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+--- Thread: [Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. (/showthread.php?tid=74864)
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Zelkova - 2015-08-12
Additional options on their own is a really nice system. I really enjoyed playing KMS and hunting down HP gear on my Demon Avenger.
But at the game currently stands, I don't think we need to introduce another system to the game for enhancing equipment.
As it currently stands, these are the systems we have in GMS:
- Scrolling
- Hammering
- Enhancing
- Potential
- Bonus Potential
- Nebulites
- Boss Souls
- Superior Status (on some gear)
Do we really need to add additional options into this mess?
Also, like [MENTION=4093]SaptaZapta[/MENTION]; mentioned, we would also introduce the 5 PSOK limit on level 140+ gear by adding additional options.
MS doesn't need more power creep. It needs to be dialed down, not up.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - SaptaZapta - 2015-08-12
Grey Wrote:I think the argument that the rich get better equipment is unfounded. Additional options isn't a system that distinguishes between rich and poor. Sure, richer players can do more bosses, but that's only a marginal increase in the amount of flames they can get, especially since most of the more difficult bosses, except like, Hard Hilla and Chaos Pink Bean, are once a week rather than something they can do every day to widen the gap. Not to mention the possibility that those flames would be possibly be unhelpful anyway because those only work on equips from before additional options were a thing (you need to extract them and craft the new flames with Accessory Crafting to use them on newer equipments, so they do still have value). Being rich doesn't give you that much of an advantage over the poor, it doesn't let you spam flames infinitely more often. Being rich also doesn't mean you'll always have the best stats on your equips, either. Sure, you can buy the equips with the best additional options, but a poorer player could easily save up for a cheap, terrible additional option equip and flame that until it's good (something else which we've lost since they also got rid of stat variation as whole is price variation on equips). This is more speaking from the game as it is now, but even at the point we would've gotten it, I think it would've been quite a bit more helpful for poorer players than the rich.
The rich get the best equips because they can afford to buy them pre-flamed.
For example, right now in GMS, one of the best ways for the unfunded to get meso is Commerci. Grind for Denaro, buy face/eye accessory, sell for 300m or so if it's got 7% stat.
If a poor person lucks onto a 14% face accessory, will they use it themselves, or will they sell it to buy a full CRA set?
Same with flames. Yes, you can get lucky with flames. Or you can get so lucky that you would rather sell that one godly equip to buy a dozen mediocre ones (that are still better than what you're wearing).
We have cubes dropping from bosses. So, theoretically, one could get lucky with their cubing, too.
Granted, flames don't have ranks like cubes, so it's less of an uphill grind, but still. Most of the time you won't get anything good. And when you do, it might be "too good" to keep.
While I don't object to flames, because, as said before, the rich are already capping, I do believe they will help the almost-capping rich quite a bit more than they'll help the poor.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Grey - 2015-08-12
SaptaZapta Wrote:Most of the time you won't get anything good.
This is purely anecdotal now, but most of the time, I have actually gotten things that are good with the few flames I've ever used. It's not incredibly unlikely for you to get good stats with additional options, like with cubes, that you have to Sophie's choice money vs power. The stat boosts are good enough that I could use something like Pensalir equips as a viable alternative to Empress and given how often they drop, I wouldn't have to flame them, I could just hunt until I get them with the stats I want. At this point (disregarding the hat/pants glitch), you can viably save enough for a crap additional option CRA set and flame them yourself.
Good additional options are abundant enough that you could feasibly always have a better than decent backup if you roll badly, or want to sell something good.
Like you said, additional options don't have ranks like potential, and it's much more feasible for you to get really good additional options from a drop than it is for you to get a legendary drop at all. So, additionally, if you were flaming, you wouldn't have to waste dozens of flames trying to rank up so you can get the best additional options, they're always available.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - jakbeer - 2015-08-12
If the scissor BS was removed, how would it benefit/ harm?
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Zelkova - 2015-08-12
I guess everyone only really cares about damage and they could give a pineapple less about how the game actually runs, right?
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Justin - 2015-08-12
Zelkova Wrote:I guess everyone only really cares about damage and they could give a pineapple less about how the game actually runs, right?
Fucking sheep.
Oh give it a rest. That discussion is neither here nor there. We're discussing the severe pay wall problem this game has - yes, the game has more complex problems than that, but that isn't the discussion that is being had here. Make a new thread.
On topic, having another upgrade option is not a bad thing, especially one that is completely free to maximize on. That is what the average player needs. This isn't a matter of the community caring solely about damage, it's a matter of being able to experience the higher end content without forking over a giant wad of cash or sacrificing your social life.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - KhainiWest - 2015-08-12
Zelkova Wrote:I guess everyone only really cares about damage and they could give a pineapple less about how the game actually runs, right?
pineappleing sheep.
Aren't you part of that mini volunteer thing? Cus that's a pretty pomegranatety attitude to have. I mean, I don't even know what this upgrade system is but from the little reading in this thread it was a convenient way for the low funded to get a little higher towards the ceiling, while most misinterpreted the MEE's as the upgrade 'potential' of it. Additional systems are frowned upon but ones that benefit the lower tiers kind of take priority of an already cluttered game.
"pineappleing sheep" over something like a goddamn like/dislike rating is pretty goddamn unproductive
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Zelkova - 2015-08-12
KhainiWest Wrote:Aren't you part of that mini volunteer thing? Cus that's a pretty pomegranatety attitude to have. I mean, I don't even know what this upgrade system is but from the little reading in this thread it was a convenient way for the low funded to get a little higher towards the ceiling, while most misinterpreted the MEE's as the upgrade 'potential' of it. Additional systems are frowned upon but ones that benefit the lower tiers kind of take priority of an already cluttered game.
"pineappleing sheep" over something like a goddamn like/dislike rating is pretty goddamn unproductive
Yeah probably not the best choice of words.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Marksman Bryan - 2015-08-12
One more way to upgrade items is not going to keep new players away from this game any more than the -counts- eight other ways.
New players don't even have to worry about additional options because they're present without ANY extra work besides hunting on their own. The only downside is the scissor limit.
Additional Options will also give maxed out players something new to spend time and money on to make their gear even better. It gives everyone at every tier of the game something to do.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Zelkova - 2015-08-12
I'm not even talking about new players, old players, rich players, poor players. I'm saying its power creep and we don't need more of it. Period.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Marksman Bryan - 2015-08-12
Zelkova Wrote:I'm not even talking about new players, old players, rich players, poor players. I'm saying its power creep and we don't need more of it. Period.
I completely agree.
Unfortunately, the entire game has run around power creep for years. It's gone on way too long and it has gotten way too far out of hand to really change that to a large extent. MLC will do what they can, but it'll be impossible to get rid of power creep or bring any sort of order back to this game.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - cronnoponno - 2015-08-12
Zelkova Wrote:I guess everyone only really cares about damage and they could give a pineapple less about how the game actually runs, right?
I made a pretty damn long post saying how fixing the pay2win problem isn't going to fix the game and how their design philosphy and balancing ultimately ruin it from being a better game, just saying.
Page 3 second to last post.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - KhainiWest - 2015-08-12
Zelkova Wrote:I'm not even talking about new players, old players, rich players, poor players. I'm saying its power creep and we don't need more of it. Period.
Marksman Bryan Wrote:I completely agree.
Unfortunately, the entire game has run around power creep for years. It's gone on way too long and it has gotten way too far out of hand to really change that to a large extent. MLC will do what they can, but it'll be impossible to get rid of power creep or bring any sort of order back to this game.
Let's bring this to context, the point isn't we need more damage, the point is we need a smaller gap, this is a convenient free way to do so for the lower end of the game, which is the largest complaint in this thread. It barely benefits if not alters the higher end part of the game, so really I wouldn't call it a power creep rather than an averaging.
Also you're putting too much faith into this MLC thing, look how much volunteers could get done with the direct link to the community manager, now you're adding a second layer. Two of which left because their concerns were completely ignored unless it was a dramatic exploit, I mean I think we all can start seeing the problem here right?
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - PirateIzzy - 2015-08-12
Seeing how we don't have additional options but we do have nebulites, I'd love to see them make those easier to obtain, honestly, especially at higher ranks. Hell, since Accessory Crafters have nothing really noteworthy to craft since they can't make flames, why not give them something nebulite-related to craft? Like a box that gives a random nebulite or something, with a limit to how high the rank is. I don't know, just spitballing here.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Silver - 2015-08-12
KhainiWest Wrote:Let's bring this to context, the point isn't we need more damage, the point is we need a smaller gap, this is a convenient free way to do so for the lower end of the game, which is the largest complaint in this thread. It barely benefits if not alters the higher end part of the game, so really I wouldn't call it a power creep rather than an averaging.
But it actually does increase though, the more upgrade options you have. Which is how potential, bonus potential, star force/enhancements, nebulites, etc. all have introduced problems to the game and is also a deterrent to party play. Notice here we're talking about a damage gap, not a defense gap, an accuracy gap, or an HP gap, in which normal MMORPG games structure the gameplay around (at least for anything combat related including party play). For Maple, only the damage gap matters - and we have a ridiculously large one.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - KhainiWest - 2015-08-12
Silver Wrote:But it actually does increase though, the more upgrade options you have. Which is how potential, bonus potential, star force/enhancements, nebulites, etc. all have introduced problems to the game and is also a deterrent to party play. Notice here we're talking about a damage gap, not a defense gap, an accuracy gap, or an HP gap, in which normal MMORPG games structure the gameplay around (at least for anything combat related including party play). For Maple, only the damage gap matters - and we have a ridiculously large one.[MENTION=1747]Grey[/MENTION]; I'm too lazy to explain it, you do it
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Zelkova - 2015-08-12
PirateIzzy Wrote:Seeing how we don't have additional options but we do have nebulites, I'd love to see them make those easier to obtain, honestly, especially at higher ranks. Hell, since Accessory Crafters have nothing really noteworthy to craft since they can't make flames, why not give them something nebulite-related to craft? Like a box that gives a random nebulite or something, with a limit to how high the rank is. I don't know, just spitballing here.
I can side with Nebulites. They've always been pretty elusive to obtain, the boxes drop at really low rates and the chances of getting anything higher than a D rank are pretty slim.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - Grey - 2015-08-12
Silver Wrote:But it actually does increase though, the more upgrade options you have. Which is how potential, bonus potential, star force/enhancements, nebulites, etc. all have introduced problems to the game and is also a deterrent to party play. Notice here we're talking about a damage gap, not a defense gap, an accuracy gap, or an HP gap, in which normal MMORPG games structure the gameplay around (at least for anything combat related including party play). For Maple, only the damage gap matters - and we have a ridiculously large one.
The quantity of upgrade systems isn't the major factor in creating a gap here. If I had a million different upgrade systems that were equally available to everyone, with 100% chance to get an upgrade that would be the same for everyone, that wouldn't cause a gap. All those things have an element of chance, which on its own, I think is fine. The gap would just be based on chance, which doesn't discriminate, and we would probably have people along a wide spectrum of damage levels. The problem is that you can brute force your way to better equips by throwing tons of money at it. There are people who can, and eagerly, spend to get the best possible equips, and those that can't, or won't. That's where the gap comes from. With potentials, sure, you could spend hours gathering materials to craft cubes, but you can get as many cubes as you want if you just buy them from the cash shop. The more you spend, the higher the chance of getting something good, not to mention there's an entire potential system (bonus pots) that non-paying don't even have access too, except for like, if I remember correctly, two instances where you could buy 5 bonus pot cubes for rewards points. This isn't even like a minor thing, you can get pretty significant stats from bonus pots, that non-paying players will never see, there's a gap, right there. Enhancements, I mean, they cost a lot back in the day, with having to buy protection scrolls and all, and those gave a big bonus too, for weapons, but most people would just do their weapon and be done with it, but that was still at least 7 stars more than a non-paying player, unless they spent entire events farming and hoping that the few protection scrolls that they could get would let them pass an enhancement scroll. Thankfully, we have star force now. Nebulites... you can't even get A rank outside of marvel or gach or fusing, all of which cost money. To have good results from these systems, you pretty much have to spend a ton of money, and if you can't, well, you're basically out of luck.
Things like additional options and star force don't increase the gap much, if at all. They're equally available and unaffected by how much money you throw at the screen (additional options more so than star force, since star force gets pretty pricey so, you know, that's kind of gappy). At worst they shift the gap up, and given that there's a cap, weaker players can continue to rise while stronger players eventually hit the cap, necessarily decreasing the gap.
It's incredibly stupid to think that not adding additional options is somehow helping things. All you're doing is making sure that weaker players necessarily have to pay to get better equips, not to mention making everything but the best stuff irredeemably worthless. It's unlikely that Nexon's going to suddenly remove potential or make it available to everyone (without pissing all the heavy spenders off), so we might as well look out for the little guy until they come up with a satisfying solution for the power creep. At the very least, if everyone's in the same damage range, it makes it much easier to scale things down.
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - StarStrafer - 2015-08-13
pineapple the negativity, look at this awesomeness https://youtu.be/j0qXuRMrJh4
[Rant] This game's practically dead in terms of actual content. - dowie - 2015-08-13
I dunno how that's related but anyways can you even get above a B neb ( rarely) from a neb box? Is there anyway to combine them other than paying nx?