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[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Sorien - 2011-04-20
Baklava Wrote:Not sure if you guys know, but you have to spawn poison mists in order to use mist explosion...
It's not insta-damage...
I'm pretty sure everyone that's been posting is aware of that fact. Mist Explosion is still pretty crazy though, especially if two or three mist clouds are placed close enough to the same enemy to hit it with all of them.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Cheesecake - 2011-04-20
PeePeeAyeDeeKay Wrote:Well I remember someone(forgot who) mentioning potion cooldown on normal maps, and building off of that...Instead of redesigning the games function to cater to one classes needs, redesign the class to meet the games needs. I feel like it would have been more practical to give bishops a skill like sharpeyes and speed infusion. Not many roles left for a bishop to fill, unless nexon can pull something out of their butt that's amazing and ground breaking.
What if they made potion cooldown apply on ALL maps, but gave 3rd job Priest a party skill where X% of damage done recovers as HP and Y% of damage done recovers as MP. However, lower the stats on recovery skills for other jobs and the defense mechanics would probably need to be improved a bit.
Lower Shining Ray to 20 SP so you can max that HP MP leech skill
Possibly lower Holy Magic Shell and Holy Symbol to 20 SP, then add Holy Shield back but in 3rd job along with making it apply to Seduce, Stun, Slow, Zombify, Disorient, and Dispel.
As a compensation for a lower offensive ability as a Bishop, possibly give Advanced Bless a passive +50% - 100% EXP boost on Holy Symbol for the Bishop alone? I'm thinking they could possibly change -25% MP cost to -25% cooldown time for party for Advanced Bless.
Wound system? Each time you get hit, you receive wounds and you can't recover the HP that are wounds. Lets say if you take a hit and receive 25 wounds, and your max hp is 1000. That means you would only be able to heal HP up to 975/1000 until those wounds are healed. That would mean Bishops would be getting a new skill in I'd say probably 3rd job that heals "wounds". Wound healing potions would have a long cooldown of lets say 30 seconds to 1 min?
.. Just throwing out some ideas that could make the Bishop class more of a support class but without decreasing their leveling ability? as well as possibly making the game more interesting?..
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Rick - 2011-04-20
Hey guys, let's go from one extreme to the other! Instead of making Bishops unneeded, let's make it impossible to live without them!
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Panacea - 2011-04-20
Despite the smartass-ness, I agree with Rick.
Each class should be able to solo on its own, without having to rely on the support of another. (ie. Don't make it utterly impossible to train without a Bishop.)
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - donovan - 2011-04-20
Throw an extra 20% Damage onto to Holy Focus, since they lack Amplification. Decrease Explosion damage to be closer to I/L, they can be above for all I care, but the gap right now is insane.
The last thing I'd like is removal of Doom for Reset, and unique Reset Animation for I/L and Bishops, but meh.
EDIT: Oh an Invincible, why did they bother changing the Icon if they aren't going to change the animation to match. Fire Arrow's Icon too.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - 66alex66 - 2011-04-20
Why not just make it so party buffs give exp when you cast it on people who don't have them yet? Sure that could be abused, but 1k per buff wouldn't hurt in compare to what bishops are doing now. Also increase the exp when healing party members.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - donovan - 2011-04-20
66alex66 Wrote:Why not just make it so party buffs give exp when you cast it on people who don't have them yet? Sure that could be abused, but 1k per buff wouldn't hurt in compare to what bishops are doing now. Also increase the exp when healing party members.
Sure this could be abused? Why bother hacking with this, dumb idea.
Buff, dispel buff, Buff, dispel buff, rinse, repeat.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Teppi - 2011-04-20
iamflip Wrote:Have you even played a healer class in Maple before? Seriously?I don't remember it being so fast pre-BB thanks to loads of people that didn't want to party at Himes and other places. Sure, post-BB, things are much easier, but when you look at the big picture, we're the one's being shafted, having to rely on parties just to keep up with everyone. Sure, we can party and buff people and stuff at LHC, but that's all we can do. We can't damage mobs effectively, so what ends up happening is us always leeching.
And hell, if that's how things end up going to be, THEN MAKE IT pineappleING WORTHWHILE FOR US TO BE IN THOSE KINDS OF POSITIONS OFTEN. And I don't see that happening because at this rate, we are gonna lag behind because in the end, those that make more damage get more EXP. And when is a good time to party? LHC? No, they're gonna nerf the party play bonus there. Monster Park? You have to be joking. Bosses? Maybe, but you don't tend to boss often.
It sucks hard. A lot of this sucks real hard.
yes i played pre-bb. i played it since beta, so i went through pre-3rd job and everything. yes i've been through dtpt, the orange version of dt (forgot name), grim party (and how kage was OMG RICH), vkpt, goby party, squid pt and hime party. being through all of that, not wanting to party? i'm sorry but u haven't been there then. it was extremely easy for me to find party as a priest because there are so many places that bishops are wanted. grim party was easy to find with f/p, wks, and dks. goby, squid, viking party i can just cc and find a party right away, himes it was super easy with dks, ils and wks. so i dont know where've u been with the "not being able to find a party" or "not being fast". the other solo classes (like wks, hermits, rangers) were the slow levelers and they kept envying priests with the fast lvling. and trust me, i enjoyed the parties when i was going up and down maps to give support skills to others. that's where interactions happen and that's where i made maple friends. that's the part i love about being a priest pre-4th job
speaking of pre-4th job, nexon should design maps like vkpt, gpt, and squid pt again, where there are multiple platforms and players have to use 5-10 hits to kill monsters. the party system back then works really well and it was actually fun
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - LegendGospel - 2011-04-20
cronnoponno Wrote:Wizet didn't make Bishops so that they can be self-sufficient all-round dps'ers, healers, and robotic buffers.
Unlike all other classes, which is a clear problem. See it now?
cronnoponno Wrote:Clerics were clearly made with the idea of support, you can't use their poor execution as an excuse to suddenly demand they make it into a damage dealer class.
I can demand to fix what is broken.
This is broken:
-Cast 3 or 4 support skills for other players, which takes a few seconds. Then have nothing worth to do.
-Gain BRUTALLY less exp than ALL the other jobs in the game. 30%+ exp/h LOWER than all other jobs.
-Have a gameplay that consists of hanging on a rope most of the time.
cronnoponno Wrote:But instead of giving them a better DPS skill to make them self-reliant, when they could simply give them better support mechanics
Maple? Support mechanics? lol'd
To give Bishops "support mechanics" would involve making something as crazy as the guy above suggested. That would give Bishops good support mechanics, but break the rest of the game for everyone. That's not the solution.
This is Maple's design, no other:
Can do good damage? Good.
Can't do good damage? hang on a rope. (Or spam heal, which isn't terribly useful given how crappy exp heal gives you. But they can't make heal exp higher, or there'd be DK leech, lol...)
I'm not complaining about Bishops being WEAK, they should be the WEAKEST class, I AGREE WITH YOU. But they are... Far. Too. Weak. Unless you have 3000+ pot INT, that is. I'm complaining about not being able to level at the speed of other 4th jobbers because we can't do CRAP.
cronnoponno Wrote:Or maybe we should give warriors ranged skills? Everyone knows range > Melee in all situations, especially now that you can ''range'' up close. Lets just remove that to, Melee just has little to no way of working.
Nice try. But you can deal good enough damage to level with long range attacks and melee. While you deal a fraction of the damage with a Bishop. So lolno.
In short:
Cheesecake Wrote:Instead of redesigning the games function to cater to one classes needs, redesign the class to meet the games needs.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Sorien - 2011-04-20
66alex66 Wrote:Why not just make it so party buffs give exp when you cast it on people who don't have them yet? Sure that could be abused, but 1k per buff wouldn't hurt in compare to what bishops are doing now. Also increase the exp when healing party members.
Rather than doing that, Nexon could try something like making monsters have a secondary pool of experience that can only be accessed by aiding party members.
As and example:
Say in LHC, as it is now, a Bishop goes to Bearwolves and a party member kills one of the enemies, gaining 50k exp and then 150k bonus exp. That party member took 20k or so damage total while fighting the Bearwolf and the bishop did all the healing, as well as gave the party member a large slew of buffs. Along with the base exp and party bonus exp, the bishop would gain something like 40k exp or possibly more from the hidden exp pool because of all the buffing and healing.
Doing something like that would at least give Bishops an incentive to go and actually do something with a party for training, rather than sitting on a rope and giving Holy Symbol at everyone's beck and call.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Shidoshi - 2011-04-20
Sorien Wrote:I'm pretty sure everyone that's been posting is aware of that fact. Mist Explosion is still pretty crazy though, especially if two or three mist clouds are placed close enough to the same enemy to hit it with all of them.
It doesn't work like that, it's impossible to make it hit more than once every 10 seconds on the same monster.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Sorien - 2011-04-20
Shidoshi Wrote:It doesn't work like that, it's impossible to make it hit more than once every 10 seconds on the same monster.
Oh, my mistake then. I was under the impression that Mist Explosion worked the same way as Meso Explosion.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Abysseon - 2011-04-20
Sorien Wrote:Oh, my mistake then. I was under the impression that Mist Explosion worked the same way as Meso Explosion.
If that was the case than they'll be one of the most broken classes... >.>
I/L at Leviathan:
[video=youtube;U0T24izLyGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0T24izLyGs[/video]
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - cronnoponno - 2011-04-20
Legend Gospel, all they have to do about that is change the EXP ratio, this whole issue would never have been a problem if people weren't so ASSHURT that others who were of no importance to them simply got easier level ups because they decide to sit and leech. I already said this in an earlier post.
All you did was complain about what I said, and didn't even offer any real help that would change the situation. Back then, I always heard everyone say they wanted to be a cleric because they liked supporting, they liked helping in an indirect way that didn't involve help bashing skulls, and they were really useful. Nexon made this class into a support class, and there are fine ways to promote support.
For example, what if they were able to do something like, I don't know, use skills that required them to remain stationary while providing buffs to everyone within a certain distance from themselves? It's a similar concept to the ''Aura's'' that battle mage uses, but we could give these cooler, and more interesting effects. What about erecting holy idols (like dark lightning, only light), that heal everyone within the vicinity over time, and THIS can actually heal zombify, but not be as broken as ''HEAL HEAL HEAL'' through it? What if they could do both? For example, setting up this ''healing'' idol, on one side of the map, then using the stationary spell in order to do whatever effect for the other people on the other side of the map? This way, if anyone is seduced, they'll walk into the holy idol, and end up healing themselves.
There are plenty of ''priest-like'' things you can make out of a bishop, that would make them interesting and important, and even add a unique concept to bossing, in fact, my idea makes sense because battle mages seem to be pretty opposite to bishops(dark looking genesis, partial support), why not have a unique ''aura'' method themselves?
You guys(and Nexon is equally guilty) are not thinking good enough, it CAN be done, and bishops CAN be made an interesting class.
To further add on to this, what if they had a ''keydown'' skill that works like the old battleship? Imagine that, sort of like smoke screen, only it has it's own reserve HP that regenerates over time when not being used, and blocks status effects and damage? That would be a REAL support skill, that takes actual skill to use. Imagine being able to shield your party members at will, from serious threats from bosses, so long as you're not stupid and spam the shield. Hell, to make it even more worthwhile, make it block 1/1's(but make it do actual damage).
Think of it as like a puppet, that works for the party? That'd be a great support skill, wouldn't you agree?
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Kalovale - 2011-04-20
The idea of support in Maple has always been a myth. People saw "Cleric" and assumed supportive role, they said they liked being supportive, they never knew they were not at all supportive.
Perhaps they were, when Heal actually mattered, LPQ, OPQ, Himes and what not. Things changed. Meso was on multiple occasions generated like diarrhea, inflation on a lucky drop led to the super ease of access to unlimited pot supply. Boom, nobody cares for Heal anymore.
I would say that as a HB/Sed mule, I've been a whole lot more crucially supportive to the HT business than any Bishop could wish to be. This is, of course, just a mind refresher as to what support really is in Maple.
A note I'd also like to make is that old school Priests did level way faster than other classes, and with way less difficulty as well. Sure, at Himes, you're jealous of us who get the bigger portion of the cake (wasn't that much, really, just 1.5x more than you get), but if you cared enough to go look for a SQPT, or if you've ever observed a F/P at Grims, you'd better appreciate what you'd got going.
Then, I don't feel the need to point out the prime time of Bishophood.
Sure, things are looking a little ugly now, but that's always been the case with Nexon, take Archer D/Cing at random against their wish for example, that lasted, what? 2 years? peach and moan all you like, at the end of the day, you're just going to have to live with it.
I'm all for bitching though. I think they do have the right.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - cronnoponno - 2011-04-20
The fact that Nexon made their own game broken does not mean that Clerics were not intended for support. Bards in latale are still useful for healing despite the fact that you can just spam astro pots and add another attacker to the group, they're still support, Alchemists in Grand Chase were completely over-ruled because they utterly destroyed the balance in that game farther than Maple has to their own, but they're still ''support''.
You guys aren't thinking wildly enough here, there are plenty of things Nexon can do to make a really bitching support class, although I can't dictate what you guys want, if you bishops really just want to be a clone of a mediocre(or equal) magician with no real unique or diverse nature to it, just to feel slightly more important than you are, I guess I can't reason with you then.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Malthe - 2011-04-20
cronnoponno Wrote:The fact that Nexon made their own game broken does not mean that Clerics were not intended for support. Bards in latale are still useful for healing despite the fact that you can just spam astro pots and add another attacker to the group, they're still support, Alchemists in Grand Chase were completely over-ruled because they utterly destroyed the balance in that game farther than Maple has to their own, but they're still ''support''.
You guys aren't thinking wildly enough here, there are plenty of things Nexon can do to make a really bitching support class, although I can't dictate what you guys want, if you bishops really just want to be a clone of a mediocre(or equal) magician with no real unique or diverse nature to it, just to feel slightly more important than you are, I guess I can't reason with you then.
Did anybody say bishops weren't intended for support?
IIRC, people have said that the support simply doesnt work.
Also it doesnt fucking matter how wildly WE think since it's nexon who change the game in the end.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Dusk - 2011-04-20
Bishops are clearly intended to be a support class, because Nexon thinks it's justified to make them do like 30% of the damage that everyone else does. There are just a lot of fundamental challenges to the existence of a support class in the game, and most of them have already been covered in this thread.
Recap:
- Can't have only one support class in a game with 20+ classes
- Supporting abilities aren't enhanced by stats
- Dumb health system
- Dumb boss design
- In order for support to be wanted, you have to make solo play much less viable for non-support classes
- Solo play should always be viable. No one spends ALL their time in an MMO grouped. Damage is way too big of a factor in any solo activity in Maple, though, and whatever a support class can contribute to or receive from a party does not balance that.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - byakugan - 2011-04-20
Abysseon Wrote:[video=youtube;U0T24izLyGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0T24izLyGs[/video]
Abysseon Wrote:[video=youtube;q0MXp1loGo8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0MXp1loGo8[/video]
Comparing both videos F/P are obviously ahead with Mist eruption, but the gap is not that huge.
What needs to be nerfed on Mist Eruption is the multipler bonus given by DoT's. I wonder how loweing it from 1.5 to 1.3 would work.
[1.2.379] More Magician Tweaks - Atruya - 2011-04-20
If that F/P would have casted two Mists, the ME would probably 1 shot it.
Same with the pap vid, you can easily cast 4 mists in the room and have them all hit pap.
Or doesn't it work that way?