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+--- Thread: Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! (/showthread.php?tid=36386)
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Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Majora - 2011-01-17
I want to know about DPS.
Why do people say like 100 atk fast 2 = 107 fast 3 or something like that when wouldn't the fast 2 just be better simply because it attacks more.
I just don't understand which way to go for my DK, but I'm trying to acquire my end game weapon.
I've also heard VIP Spear is faster than the PA variant.
Just PLEASE reply with reasoning and flawless logic instead of "speed is just betta"
I want to know WHY and to what extent and why people claim that there's equivalent DPS with like 100 slow to 90 fast, I just don't understand how a slow spear can beat out a fast spear if you don't even know the amount of time the fight is, there's just no comparison of time to base Normal 100>107 Slow.
I know I'm a nub, sorry and please leave your responses with this in mind.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Locked - 2011-01-17
There are no high leveled Fast speed Spears anyway. Your best bet for a spear would be Sky Skis.
VIP Spear is Slow 7, PA is Slow 8/9. Don't remember.
Higher speed = More attacks per minute.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Shidoshi - 2011-01-17
DPS is, in resume, calculated by calculating how much damage you do in one attack and dividing it by the time taken to do it.
To know the point at which a stronger slower weapon is better than a weaker and faster you just need to solve this equation:
(Damage with slower weapon with X attack)/(Attack speed of slower weapon) = (Damage with faster weapon with Y attack)/(Attack speed of faster weapon)
You'll get a relationship of how much X has to be for a certain Y. Then you just input a value either for X or Y and you'll have how much attack is need on the other one.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Kalovale - 2011-01-17
Here's your flawless logic: Because a level of speed advantage (Normal 6 versus Slow 7) translates into an approximately 110% damage advantage. Damage from weapons comes from 2 sources:
- WATK: Which, to beat the 110% advantage, is required to be enough to cover the gap between [total WATK with weaker/faster weapon] and [total WATK with stronger/slower weapon]. Total WATK should average around 200 by today's standards, if your slower weapon can afford a 20atk+ advantage, then it's on equal grounds.
- Potentials: VIP spear has an edge on the potential side, if you have NX to fund it.
A minor side advantage of Fast-but-Weak weapons would be the damage cap, which is not at all very far-fetched for Drks.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - modular - 2011-01-18
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217
look for your skills. look at how fast they attack.
for example, crusher at normal(6) is 1050ms and 1140 at slow(7).
1140/1050 = 1.086
hence, the attack on a slow(7) spear must be ~9% higher than that of a normal(6) spear to beat the faster weapon in dps. => if you have a 100 att normal spear, a 109 att slow(7) spear beats it.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Stereo - 2011-01-18
Due to a fun glitch (Polearms look for Polearm Crusher level to determine attack speed), Crusher is a lot faster with Polearms, as it uses the 1~15 speeds instead of 16~30.
Effective it changes 1050 down to 900ms for Normal(6). A normal(6) PA is the same speed as a Fast(4) spear, slow(7) PA is as good as fast(5) spear, slow(8) PA is better than normal(6) spear.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Majora - 2011-01-18
So wait Stereo with that logic the VIP PA is better than the VIP spear? I think I kinda understand everyone's points. Would most of this be based on a minute of attacking? I just have a realllly difficult time understanding DPM/DPS, I'm like a rock it just doesn't sink in.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Stereo - 2011-01-18
Only with Crusher, which sucks anyway. The VIP Spear is better with Fury/Sacrifice which are really the primary attacks.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Kalovale - 2011-01-18
Stereo Wrote:Due to a fun glitch (Polearms look for Polearm Crusher level to determine attack speed), Crusher is a lot faster with Polearms, as it uses the 1~15 speeds instead of 16~30.
Effective it changes 1050 down to 900ms for Normal(6). A normal(6) PA is the same speed as a Fast(4) spear, slow(7) PA is as good as fast(5) spear, slow(8) PA is better than normal(6) spear.
Now that IS funny. How did I not notice it.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - WillDaSnail - 2011-01-18
Kalovale Wrote:Now that IS funny. How did I not notice it.
This.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Majora - 2011-01-18
How does Crusher suck? I understand Sacrifice but Fury is just bad for 1v1
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - SaptaZapta - 2011-01-18
Majora Wrote:Would most of this be based on a minute of attacking? I just have a realllly difficult time understanding DPM/DPS, I'm like a rock it just doesn't sink in.
Well, yes. DPM = Damage Per Minute. (DPS = Damage Per Second).
This assumes you're just spamming your attack as fast as it will go.
So, for example, if you have a weapon+skill combination that lets you do 300k damage per attack, and attacks once a second, you do 300k DPS and 300*60 = 18m DPM. If you were, say, fighting a boss with 30m HP, it would take you 100 seconds (1 minute and 40 seconds) to kill it.
If you have another weapon, that lets you do 450k damage per attack, but only attack once every two seconds, you can do 450*30 = 13.5m HP DPM. With that weapon, it would take 133 seconds to kill the same boss.
(Those numbers are for illustration purposes only. The speed difference between various spears is not that big.)
Note that DPM matters mostly for bosses. For normal training, you want to look at hits-to-kill. That is, if the slow weapon takes two attacks to kill each enemy, and the faster takes three attacks, that usually nullifies the speed advantage.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - TLeviathan - 2011-01-18
You mean 18m DPM right? 300,000*60 isn't 1,800,000, you lost a 0. Same mistake in the second damage calc as well I believe.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Stereo - 2011-01-18
Majora Wrote:How does Crusher suck? I understand Sacrifice but Fury is just bad for 1v1
In 3rd job, 1v1, Sacrifice > PA Crusher > Fury > Spear Crusher (damagewise)
You need to be in Berserk before Crusher can do more dps on any number of targets unless you switch to polearms. Odd weapon reversal.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Des - 2011-01-18
@up
Quote:You need to be in Berserk before Crusher can do more dps on any number of targets
sorry but cant agree with that
im currently playing a 13x dk and my sacrifice still outdmg rest of my skills on 1vs1.
my Sacrifice goes from 150 non critic to around 230 critic on bosses / normal mobs while crusher does up to 46k max (on normal) and up to 35k~ at pap and such.My zerk is still 20 tho.
(avg pap with crusher only 8-10 mins , avg pap with sacrifice only 4-4.5min thats without stance tho)
i guess till we get chaos patch (and more % on both crusher and fury) sacrifice remaining best 1vs1 skill for us (mostly cause of its def ignore ability).
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - TLeviathan - 2011-01-18
Any number as in at least one situation, not all (i.e. the conditions are met at some point, regardless of where it is). Before berserk, spear crusher has no chance. I'd assume 1v1 Spear Crusher only passes Fury with berserk, as PA is still a faster crusher than Spear and sacrifice beats both. If you go back further than just that one post you mention, the Crusher in question is specifically just spear (comment was that VIP PA is only better w/ crusher, which sucks, hence this chain of replies) so it's just about getting up from the bottom of the list.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - SunnySis - 2011-01-18
modular Wrote:http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217
look for your skills. look at how fast they attack.
for example, crusher at normal(6) is 1050ms and 1140 at slow(7).
1140/1050 = 1.086
hence, the attack on a slow(7) spear must be ~9% higher than that of a normal(6) spear to beat the faster weapon in dps. => if you have a 100 att normal spear, a 109 att slow(7) spear beats it.
This is incorrect. You must remember that it is the total damage that is considered when the speed changes, not just the attack on the weapon. Your statement about a 100atk spear and a 109atk spear would only be true if weapon attack was the only thing that determined your total damage.
Total damage is the affected by your STR and ALL of your equips. so a normal(6) spear gives you 1.08x the total damage of a slow(7) spear. SO in order to determine what the break even point is on the attack of a spear to make a normal(6) = slow(7) you must have gained enough attack on the slow(7) to account for 8% of your total damage.
I am not sure of the damage formula. but lets just say 10str = 1atk. and you have 1000 str and 200 atk from equips. that is around 300 atk. so if you want to use a slow(7) you need to gain 8% more atk than that so around 24atk more than the normal (6) spear.
The more total damage you do the larger that 8% becomes in wep atk. I would think it would be pretty easy for a end game player to see 8% of his total damage = 50+ atk. so that would mean he would need to gain 50atk more on his slow(7) (could be less atk and more potential to = a total of 50atk) to compair to a normal(6).
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - modular - 2011-01-18
SunnySis Wrote:This is incorrect. You must remember that it is the total damage that is considered when the speed changes, not just the attack on the weapon. Your statement about a 100atk spear and a 109atk spear would only be true if weapon attack was the only thing that determined your total damage.
Total damage is the affected by your STR and ALL of your equips. so a normal(6) spear gives you 1.08x the total damage of a slow(7) spear. SO in order to determine what the break even point is on the attack of a spear to make a normal(6) = slow(7) you must have gained enough attack on the slow(7) to account for 8% of your total damage.
I am not sure of the damage formula. but lets just say 10str = 1atk. and you have 1000 str and 200 atk from equips. that is around 300 atk. so if you want to use a slow(7) you need to gain 8% more atk than that so around 24atk more than the normal (6) spear.
The more total damage you do the larger that 8% becomes in wep atk. I would think it would be pretty easy for a end game player to see 8% of his total damage = 50+ atk. so that would mean he would need to gain 50atk more on his slow(7) (could be less atk and more potential to = a total of 50atk) to compair to a normal(6).
please notice that i was keeping it simple and excluding any other gear. you are trying to cloud the example with all kinds of crap. total damage and str are different multipliers and will not affect the 9% required difference in attack.
if however, your slower weapon provides an additional 9% total str (for example) and is the same att as your faster weapon, you may make up the difference that way. however, if you already have +100% str from equips, an additional 18% str is hard to come by on a weapon.
dont mix your multipliers.
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Majora - 2011-01-19
I just don't get why something that has existed for so long is still hard for people to agree upon. It's kinda annoying in a way.
So what is this about PA crusher being fast? I don't understand, isn't the animation the same and the speed slightly slower than spears?
Dark Knight DPS! Help me pleaseee! - Kalovale - 2011-01-19
Majora Wrote:I just don't get why something that has existed for so long is still hard for people to agree upon. It's kinda annoying in a way.
So what is this about PA crusher being fast? I don't understand, isn't the animation the same and the speed slightly slower than spears?
The old Crusher was assigned two speed values, one for level 1~15, another for the rest. There is no such thing as PA being faster/slower than spear, aside from the previously mentioned glitch, each weapon has a speed level, whichever has lower one is faster. Period.