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+---- Thread: Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage (/showthread.php?tid=36597)
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Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Strill - 2011-01-20
I was running the numbers for Chain Lightning spam and Angel Ray spam post chaos patch and I found some pretty surprising conclusions.
Chain Lightning: 850% damage, +15% crit, +50% damage (ele amp)
Angel Ray: 900% damage, +50% crit (Holy Focus)
So after Ele Amp, Chain Lightning deals 1275% damage.
Now for critical and mastery.
45% of the time, Angel Ray will deal normal damage of 75%~100%
55% of the time, Angel Ray will deal critical damage of 90%~150%
Angel Ray damage after critical = .45*(.75*9 + 1*9)/2 + .55*(.9*9 + 1.5*9)/2 = 948.38%
80% of the time, Chain Lightning will deal normal damage of 75%~100%
20% of the time, Chain Lightning will deal critical damage of 90%~150%
Chain Lightning damage after critical = .8*(.75*12.75 + 1*12.75)/2 + .2*(.9*12.75 + 1.5*12.75)/2 = 1198.50%
Now for Spell Booster. Chain Lightning attacks once every 0.68 seconds. Angel ray once every .81 seconds.
Chain Lightning damage per second: 1198.5%/.68 = 1762.50%
Angel Ray damage per second: 948.38%/.81 = 1170.84%
So if you compare the two, Chain Lightning deals 1762.50%/1170.84% = 50.5% more damage.
But that's just for a single target. Let's compare them at mobbing.
Chain Lightning hits up to three targets. The first for 100%, the second 90%, the third 80%.
Angel Ray hits four targets for full damage.
Against four or more targets, Angel Ray deals: 1170.84*4 = 4683.36% DPS
Against four or more targets, Chain Lightning deals: 1762.50%*(1+.9+.8) = 4758.75% DPS
With Chain Lightning dealing a minuscule 1.6% more DPS.
How do you feel about this? Bishops are apparently just as good at training as Archmages, yet also get Holy Symbol's bonus EXP. I'm thinking Holy Symbol needs to be removed.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Takebacker - 2011-01-20
Now factor in DoT and the fact that CL's bounce range is far greater than rays splash range and we have a thread.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Taiketo - 2011-01-20
Why is your chain lightning damage after critical lower than your chain lightning damage before critical?
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Locked - 2011-01-20
If Holy Symbol is removed, what reason would there be to make a bishop? If their arch mage counterparts can kill faster, then let them get more exp per monster to compensate.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Strill - 2011-01-20
Taiketo Wrote:Why is your chain lightning damage after critical lower than your chain lightning damage before critical?
I factored in mastery as well. Noted in OP.
Locked Wrote:If Holy Symbol is removed, what reason would there be to make a bishop? If their arch mage counterparts can kill faster, then let them get more exp per monster to compensate.
They can't kill faster. Chain Lightning deals the same dps as Angel Ray against 4 or more targets as I demonstrated in the OP.
Quote:Now factor in DoT and the fact that CL's bounce range is far greater than rays splash range and we have a thread.DoT? You mean Ice Demon? Are you honestly trying to say that Archmages train with Ice Demon?
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Takebacker - 2011-01-20
Strill Wrote:DoT? You mean Ice Demon? Are you honestly trying to say that Archmages train with Ice Demon?
Are you honestly trying to only compare training situations?
The fastest method of training in LHC is killing boss monsters you know.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Strill - 2011-01-20
Takebacker Wrote:Are you honestly trying to only compare training situations?Ya, pretty much. That is what I said in the OP isn't it?
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Takebacker - 2011-01-20
Strill Wrote:Ya, pretty much. That is what I said in the OP isn't it?
Way to completely ignore my other statement. These calculations are post chaos. Please factor in skills that are actually very significant for both training and bossing after this update.
Calculating damage is always done as a measure of bossing potential, not training, as training is variable in more ways than just how much DPS you are doing. These calculations also do not suggest that bishops have some kind of advantage over arch mages because of holy symbol simply because their raw damage is not enough to beat arch mages minus elemental affinities that the monster may have.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Strill - 2011-01-20
Takebacker Wrote:Way to completely ignore my other statement. These calculations are post chaos. Please factor in skills that are actually very significant for both training and bossing after this update.I never said anything about bossing. I explicitly said TRAINING. And what skills would be relevant for that? Ice Demon isn't used for training. Bahamut beats the crap out of Elquines. They both have Inifinity. They both have Buff Mastery. Mana Reflector is irrelevant. Blizzard deals 8% more damage than Genesis from first hit, and a total of 165% more damage if allowed to tick for 10 seconds, assuming they fix the DoT so I suppose that makes some difference but I honestly still don't think it makes up for a +50% exp boost.
Quote: Calculating damage is always done as a measure of bossing potential, not training, as training is variable in more ways than just how much DPS you are doing. These calculations also do not suggest that bishops have some kind of advantage over arch mages because of holy symbol simply because their raw damage is not enough to beat arch mages.Even if training is variable, how would it be different between Archmages and Bishops? I'm not measuring training speed, I'm just comparing training between I/Ls and Bishops.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Corn - 2011-01-20
Strill Wrote:I never said anything about bossing. I explicitly said TRAINING.
My dear chap, before Takebacker goes ballistic and cracks nuts with your head, I'll like to point to you what he said, as it isn't evidentially getting through your head.
Takebacker Wrote:The fastest method of training in LHC is killing boss monsters you know.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Takebacker - 2011-01-20
Strill Wrote:Even if training is variable, how would it be different between Archmages and Bishops? I'm not measuring training speed, I'm just comparing training between I/Ls and Bishops.
The fact that mobs are naturally spread out and that mages do not have mob grouping skills. CL having more bounce range than AR splash range would make them train faster in this way.
You're "not comparing training speed", but you're still "comparing training differences"? You're weird. o.o
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Kabanaw - 2011-01-20
Is Angel Ray's range still 120%? Because that's a pretty tiny range. If we're talking regular mob training, where mobs die in 2-3 hits, then the I/L will win out because he can kill in a larger range.
And if we're talking LHC training, I/Ls still win out because mobs are usually 2-3 big and DOT is actually a factor there.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Chilly - 2011-01-20
I would be a fool to not have a Bishop in my party at LHC if one is readily available. Above that, to deny myself HS only to deny her HS merely because I feel inadequate that she gets HS everywhere while I only get a hypothetical 1.6% DPS, no thanks.
While I see where you are going with this I would have to agree with others already posting, if training not at LHC, specifically at ToT, the arcing of CL cannot be compared with AR's splash; the mobs aren't close enough together from what I've witnessed, though I'm sure there will be instances that a mob would congregate successfully for the equivalence in damage. From what I and many have seen, mobs in LHC usually don't exceed three. However, I will (sort of) side with OP or at least against AR splash critics and point out that at LHC a mob of mob will likely be alive long enough and will have been pushed such that they are close enough for splash to occur easily negating a arc > splash argument in this specific instance.
Edit:
And now since you've got the wheels turning and the interest piqued, I have to add more to a topic I'd rather have left alone for a few more months. I went through the Chaos skills thread just for a gander to fact check the numbers being thrown around the thread and noticed that Bahamut was moved to 600% and Elquines was kept at 330%. Even with an ice-weakness caused by ID (not applicable at LHC) that only moves it to 495%. And that got me annoyed, but not annoyed angry which I'm sure someone will be, but annoyed jelly. But not at Bishops, DoT would equilibrate the damage difference ~90% DPS from better Bahamut ~100%* for DoT from an L/I's ID. This ~12% closeness in damage still does not incur a reaction to a Bishop getting bonuses of Heal and HS, for me they just are not that big of a deal, especially if I am getting pieces of the action (see first statement).
I did, however, eat the jelly sandwich made by F/P's. While Castle Golems don't provide much of an appetizing sammich, if you think about a F/P training at the Birdmen or Bear x Pang or Sunburned Deer I can only imagine the DPS difference made by Fire-weak, Ice-strong mobs especially considering the F/P prominence in preliminary numbers regarding their improved DoT and Paralyze. Definitely jelly.
*While I'm at it, I remember that DoT was affected my a mob's elemental strength and weakness because someone in Tespia proved it. I'll go ahead and guess that Elemental Reset will also allow for neutral DoT so my 100% ID at ice-strong LHC stands. However, I wonder if this got lost somewhere in the BB port from Tespia to main servers because I don't appear to be getting a 1.5X increase for DoT at ice-weak currently, am I to chalk it up to more Nexon mistakes? And if this issue? is resolved this might just slather more jelly everywhere...things might get a bit messy.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - JoeTang - 2011-01-21
An attack that hits three targets does less damage to four targets than an attack that hits four targets. Big surprise. You might as well complain about Fire-Poison doing more damage than Ice-Lightning since they can hit more targets and DoT too. And just so you know, Ice Demon does more damage than either on mobs of six, so it's not useless, and if the monster is neutral, it does more damage on mobs of four. And if you're going to ignore range, might as well throw in Teleport Mastery too since that's a gigantic boost with Chain Lightning's speed.
You should do extra damage to elemental weakness with your damage over time. Turn off elemental reset and make sure you're attacking something you're strong against?
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Hanabira.Kage - 2011-01-21
Angel Ray: 120% range. Wow, that's SUCH a HUGE range. 
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Strill - 2011-01-21
Hanabira.Kage Wrote:Angel Ray: 120% range. Wow, that's SUCH a HUGE range.
I understood that 120% was the AoE range, not the projectile range.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Shidoshi - 2011-01-21
nvm
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Chilly - 2011-01-21
JoeTang Wrote:You should do extra damage to elemental weakness with your damage over time. Turn off elemental reset and make sure you're attacking something you're strong against?
I'll test again on some other mobs tomorrow, but I ran down a Kacchuu Musha and an Anego today and their DoT values were too similar to account for any kind of bonus on the ice-weak Kacchuu Musha. Oh well, more testing tomorrow then and I was obviously not Elemental Reseting on the two lightning-weak mobs.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - JoeTang - 2011-01-21
Chilly Wrote:I'll test again on some other mobs tomorrow, but I ran down a Kacchuu Musha and an Anego today and their DoT values were too similar to account for any kind of bonus on the ice-weak Kacchuu Musha. Oh well, more testing tomorrow then and I was obviously not Elemental Reseting on the two lightning-weak mobs.
It might have to do with Ice Demon itself not being able to. It should show its neutral damage when you attack once, and if you use it again, it should show increased damage since the monster's ice resist was lowered. I know for sure Poison DoTs are affected by weaknesses and advantages.
Bishop Damage Equal to Archmage Damage - Slashtap - 2011-01-23
OP's point is incredibly one sided. As other posters have mentioned, damage over time in real, relevant areas supersedes potential DPS in a perfect situation. If you're going to play the game off that logic, you have to take your reasoning to the inevitable conclusion that only 2 or 3 classes are playable.