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+--- Thread: Right to die (/showthread.php?tid=26895)
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-23
The right to die. Is it someone's right to be able to decide if they want to end their own life? Personally, I think if someone genuinely wants to die, they should be allowed to. Whether it be that they're terminally ill or they're just depressed. It is their body after all.
Without a doubt in my mind, I think anyone who is terminally ill or is in a vegetative state should be allowed to die. It is only merciful to let someone who is suffering die peacefully.
As for someone who is not terminally ill but just no longer possess the will to live, that is a bit more controversial. In my opinion, it is still their body and whether or not you agree with their choices they have the right to make that choice. In this, anyone has the right to try to give them other suggestions and advice, but in the end, that person still deserves to make their own decisions without interference.
So, although this isn't really the best, most thought out post, I just wanted to see what SP thinks of the issue.
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-23
I think somebody that's depressed and doesn't want to live anymore needs help, not the chance to end their life. Saying it should be allowed for someone to end their life because they're depressed is like saying it's ok for one with gambling issues to go to casinos regularly.
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-23
Kabanaw Wrote:I think somebody that's depressed and doesn't want to live anymore needs help, not the chance to end their life. Saying it should be allowed for someone to end their life because they're depressed is like saying it's ok for one with gambling issues to go to casinos regularly.
Well, if you earned the money, I think it is okay for that person to spend it however they see fit. If they want help, they can seek it, but at the end of the day they can make their own decisions and I'm cool with that.
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-23
Cancambo Wrote:Well, if you earned the money, I think it is okay for that person to spend it however they see fit. If they want help, they can seek it, but at the end of the day they can make their own decisions and I'm cool with that.
You do know people with gambling addictions aren't high rolling money makers, right? They often run out of money they need to feed their family or pay their rent, and get themselves and others around them into trouble because of their problem. It's a mental disease, just like depression. How about a heroin addiction? If somebody is ruining their lives with drugs you care about would you not step in? If one makes a choice, like a belief in religion, I'd go along with it because it's what they choose. But this isn't a choice, it's an illness.
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-23
Kabanaw Wrote:You do know people with gambling addictions aren't high rolling money makers, right? They often run out of money they need to feed their family or pay their rent, and get themselves and others around them into trouble because of their problem. It's a mental disease, just like depression. How about a heroin addiction? If somebody is ruining their lives with drugs you care about would you not step in? If one makes a choice, like a belief in religion, I'd go along with it because it's what they choose. But this isn't a choice, it's an illness.
Is it not your choice to start? You go into something knowing full well it is a destructive behavior. If people don't want to be interfered with, then don't interfere with them.
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-23
Cancambo Wrote:Is it not your choice to start? You go into something knowing full well it is a destructive behavior. If people don't want to be interfered with, then don't interfere with them.
What? Don't you think most people would stop self destructive behavior if they had a choice?
Say a kid climbs a tree. He falls off and breaks a leg. Sure, it was his choice to climb the tree, but does that mean you leave the kid lying on the ground with a broken leg?
Besides, that argument doesn't even apply to the original debate over letting the depressed comit suicide, since you don't choose to become depressed.
Right to die - Moonlapse - 2010-06-23
I support the right to die in the form of treatment, however I do not think physicians should be forced to kill a patient if the patient wants to die. I cannot see myself doing that when I am physician.
Right to die - Horusmaster - 2010-06-23
This is not as simple as you said it. If someone who's very sick, and that person's friend/family decides to kill him/her. How can the authority verify that the person really wanted to die in the beginning?
You can have some kind of set ups like the person dying giving consents, but this system can be abused by people making up false consents, or giving consents at times when they can't think logically (e.g drunk or bipolar people at the most depressed stage)
Further more a person who wants someone killed can launch psychological attacks on that person, making them feeling depressed and tricking them into consent of death.
It would also complicate the trials on homicide where the killer can defend themselves by saying they have the other person's consents.
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-23
Horusmaster Wrote:This is not as simple as you said it. If someone who's very sick, and that person's friend/family decides to kill him/her. How can the authority verify that the person really wanted to die in the beginning?
You can have some kind of set ups like the person dying giving consents, but this system can be abused by people making up false consents, or giving consents at times when they can't think logically (e.g drunk or bipolar people at the most depressed stage)
Further more a person who wants someone killed can launch psychological attacks on that person, making them feeling depressed and tricking them into consent of death.
It would also complicate the trials on homicide where the killer can defend themselves by saying they have the other person's consents.
It would make more sense for people in an advanced stage of a terminal disease, or a vegetable if it's thought there's no chance for a recovery. If a person is perfectly healthy, but yet the wish to die, then as I said before they need help, not death.
Right to die - Milelke - 2010-06-23
Depression is no excuse to kill yourself. Someone who is depressed should not have the right to kill themselves, because they are not suffering, they need treatment and intervention.
If someone wishes to die because they are terminally ill, it should be allowed, ONLY terminally. Meaning, its is certain they will die.
People in a vegetative state is a bit controversial, because these people still feel pain and have basic emotions.
Right to die - Horusmaster - 2010-06-23
Kabanaw Wrote:It would make more sense for people in an advanced stage of a terminal disease, or a vegetable if it's thought there's no chance for a recovery. If a person is perfectly healthy, but yet the wish to die, then as I said before they need help, not death.People in vegetable states cannot communicate and so is many people in terminal diseases. Those who can communicate would probably be in an bipolar state, where they are happy when they are occupied with friends and family, but sad when they are lonely by themselves.
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-24
Kabanaw Wrote:What? Don't you think most people would stop self destructive behavior if they had a choice?
Say a kid climbs a tree. He falls off and breaks a leg. Sure, it was his choice to climb the tree, but does that mean you leave the kid lying on the ground with a broken leg?
Besides, that argument doesn't even apply to the original debate over letting the depressed comit suicide, since you don't choose to become depressed.
True, that argument doesn't apply to the original debate because gambling, initially, is a choice. Therefore they aren't very good analogies.
Obviously, people don't choose to be depressed. However, they're not insane. I still think depressed people can make choices. Many choose to take the more difficult way out - treatment. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Others choose to commit suicide. I respect both decisions because it is their body and they can do what they want with it, as long as it doesn't harm other individuals. The only time I don't think it is fitting for people to make big choices like this on their own is if they are clearly intoxicated or not thinking clearly. Yes, depressed people can think clearly. If your life isn't pleasing you then one rational choice is to end it. Who am I to say that choice is wrong and then try to prevent you from doing it?
Right to die - Milelke - 2010-06-24
Cancambo Wrote:True, that argument doesn't apply to the original debate because gambling, initially, is a choice. Therefore they aren't very good analogies.@Bold
Obviously, people don't choose to be depressed. However, they're not insane. I still think depressed people can make choices. Many choose to take the more difficult way out - treatment. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Others choose to commit suicide. I respect both decisions because it is their body and they can do what they want with it, as long as it doesn't harm other individuals. The only time I don't think it is fitting for people to make big choices like this on their own is if they are clearly intoxicated or not thinking clearly. Yes, depressed people can think clearly. If your life isn't pleasing you then one rational choice is to end it. Who am I to say that choice is wrong and then try to prevent you from doing it?
Often times, when someone commits suicide, many people close to that person are hurt, not necessarily physically.
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-24
Milelke Wrote:@Bold
Often times, when someone commits suicide, many people close to that person are hurt, not necessarily physically.
You just have to come to terms with it. My brother committed suicide. I can't have that impact my life too much, that isn't what he would have wanted. He wasn't pleased with how things were going. His wife was about to leave him. He just got back from Iraq. He had always been picked on at school (he would wear suits to school). I saw that he wasn't happy, and he ended his misery. There's no point in hurting anymore. You should think happy thoughts about the person who has left. What's done is done. You live, you die. Memento mori.
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-24
Cancambo Wrote:True, that argument doesn't apply to the original debate because gambling, initially, is a choice. Therefore they aren't very good analogies.
Obviously, people don't choose to be depressed. However, they're not insane. I still think depressed people can make choices. Many choose to take the more difficult way out - treatment. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Others choose to commit suicide. I respect both decisions because it is their body and they can do what they want with it, as long as it doesn't harm other individuals. The only time I don't think it is fitting for people to make big choices like this on their own is if they are clearly intoxicated or not thinking clearly. Yes, depressed people can think clearly. If your life isn't pleasing you then one rational choice is to end it. Who am I to say that choice is wrong and then try to prevent you from doing it?
You clearly don't see the value of a human life. If your brother had pushed through that time in his life, he probably could have found happiness. He could have seen a therapist, met new people, found a new girlfriend, moved on with his life and been happy.
And people who are depressed have a chemical imbalance in the brain, and have cluttered and strewn emotions. For one to make a rational choice, he has to at least have close to balanced emotions. Since those with depression are incapable of balancing their emotions, they are also incapable of rational thought, and therefore can not make good choices. If you ask any mentally healthy person "Do you want to commit suicide?" 99.9999% of people will say no. Depression isn't a terminal disease or incurable. Asking if a depressed person if they want to die is the same as asking an intoxicated one, since they are both not capable of rational thought.
Right to die - Rob - 2010-06-24
[color="#000080"]
Kabanaw Wrote:You clearly don't see the value of a human life. If your brother had pushed through that time in his life, he probably could have found happiness. He could have seen a therapist, met new people, found a new girlfriend, moved on with his life and been happy.
And people who are depressed have a chemical imbalance in the brain, and have cluttered and strewn emotions. For one to make a rational choice, he has to at least have close to balanced emotions. Since those with depression are incapable of balancing their emotions, they are also incapable of rational thought, and therefore can not make good choices. If you ask any mentally healthy person "Do you want to commit suicide?" 99.9999% of people will say no. Depression isn't a terminal disease or incurable. Asking if a depressed person if they want to die is the same as asking an intoxicated one, since they are both not capable of rational thought.
True, but you clearly put no effort whatsoever in understanding his arguments.
I'm with Matt here, sort of. [/color]
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-24
Kabanaw Wrote:You clearly don't see the value of a human life. If your brother had pushed through that time in his life, he probably could have found happiness. He could have seen a therapist, met new people, found a new girlfriend, moved on with his life and been happy.
And people who are depressed have a chemical imbalance in the brain, and have cluttered and strewn emotions. For one to make a rational choice, he has to at least have close to balanced emotions. Since those with depression are incapable of balancing their emotions, they are also incapable of rational thought, and therefore can not make good choices. If you ask any mentally healthy person "Do you want to commit suicide?" 99.9999% of people will say no. Depression isn't a terminal disease or incurable. Asking if a depressed person if they want to die is the same as asking an intoxicated one, since they are both not capable of rational thought.
I see value in living, but I don't really see why it is so bad to lose it. We all know life can be enjoyable or unenjoyable. I think everyone has the right to live or die if they want. Granted, I don't condone medically assisted suicide unless the person meets certain criteria (terminally ill, vegetative state, etc.) that way it might be easier for the doctor to bear it on their conscience. I don't really see much difference in improving life, or just ending it. Either way you end the misery, it just depends on the route you choose. I don't really think we should be allowed to control another individual unless they're clearly a harm to society. And again, you can still think rationally when you're depressed. Depression causes sadness. The only irrational thought I can think of that is associated with depression is choosing to do nothing at all. A normal person would want to end the sadness, somehow. I don't really want to judge that person on their decisions, either. Could things be different if my brother was alive? Things most certainly would be different, but who's to say what he did was wrong? He's no longer sad, and at the end of the day that is really what matters. I'd rather someone not have to suffer pain, physical or emotional, regardless of how they go about doing that.
Obviously I know my thoughts are a bit radical as all our lives we are told "suicide is never ok."
Right to die - Kabanaw - 2010-06-24
Rob Wrote:True, but you clearly put no effort whatsoever in understanding his arguments.
I'm with Matt here, sort of.
How did I not put any effort into seeing his argument? He's saying he finds suicide to be a viable way to escape depression, and it's someone's choice to take that escape.
Cancambo Wrote:I see value in living, but I don't really see why it is so bad to lose it. We all know life can be enjoyable or unenjoyable. I think everyone has the right to live or die if they want. Granted, I don't condone medically assisted suicide unless the person meets certain criteria (terminally ill, vegetative state, etc.) that way it might be easier for the doctor to bear it on their conscience. I don't really see much difference in improving life, or just ending it. Either way you end the misery, it just depends on the route you choose. I don't really think we should be allowed to control another individual unless they're clearly a harm to society. And again, you can still think rationally when you're depressed. Depression causes sadness. The only irrational thought I can think of that is associated with depression is choosing to do nothing at all. A normal person would want to end the sadness, somehow. I don't really want to judge that person on their decisions, either. Could things be different if my brother was alive? Things most certainly would be different, but who's to say what he did was wrong? He's no longer sad, and at the end of the day that is really what matters. I'd rather someone not have to suffer pain, physical or emotional, regardless of how they go about doing that.
Obviously I know my thoughts are a bit radical as all our lives we are told "suicide is never ok."
Ever read Fahrenheit 451? Sounds like you'd love that society. Nobody ever feels any pain because nobody ever feels anything.
Right to die - Cancambo - 2010-06-24
Kabanaw Wrote:How did I not put any effort into seeing his argument? He's saying he finds suicide to be a viable way to escape depression, and it's someone's choice to take that escape.
Ever read Fahrenheit 451? Sounds like you'd love that society. Nobody ever feels any pain because nobody ever feels anything.
Viable, yes. And it is that person's choice to choose that option. I have no right to judge, even if I would advise them to try another solution. But in the end, it is their choice, not mine or your's.
Also, I've heard of Fahrenheit 451, but I haven't read it. Also, you seem to misunderstand me. I don't think it is good for people to be emotionless. And to even feel happiness you have to feel sadness sometimes. However, if someone wants to end their life due to the sadness they've felt, that's their choice, and an understandable one.
Right to die - MorbidMagus - 2010-06-27
Speaking for someone who was clinically depressed for a long time, I would certainly regret having that decision without any interference in that state of mind, especially now that I'm a happy human being. People are not in their best mind when depressed, I know I wasn't.