Benjamin Franklin Wrote:They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Quote:He who would give up a little liberty to gain a little security, deserves neither, and will lose them both.

ndynslvr Wrote:I think there is a similiar quote on getting the tech "liberalism" on Civ 4.



Which I think is a more accurate representation of Ben Franklins statement. Seriously after letting Georgie make something called the Patriot Act (not sure) to give the government the ability to wiretap without a warrant, it will only be a matter of time when we elect someone to the white house who grows a little beyond the control off congress, probably supported by a party with a militia. After all we have seen what Cheney did to CIA interrogation programs. Our congressmen that we elect didnt know about it. We let CIA go unchecked by the common people. Its as if the central government acts not for the people but for themselves. The people are supposed to be in charge! Not some guys like Cheney who prefer to rule unchecked by congress. This only adds fuel to the tension between radical Muslims and the supposedly "free world"

Zalfor Wrote:I don't see why any of them would be ashamed of you. We proclaim these men as visionaries and heroes to their victories and triumphs, but nobody can triumph at every point in their life. My guess is, at least somewhere in everybody's blood line, there's been a murderer, a rapist, a molester, or something of the sort.

Society changes over time, and we give the American forefather's credit to their ideals and upkeeping them, but those ideals also included numerous wars, slavery, and the degradation of women's rights for hundreds of years just to name a few. You can blame it on the times, you can blame current problems on the "times", but the ideals have changed to more basic instincts rather than the glorious ideals of the few rich or prospective people that make up certain facets of society or pieces of stories.

And if you think about "giving everything up to the government makes a socialist or fascist government" idea, it's simply not true. Canada seems to function as a sprawling capitalist culture even though most of our functions are "controlled" by government. I believe there is a major problem in letting the government in on everything that's profitable, because it normally makes it less efficient, cost more, or worse quality. Healthcare, tobacco, gambling, lotteries, sewer, water, the list goes on and on. But what I do believe is that government SHOULD have a say in what is essential to it's populus, such as it's health, it's crime, it's overall system of law and order and so on.

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem." - Theodore Rubin.

Thunda Wrote:"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson

The problem being: are you willing to give your life to preserve liberty for others?

EmuAlert Wrote:No offense to any of these arguments, but I think we give too much credit to "our founding fathers."

ImVindictive Wrote:Most people who question America, and what it is don't really understand what an American really is. I'm in a military, don't essentially agree how our government works.

When the forefathers created the constitiution there were a lot of things different. A lot of gray area's that they could have never predicted in their imagination. It's unfair to simply say our leaders are incompetent or what have you when they aren't withholding a certain standard that our forefathers laid out for us.

Now I'm not going to sit here and rant about the following 8 years of pure pomegrante but let me say this. It wasn't George's fault, it wasnt Clinton's fault, it wasn't anyones fault. It was several events that led up to one huge blow up. I don't agree how George W JR executed the Afghanistan invasion, but none the less it had to be done.

I don't know, I just have faith there are some things our government isn't telling us and they are doing the best of their abilities for our country. America is a double edge sword with said freedoms, an experiment that could go wrong any day it seems like. I don't find it ethical for freedom of speech to stretch as far as Nazis able to parade freely, for children to go around saying whatever they want and being insubbordinate, and a few other things. Theres freedom but there is abuse of it as well.

Thunda Wrote:This is true, especially in light of the fact that many of these founding fathers were elitist (democracy was a dirty word in their days). However, what we do admire in them is their willingness to act against a heavy-handed government, something distinctly lacking in modern-day America.

rayhovite Wrote:Who fed you that line of crap? And why did you eat it?



Our forefathers would be incredibly disappointed in our generation, for allowing so much crap to be flung on our doorstep and us to justify it in our existence rather than find the smart paths to change.

Organizational sociology argues that elites eventually amass power even though they are voted into office on any level of government, and originally follow their duty of representation. To counter the elites, people must use their power to recall those who no longer truly represent their constituents. People in general don't do that anymore. It takes tragedy to shake many out of apathy, and by then, it is usually too late.

Our forefathers were well-educated, open-minded, and had real goals in mind. Anyone stepping into a town hall today would see a pathetic attempt at a debate. Did you know people actually used to show up to debates with research on the subject? Now you see complete f*cking morons showing up with "Obama is Hitler" instead of true counter arguments and propositions to the health legislation. I doubt even 0.5% of the people who showed up at town halls even read the damn legislation that was proposed. People show up, dripping in ignorance and following a sheep mentality.

I can't believe it's gotten this bad. I help when I can. Awaken the minds of your fellow men. They have slept for far too long.