. - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-02-19
Thanks for the confirmation, Devil. Well then, that settles it. Don't pump Ninja Ambush.