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Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

Dual Blade Mechanics

This will basically be an FAQ sort of thread with less Q and more A. Hopefully not a lot of F either.
The goal of this thread will be to objectively determine how the Dual Blade character class works. Not whether or not this class is broken or makes other characters obsolete.
Your input would be greatly appreciated as long as it is constructive towards this goal.
 Change Log
First, I'll start off by clearing a very large misconception.
How do Blades work?
Blades are Blades. They are not Daggers. They are not Shields. They have their own attack. This attack is not added to their Dagger. Their Dagger attack is not added to their Blade.
A Dual Blade wields both a Dagger and a Blade. That's two weapons. When they use an attack, they will alternate with the weapon to deal damage. Half the attacks will be dealt with the Dagger, and the other half will be dealt with the Blade.
Blades have their own damage range.
Dual Blades are not broken because they have +x more weapon attack from their Blade.
When their character screen is displayed, the damage range shown uses a total attack from their Blade and Dagger. This is wrong. The damage range shown in their character screen is merely a visual error. They do not use this to deal damage, much like how an Aran can never hit the minimum range in their Polearm range.
It is most likely that any extra stats from a Blade do not affect the Dagger's range, and vice-versa. i.e. a Blade's +LUK most likely does not affect the Dagger's damage range, and a Dagger's +LUK most likely will not affect the Blade's damage Range.
More research into this area is required, but it is the most logical conclusion to assume that they are both completely independent of each other.

Calculating Damage
Claw/Dagger Formula:
Minimum Damage = [(3.6 * 0.9 * Mastery * LUK + STR + DEX) / 100] * WA
Maximum Damage = [(3.6 * LUK + STR + DEX) / 100] * WA
Dual Blade uses the same formula for Daggers and Blades. When calculating the range, do not add the Dagger's stats to the Blade's Range, and do not add the Blade's stats to the Dagger's Range.
Example character from Dusk's DPS chart:
117 Attack 7 LUK Dagger
65 Attack 7 LUK Blade
Total Stats without weapons: 33 Attack, 48 STR, 171 DEX, 1082 LUK

Displayed Ranged: 5052~8954
Dagger Range: 3504~6209
Blade Range: 2289~4056

The character display screen will show the Displayed Range. A Dual Blade will not be doing this much damage. Instead, a Dual Blade uses either their Dagger or Blade range depending on the hit of their skill; however, certain skills only hit once. These skills only use the Dagger Range, as far as we know. There may be exceptions.

Attack Speed Delays
Disclaimer: This chart does not account for any delays or 'cooldowns' between quick skill succession. At best, this char displays the minimum ~Normal (6) speed of all skills. For example, if Skill X has 600ms of delay, this at the least usually represents the amount of time before you are able to move after using the attack. At best, it represents the time before you can reuse the same attack.
 Spoiler

When observing Aran skill speeds, the skill delays proved to be a fairly accurate depiction of their actual speeds, outside of a single error with the Normal Attack's delay, which was part of Aran's combo attack mechanic, I believe. Thus, I believe we can use these as a basis for preliminary calculations. It would be, however, a great asset to have accurate readings of attack speeds for further precision.

Skills
When you attack a monster damage numbers appear in a certain order. They start at the bottom and rise upwards to display more numbers for attacks that hit more than once. As such, the bottom number of a multi-hit skill occurred first. This bottom number is a Dagger hit. The one above this hit is a Blade hit. The next is a Dagger hit, and so forth.

When calculating skill damage and DPS, it is required to separate the damage into its Blade and Dagger components first to determine the proper defense reduction and ratio of DPS that is applied from Dagger-only skills. For speed, the above chart can be used to compare Base DPS. The ratio is the same for every skill so unless you are comparing two different speed ranks, or two different classes, it is irrelevant. It is currently unknown how the Blade's speeds (Fast (3)) affect attack speed.

Triple Stab vs Fatal Blow

In this section, I would like to discuss the value of both skills as both are seemingly valuable in my opinion.
 Spoiler

Upper Stab
Fatal Blow & Triple Stab
 Spoiler


Triple Stab vs Slash and Bloody Storm vs Tornado Spin vs Flying Assaulter
Primary Mob Skills
 Triple Stab
 Slash and Bloody Storm

 Tornado Spin

 Flying Assaulter

 Upper Stab

Upper Stab
Mob Skill Combinations
 Spoiler
Mirror Image
 Spoiler

Chains of Hell

 Spoiler

Thorns
The Other SE
 Spoiler
Owl Dead
 Spoiler



Things to further elaborate on or acquire more information about:
Upper Stab + Mob skills.
Damage of Chains of Hell
Final Cut
Stack Effect
Thorns
Advanced Dark Sight


Dual Blade Mechanics - Dusk - 2010-02-22

pineapple this class sounds like a peach to do calculations for.


Dual Blade Mechanics - KaidaTan - 2010-02-22

Dusk Wrote:pineapple this class sounds like a peach to do calculations for.
Oh... um... about that... I already modified your calc to do their DPS. Sorry ahead of time if it's not cool, but I used OpenOffice to edit lots of stuff. Mostly new stuff and potential stuff, but most recently to add Dual Blades to it.


Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

Dusk Wrote:pineapple this class sounds like a peach to do calculations for.

It's the small stupid things like Tornado Dash, or 123% Jump. THINK ABOUT IT.

P.S. Anyone know how long it takes to reach max height on 123% Jump?


Dual Blade Mechanics - KaidaTan - 2010-02-22

JoeTang Wrote:It's the small stupid things like Tornado Dash, or 123% Jump. THINK ABOUT IT.

P.S. Anyone know how long it takes to reach max height on 123% Jump?
You know, it could be that you need to have downward momentum to use Flying Assaulter rather than be a very specific amount of pixels above the ground.


Dual Blade Mechanics - Locked - 2010-02-22

The whole idea of two damage ranges seems easy enough to understand, but is that formula confirmed to work on both?

Edit: Another thing to note is the use of parenthesis when adding LUK STR and DEX, because the numbers could really be different. Unless there's no need for them.


Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

KaidaTan Wrote:You know, it could be that you need to have downward momentum to use Flying Assaulter rather than be a very specific amount of pixels above the ground.

There was a video of a person constantly jumping up and down trying to use it with no avail, as well as the same person I believe, using it and ending up below the ground (falling off the skele map and respawning outside). Someone else here claimed they read that 123% Jump was a requirement to use this skill. Would be interesting if that were how it worked though, but I believe it places you in the same-ish place on the ground each time, so it'd be like how you can't Assaulter yourself off a platform perhaps?

Updated with some mob skills and DPS charts. (augh, had to redo them because of the server roll back but now I have Critical Rings included despite what little effect they actually prove to be.)


Dual Blade Mechanics - cleric1213 - 2010-02-22

1 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow?

Mind is blown


Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

cleric1213 Wrote:1 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow?

Mind is blown

If I claimed that anywhere, it is a typo. 10 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow. In fact, 5 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow.


Dual Blade Mechanics - Link - 2010-02-22

JoeTang Wrote:If I claimed that anywhere, it is a typo. 10 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow. In fact, 5 Triple Stab > 20 Fatal Blow.

Is this changed now that Fatal Blow was buffed to 180% damage?


Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

ShiKage Wrote:Is this changed now that Fatal Blow was buffed to 180% damage?

No. This update happened... 4 minutes ago? Working on it.

Holy pomegranate Triple Stab mobs three.


Dual Blade Mechanics - Link - 2010-02-22

JoeTang Wrote:No. This update happened... 4 minutes ago? Working on it.

Holy pomegranate Triple Stab mobs three.

Oh yeah. I missed that update. LOL

Triple Stab is sex now. Glitter


Dual Blade Mechanics - Locked - 2010-02-22

ShiKage Wrote:Oh yeah. I missed that update. LOL

Triple Stab is sex now. Glitter

The buff on Fatal Blow is pretty nice too, I'd like to see how it takes a turn on the DPS charts too though.


Dual Blade Mechanics - JoeTang - 2010-02-22

Updated Triple Stab and Fatal Blow tables.

Taking a preliminary look, Triple Stab leads against Slash Storm when less than six mobs. Will update the Slash Storm, Bloody Storm, and Tornado Spin tables later.

In the mean time, I shall sleep.


Dual Blade Mechanics - Locked - 2010-02-22

JoeTang Wrote:At level 1, it does 155% damage x3 to three monsters. Remember that two hits are Dagger, and one is Blade. Double Stab does 126%x2. Presumably, it does both hits with the Dagger; otherwise, un-equip your Blade if you're using Double Stab.

At level one, it does 155% damage x3 to two monsters, not three.


Dual Blade Mechanics - cleric1213 - 2010-02-22

Locked Wrote:At level one to five, it does 155% damage x3 to two monsters, not three.

corrected


Dual Blade Mechanics - Dusk - 2010-02-22

KaidaTan Wrote:Oh... um... about that... I already modified your calc to do their DPS. Sorry ahead of time if it's not cool, but I used OpenOffice to edit lots of stuff. Mostly new stuff and potential stuff, but most recently to add Dual Blades to it.

That's totally fine. You can even take over my thread if you want, because I'm too lazy to spend more than a hour on something I really don't care about anymore.


Dual Blade Mechanics - KaidaTan - 2010-02-22

Dusk Wrote:That's totally fine. You can even take over my thread if you want, because I'm too lazy to spend more than a hour on something I really don't care about anymore.
Actually, I did a lot of gutting. I plan to totally rip out the different sets of equipment as well as simplify the first page to lower the number of checkboxes on it. I didn't even notice that you had hidden so many cells on the physical damage tab until just recently, you sly person you. Anyway, the purpose of the edits is mostly so that I can personally use it to compare new classes and new updates with current classes to be able to effectively guess how strong they are, relatively speaking. I doubt I'll share it with anyone besides Joe and Russt, especially since it's become pretty ugly and a little harder to use.


Dual Blade Mechanics - Dusk - 2010-02-22

KaidaTan Wrote:Actually, I did a lot of gutting. I plan to totally rip out the different sets of equipment as well as simplify the first page to lower the number of checkboxes on it. I didn't even notice that you had hidden so many cells on the physical damage tab until just recently, you sly person you. Anyway, the purpose of the edits is mostly so that I can personally use it to compare new classes and new updates with current classes to be able to effectively guess how strong they are, relatively speaking. I doubt I'll share it with anyone besides Joe and Russt, especially since it's become pretty ugly and a little harder to use.

Hm, I could take your version when you're done, make it look prettier and post that? I like to let people have access to as much accurate information as possible.


Dual Blade Mechanics - KaidaTan - 2010-02-22

Dusk Wrote:Hm, I could take your version when you're done, make it look prettier and post that? I like to let people have access to as much accurate information as possible.
Sure, if you want. I just wasn't sure I trust people to use it properly though. Look at what a fuss my level 200 Bucc vs. level 120 Striker document caused.