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Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Printable Version

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Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Anonymous Moose - 2011-01-31

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-usa-healthcare-ruling-idUSTRE70U6RY20110131?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews
 Spoiler

I say the 10th Amendment is all you need to prove this bill was unconstitutional, but this works too.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Erebus - 2011-02-01

Anything actually going to be done or is this like the same thing with the judge saying gay marriage was unconstitutional.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

Actually the bill does create a double standard and a lose-lose situation...

Either we buy health care or we pay a penalty. Either way we have to buy something. There is no opt out and not pay.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Eos - 2011-02-01

Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:There is no opt out and not pay.

You are under-informed.
Quote:There are several reasons why an individual could claim exemption, being a member of a religion that does not believe in insurance is one of them. Islam is one of those religions. Muslims believe that health insurance is˜haraam”, or forbidden; because they liken the ambiguity and probability of insurance to gambling. This belief excludes them from any of the requirements, mandates, or penalties set forth in the bill. Other excluded groups include Amish, American Indians, and Christian Scientists.



Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - sicnarf - 2011-02-01

I liked the headline on Fark for this one.

Obamacare to become more powerful than you could possibly imagine


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

Religious reasons anymore are losing more and more power. The government could honestly care less what faith or religion you are. As long as they can get their money from you some way, they'll find a way to do it.

It's like one of those crafty ingenious car thieves... if they want the car bad enough, they'll find a way to steal it from you even if you think it's immune to being stolen.

What they could do as an alternative would be kick out Obama-Care, allow insurance companies to compete and operate cross-country instead of localized to their state, and then offer insurance companies tax breaks for charity cases they take on per year, offer doctors and hospitals tax breaks and better malpractice insurance benefits for their services to reduce health care costs, and find a way to make the deductibles for people better without adding costs or reducing coverage.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Anonymous Moose - 2011-02-01

Eosian Wrote:You are under-informed.

IIRC, Obamacare does not allow for religious exceptions. If I'm wrong, please point out where it makes the exception. If I am right, it would take a lengthy court battle to allow for religious exceptions.
Also, a major problem with religious exceptions is that they only recognize certain religions and religious beliefs. Then we still have the issue of people who have non-religious reasons to not get insurance.

Also, Erebus, I dont believe a federal judge has ever ruled Gay Marriage to be unconstitutional (the constitution doesnt even cover marriage). Although I am aware of a Californian Judge overturning a ban on Gay Marrirage, because the ban was illegal according to the State's Constitution.

Edit: My mistake, certain religious exceptions are in the bill.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Eos - 2011-02-01

Anonymous Moose Wrote:IIRC, Obamacare does not allow for religious exceptions. If I'm wrong, please point out where it makes the exception.

Well let's see...

http://www.ohiofreepress.com/financial/2010/religious-exemption-obamacare-mandate/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2425868/posts
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=137221

Or you know, actually looking at the text and using CTRL-F and the magic word "religious"...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

I have far more respect and patience for people who actually take the time to look at facts before speaking their "thoughts" on an issue. Particularly on subjects that are readily available and far from obscure.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Anonymous Moose - 2011-02-01

Eosian Wrote:Well let's see...

http://www.ohiofreepress.com/financial/2010/religious-exemption-obamacare-mandate/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/exemptions.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2425868/posts
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=137221

Or you know, actually looking at the text and using CTRL-F and the magic word "religious"...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

I have far more respect and patience for people who actually take the time to look at facts before speaking their "thoughts" on an issue. Particularly on subjects that are readily available and far from obscure.

Sorry for not wanting to open up the bill (which the PDF file takes a lot of time to load on this crappy computer) and not wanting to use other news sources (many news sources have a history of lying about Obamacare). You dont need to attack people over such minor issues. I made it quite clear that I was uncertain.

Also, according to many of your sources, many religions would still have issues being exempt from Obamacare. And what about people who dont have a religious reason to not participate? There are still far too many problems with Obamacare. Allowing a few people can be exempt wont solve a thing.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

Where the pineapple is section 1402(g)(1)? Not finding it... reference to it was made, but the pomegranate Document Index didn't actually say what pineappling page it was on.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Eos - 2011-02-01

Anonymous Moose Wrote:Also, according to many of your sources, many religions would still have issues being exempt from Obamacare. And what about people who dont have a religious reason to not participate? There are still far too many problems with Obamacare. Allowing a few people can be exempt wont solve a thing.

The flaws of Obamacare itself were not the point here, or rather the misinformation regarding the actual flaws is.
Jamie repeated the lie that it was compulsory for everyone when it was not, ever.

I object to the interjection of easily proven falsehoods into what is allegedly intended to be a serious discussion, since a conversation based on false precepts has no foundation on which to build understanding.

You can't go about trying to fix something when you don't even understand the ways in which it is broken.

Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:Where the pineapple is section 1402(g)(1)? Not finding it... reference to it was made, but the pomegranate Document Index didn't actually say what pineappling page it was on.

That would be because it's in a different document entirely, being a reference to the US code, not an item within the bill itself.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00001402----000-.html

(g) Members of certain religious faiths


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

Quote:Such exemption may be granted only if the application contains or is accompanied by— (A) such evidence of such individual’s membership in, and adherence to the tenets or teachings of, the sect or division thereof as the Secretary may require for purposes of determining such individual’s compliance with the preceding sentence, and
(B) his waiver of all benefits and other payments under titles II and XVIII of the Social Security Act on the basis of his wages and self-employment income as well as all such benefits and other payments to him on the basis of the wages and self-employment income of any other person, and only if the Commissioner of Social Security finds that—

© such sect or division thereof has the established tenets or teachings referred to in the preceding sentence,
(D) it is the practice, and has been for a period of time which he deems to be substantial, for members of such sect or division thereof to make provision for their dependent members which in his judgment is reasonable in view of their general level of living, and
(E) such sect or division thereof has been in existence at all times since December 31, 1950.
'

Wait, what? Oh I get it!!! You mean this...

[video=hulu;lze44i2B9Tl3-rhOv5JxUQ]http://www.hulu.com/watch/50420/family-guy-time-to-pay-up[/video]

and if we still don't pay up...

[video=hulu;7f0j3hm-m7QYSNLXARM7Xg]http://www.hulu.com/watch/50394/family-guy-persuasive-action[/video]

As humorous as that may be, it feels like the grim reality of what the government wants to do to get what they feel we owe them. Sadly enough.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Moonlapse - 2011-02-01

So what exactly is the argument saying that this does not violate the 10th amendment?


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Anonymous Moose - 2011-02-01

Eosian Wrote:The flaws of Obamacare itself were not the point here, or rather the misinformation regarding the actual flaws is.
Jamie repeated the lie that it was compulsory for everyone when it was not, ever.

I object to the interjection of easily proven falsehoods into what is allegedly intended to be a serious discussion, since a conversation based on false precepts has no foundation on which to build understanding.

You can't go about trying to fix something when you don't even understand the ways in which it is broken.



That would be because it's in a different document entirely, being a reference to the US code, not an item within the bill itself.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00001402----000-.html

(g) Members of certain religious faiths

And the mistake has been corrected. Let's now move onto the topic at hand. We dont need to waste forum space over a minor error.

And Moonphase, I'd like to hear that arguement too.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

Government: The Bill of Rights doesn't apply any more.
Citizen: But it's part of the constitution.
Government: Not how we interpret it as a living breathing document.

There are way better things that could have been done other than ObamaCare... however, I don't feel supporting a free program using tax money is the best solution. It's still not free and we all still pay for if we use it or not.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Anonymous Moose - 2011-02-01

Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:Government: The Bill of Rights doesn't apply any more.
Citizen: But it's part of the constitution.
Government: Not how we interpret it as a living breathing document.

There are way better things that could have been done other than ObamaCare... however, I don't feel supporting a free program using tax money is the best solution. It's still not free and we all still pay for if we use it or not.

But didn't Obama promise to uphold the constitution? Unlike Bush that used it like toilet paper?
Got to love those lying polititians.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

You used a term twice in one sentence...

Lying politician.

Lying and politician have the same meaning.

Obama has done stuff far worse than Bush has. If he hasn't wiped his butt with the constitution, he's down right already flushed it into the sewer...

[video=youtube;Vg_1Llo9k0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg_1Llo9k0k[/video]

In the end... if it's ruled Unconstitutional... we have one less tax to pay. That might be a good thing...


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Moonlapse - 2011-02-01

EDIT: Ignore this post.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Alloy - 2011-02-01

It's ridiculous how AMERICANS claim to be so awesome they can save the world by freeing people from mass destruction weapons, starting wars, while, when really needed, they can't even pay A BIT MORE to help ill people that can't pay their treatment ON THEIR OWN DAMNED COUNTRY.

If you ask me, that shows it's a statistically arrogant country.


Yet another Federal Judge rules Obamacare Unconstitutional. - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-01

I'm waiting until the Satanists chime in saying the 1950 cut off year for the recognition of a founded religion is unconstitutional as their religion was officially founded in the 1960s... that's when it'll get ugly. I wonder how the Atheists and Nihilists feel about this one...