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Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Erebus - 2011-01-23
With the job market the way it is in America people are looking to blame their problem on something and though it's not brought up as much as today Illegal immigrants can contribute to that problem.
Now i personally don't care (kind of doubt an illegal immigrant is going to take the software engineering job I get after college away from me) but people have their own grief with it.
However a lot of people say it's wrong because it's not "American", they of course say this forgetting we're a (mixed) capitalistic economy with the basic goal of trying to make the most money.
With that in mind how do you feel about companies that higher illegal immigrants for the sake of business, granted it's wrong according to the law but is it "un-american"?
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Prosser - 2011-01-23
Illegal immigrants don't move in to live WITH you, they want to live LIKE you and this is not the case for just America so how is it 'un-american'? All over the globe there are companies that hire illegal immigrants because due to their legality. They can be made to work under the minimum wage.
I cant really blame them for trying to have a better life but the world just isn't fair and we have to enforce that unfortunately.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Anonymous Moose - 2011-01-23
The first problem problem with illegal immigrants is that the governmetn practically pays them to come here. Hospitals cant refuse to treat them, and they can just walk away without paying. On top of that little issue, HR3200 specifically states that it will cover illegal immigrants and that they are not required to pay a cent for it. They work under the table and they do take away our jobs that dont require a college education (and yes, many Americans do want these jobs). Some do say that illegal immigrants do pay into social services, but the problem is that they use said social services far more than an average American and the average American that doesnt work under the table will pay far more in taxes.
Then there is a security issue. If Immigrants are coming into the country illegally, rather than legally, then we will have absolutely no idea who came into this country. Where they terrorists? Where they bringing in deadly diseases?Most are probably just average Mexicans, but the possibility that something dangerous could easily cross the boarder is a fear we should not have to live with.
As a personal note, I dont consider "terrorism" and diseases like H1N1 a threat (more people per year win the lottery, get struck by lightning, etc. than die from those things). I do however consider Mexican Drug Cartels that have been invading America a serious threat.
In my opinion, legal immigrants are fine. They had enough respect for our country to come in the legal way. Illegal immigrants can just leave and come back when they learn to respect our rules and regulations.
Edit: Companies hiring illegal immigrants is illegal partially because of several forms of fraud a company must commit to hire undocumented workers - not just for the fact that the illegal immigrants are here illegally.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Felicitates - 2011-01-23
[COLOR="Magenta"]My thoughts on this issue? Essentially I feel like this is America's fault to begin with. If you have the patience, read this personal account:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B5Qc21tJJvWJOTFjNGJiMDEtYTcxZi00ZWFiLWIzNDItOTIyMDAzZjc0MTc4&hl=en
It really changed my view on the entire issue, especially with how the ICE's ultimate goal is to just be boosting numbers instead of trying to correct this problem.
[/COLOR]
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Cancambo - 2011-01-23
I think we should make legal immigration easier in order to encourage people taking the legal route into this country. There is no gain in putting up really strict immigration standards if they are never going to be followed, and we have to cater to illegals anyway.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - MasPan - 2011-01-23
Chicken or the egg: which came first, low-paying jobs that nobody else would take (drawing employers to hire illegal immigrants) or a flood of illegal immigrants willing to work for low pay? Just because there's a correlation doesn't mean the causation works the way you think it does.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Mute - 2011-01-23
Cancambo Wrote:I think we should make legal immigration easier in order to encourage people taking the legal route into this country. There is no gain in putting up really strict immigration standards if they are never going to be followed, and we have to cater to illegals anyway.
This, and the prime thing people forget...
they are illegal, they shouldn't bet getting any special treatment I feel until they are legal citizens.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Anonymous Moose - 2011-01-23
MasPan Wrote:Chicken or the egg: which came first, low-paying jobs that nobody else would take (drawing employers to hire illegal immigrants) or a flood of illegal immigrants willing to work for low pay? Just because there's a correlation doesn't mean the causation works the way you think it does.
I didnt know that there where jobs that Americans completely refuse to do. If you look past the stereotypes, you'd see that many Americans do some pretty low and dirty work in this country.
In terms of legal immigration, I could agree with lowering the costs (I tend to agree with lowering almost any legal fee) and obviously the government needs to learn to work faster, but I beleive the requirements and process are fine.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Eos - 2011-01-23
Mute Wrote:This, and the prime thing people forget...
they are illegal, they shouldn't bet getting any special treatment I feel until they are legal citizens.
There should be no such thing as an illegal immigrant. You're here, document you and tax you. pineapple how you got here or why. Screw trying to hunt you down and deport you until you sneak in a week later.
America is an entire country of immigrants, we should stop trying to villify people because our ancestors got here before them.
We have far more pressing matters in society than trying to reject people who want to be a productive part of it.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Alley - 2011-01-24
Eosian Wrote:There should be no such thing as an illegal immigrant. You're here, document you and tax you. pineapple how you got here or why. Screw trying to hunt you down and deport you until you sneak in a week later.
America is an entire country of immigrants, we should stop trying to villify people because our ancestors got here before them.
We have far more pressing matters in society than trying to reject people who want to be a productive part of it.
While I agree with you for the most part, you can't just make everyone legal. A lot of the illegal immigrants that make it to the U.S are in fact fleeing the law from their native countries. There has to be some sort of a faster screening process.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Eos - 2011-01-24
Alley Wrote:A lot of the illegal immigrants that make it to the U.S are in fact fleeing the law from their native countries.
This statement strikes me as absurd, provide references.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Alley - 2011-01-24
Eosian Wrote:This statement strikes me as absurd, provide references.
Well it is pretty much a given. Where there is a chance to run from the law, there will always be abusers. Sad but true.
Maybe I should rephrase a lot to some.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Moonlapse - 2011-01-24
Legalizing all illegal immigrants at once would be interesting. It would mean complete dominance for the democrats (which is why they're so big on amnesty I think). It would be interesting to see how a hispanic majority in this country would affect the country's overall views on key social issues.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Loose - 2011-01-24
Alley Wrote:A lot of the illegal immigrants that make it to the U.S are in fact fleeing the law from their native countries.lolwut?
Most of them come to US in a pursuit of a better life, because where they were before, they can't make enough money to survive on the essentials. It's the US or bust for most of them.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Anonymous Moose - 2011-01-24
Eosian Wrote:There should be no such thing as an illegal immigrant. You're here, document you and tax you. pineapple how you got here or why. Screw trying to hunt you down and deport you until you sneak in a week later.
America is an entire country of immigrants, we should stop trying to villify people because our ancestors got here before them.
We have far more pressing matters in society than trying to reject people who want to be a productive part of it.
Actually, I wouldnt say we are a nation of immigrants as many of us are born here. Many of us are native to this land as far as I'm concerned.
I believe the original intent of the legal processes for immigration included properly documenting the immigrants, along with making sure the immigrants came in good health and were not wanted criminals or had other major issues associated with them. I also believe we do need regulation on how people enter the country partially because with a lack of border patrol, we will have several people under the radar regardless of the circumstances, and even though several presidents in the past have offered amnesty and citizenship to illegal immigrants, many still refuse citizenship because of all the benefits of being illegal.
Edit: And while there are some people that flee their countries for evading the law, that isnt the major reason people illegally cross the border. Its mostly to take advantage of what our country has to offer. I just wish we would stop offering so many benefits to those that disrespect our laws and I wish American citizens didnt have to pay for them.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Solarboy - 2011-01-24
Alley Wrote:Well it is pretty much a given. Where there is a chance to run from the law, there will always be abusers. Sad but true.
Maybe I should rephrase a lot to some.
Excuse me, but that is completly wrong, most of them go to pursue a better life for their families.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Alex123123 - 2011-01-24
Eosian Wrote:There should be no such thing as an illegal immigrant. You're here, document you and tax you. pineapple how you got here or why. Screw trying to hunt you down and deport you until you sneak in a week later.
America is an entire country of immigrants, we should stop trying to villify people because our ancestors got here before them.
We have far more pressing matters in society than trying to reject people who want to be a productive part of it.
Sounds like a nice ideal, but will it work in reality?
Open free borders and you will be asking for a monumental flood of people entering the US. I'm scarcely informed in the current situations the US is passing through so instead of talking without any kind of experience or concrete knowledge, I will ask you or anyone else who is well informed about such matters.
Do you believe the US will be able to support a new flood of immigrants, the majority of them in total poverty and maybe even with poor or without any education at all? What about the economy? Resources?
I mean seriously, there are a lot of illegal immigrants and those are the ones that dare risk their lives. Just imagine the number of people that want to enter the US but are unable to do so/do not dare to take those risks.
As for OP, I believe hiring illegals is wrong, period. The key fault lies on the companies though, I mean, most illegals willing to take any jobs at minimum wages are obviously desperate and attempting to improve their lives. Something I believe is a very commendable act compared to those who just let themselves rot in misery and inaction (or opt to commit murder and thievery to earn their living). Sadly laws are laws, and the US is another country like any other, not some kind of world savior. So eh...
I wouldn't know about it being "Un -American" though. You'll need to define that one for me.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Eos - 2011-01-24
Alex123123 Wrote:Sounds like a nice ideal, but will it work in reality?
Does the current reality work any better?
Most of the people who have the means to try to come here do so, regardless. I've yet to see any proof of this hidden flux of people who will suddenly pour in from all the countries of the world.
If they're too poor to sustain themselves here they're certainly not going to be able to travel here unless they already have another means by which they could do so.
We could much better use the resources we waste trying to keep them out on making them productive citizens if they can get here - Teaching them our language and developing them for a decent trade.
I've often heard the excuse that if we did this people would come here, get educated on our dime, then go back home and support their original country with skills we gave them, but the hypocrisy of that is that today we're bringing people in on Visa's, training them, educating them and then sending them home when their Visa's expire regardless of whether they want to stay or not. We're criminalizing their presence here when they want to contribute to our society. That's just idiotic.
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Anonymous Moose - 2011-01-24
Eosian Wrote:Does the current reality work any better?Obviously the current "reality" isnt working, but that might be partially because the Federal government is completely refusing to enforce immigration law and is blocking the states from attempting to enforce their own similar laws.
Most of the people who have the means to try to come here do so, regardless. I've yet to see any proof of this hidden flux of people who will suddenly pour in from all the countries of the world.
If they're too poor to sustain themselves here they're certainly not going to be able to travel here unless they already have another means by which they could do so.
We could much better use the resources we waste trying to keep them out on making them productive citizens if they can get here - Teaching them our language and developing them for a decent trade.
I've often heard the excuse that if we did this people would come here, get educated on our dime, then go back home and support their original country with skills we gave them, but the hypocrisy of that is that today we're bringing people in on Visa's, training them, educating them and then sending them home when their Visa's expire regardless of whether they want to stay or not. We're criminalizing their presence here when they want to contribute to our society. That's just idiotic.
And I'd rather not spend our tax dollars and resources on illegal immigrants that have dont seem to respect our laws or culture. We need to worry about ourselves and our own issues first, and considering the economic situation of the US, we definitly cant support more illegal immigrants.
And there is a major difference between people coming here on a Visa to study and illegal immigrants. For one, illegal immigrants never asked us for permission to use our resources. No matter how you look at it, its rude to march onto someone else's property and taking advantage of our resources. Second, illegal immigrants are often being - in a way- paid by the government to stay here through forms of welfare, schooling for their children, etc. While the immigrant on a Visa is often paying to to study here. Once again, there is a major difference between illegals that practically steal our resources, and the immigrants that are paying for them.
Edit: I should add that it wont be so simple to make all illegal immigrants legal. Even if you decriminalized illegal immigration, the issues of undocumented workers would remain because of all the benefits of working under the table and being above the law. Part of the reason for the immigration process is to make sure all immigrants are documented and on the same level (or at least close enough to work and function in America) as anyone else in America.
Also, I did mention that several presidents throughout history have offered amnesty to illegals, but few want that. There are too many benefits to breaking the law in this country: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=260
Illegal Immigrants and Capitalism - Eos - 2011-01-24
Anonymous Moose Wrote:And I'd rather not spend our tax dollars and resources on illegal immigrants that have dont seem to respect our laws or culture. We need to worry about ourselves and our own issues first, and considering the economic situation of the US, we definitly cant support more illegal immigrants.
Can you prove that having more people coming here and working and spending wouldn't be exactly what we need to stimulate our economy rather than stagnate it because of the current policy?
Euopean countries should be able to provide us more than enough data on immigration policies and how they impact economy, being as open as they are and having so many neighbors and easy traveling between country to country.
Now if you want to concern yourself with wasted money and resources that could better be used by our own people I'd focus on all the aid we send to other nations for issues we still have at home instead of on what we lose on our neighbors. I'm also curious what welfare programs you know of that are open to illegals because all the ones I'm aware of end in deportation when their lack of citizenship is identified.