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+--- Thread: Moderation Enforced (/showthread.php?tid=56837)
Moderation Enforced - KhainiWest - 2012-08-12
Locked Wrote:The only pathetic part I see in this thread is how discussion is encouraged but nothing can be done about it. I mentioned Reddit earlier in my posts and a subreddit that did this (/r/BestOf) just had an experiment for a week to see higher enforced moderation and gave the users the ability to form their opinions to change the ruling and lay their case. 5 days into the week they ran a poll to see who liked the enforced rules and then 2 days later the stricter moderation won. Some people are unhappy sure, but it collectively got the most votes for the change. Unfortunately here in Southperry discussion here about recent changes doesn't lead to anything nor will it ever. You can say all you want but your statements will never change the stubbornness of the rule placement here.
I still am curious of what I said over at post 100 though, which was ignored:
I am, I dislike both players and feel their opinion should be stripped away. It was bad enough tolerating them on basil. Also this is not as dramatic you are making it. You think they are going to block regular's posts for hour's to double check to see his range is legitimate? No, it's to make sure that questionable posts avoid 8 pages of conflict that would result in clean up that could lead to even more drama, such as "Why was he banned and why not him".
Perspective man, perspective
Moderation Enforced - Dark Link - 2012-08-12
I like this. That's right, I'm for this!
I got annoyed at the ban evading.
Hatorade for all.
lol @ these weird ass arguments. Seriously? Complaining OVER A TOPIC TITLE?
Moderation Enforced - Locked - 2012-08-12
KhainiWest Wrote:I am, I dislike both players and feel their opinion should be stripped away. It was bad enough tolerating them on basil. Also this is not as dramatic you are making it. You think they are going to block regular's posts for hour's to double check to see his range is legitimate? No, it's to make sure that questionable posts avoid 8 pages of conflict that would result in clean up that could lead to even more drama, such as "Why was he banned and why not him".
Perspective man, perspective
My point was that this was unnecessary because it only targeted a single user who won't even be coming back. It's almost like a long successful troll or something and Eos fell for the bait. It also sets a bad precedence on how this forum is going. What's next? Moderated replies for everything else? I doubt it'll happen but that thought is always going to be there now since that change is being insinuated. I mean Eos can say all he wants and say he has over a million cases of this happening with his multiple ban evasions but I browse these forums a lot and I have never even seen it. I've never seen anyone except Sushi go out of their way to post something that they're proud of and this happened because of him.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
Locked Wrote:The only pathetic part I see in this thread is how discussion is encouraged but nothing can be done about it.
Locked Wrote:Unfortunately here in Southperry discussion here about recent changes doesn't lead to anything nor will it ever. You can say all you want but your statements will never change the stubbornness of the rule placement here.
With that attitude and nothing to back up your view points but DONT WANT, you're absolutely right. Until something is demonstrated to be more burdensome or harmful, or unnecessary, no, we're not going to scrap it just because the vocal minority complain. You've seen multiple discussions on changes impact how they were implemented, but you choose to take this stance because it furthers how you want to believe things work so that you can be angry.
[quote=Locked]So who exactly are these offenders of ban evasion since Southperry has so many of them?
I ignored it as irrelevant, but since you're not going to let go;
In recent memory; Harrison, Typhoon, Patchouli / Yotsuba / Spidey, Shengz, SexPistols / King, Metaseraphim, Gregory/Zeno, NeoVicous.
Now exactly what value did that list of names give you?
Oh, I guess from your previous post that list of names doesn't matter, because clearly if you didn't personally experience it it means it wasn't really a problem. Not that it's because the mods had to spend days on end cleaning up and playing whack a mole.
Moderation Enforced - KhainiWest - 2012-08-12
Locked Wrote:My point was that this was unnecessary because it only targeted a single user who won't even be coming back. It's almost like a long successful troll or something and Eos fell for the bait. It also sets a bad precedence on how this forum is going. What's next? Moderated replies for everything else? I doubt it'll happen but that thought is always going to be there now since that change is being insinuated. I mean Eos can say all he wants and say he has over a million cases of this happening with his multiple ban evasions but I browse these forums a lot and I have never even seen it. I've never seen anyone except Sushi go out of their way to post something that they're proud of and this happened because of him.
I know of 4 people who fit this category and it's pretty random. Unless sushi doesn't like rya either and that's who was messaging me. Honestly I believe you, I don't think he'll come back, but it doesn't just take care of that single problem, it takes care of flame bait images that are screaming illegitimacy. I doubt this change will even impact our daily posting lives, frankly it's a forum, the administrator is trying to exercise control as someone has proven there are people who are unnecessarily persistent.
Moderation Enforced - Locked - 2012-08-12
Eos Wrote:With that attitude and nothing to back up your view points but DONT WANT, you're absolutely right. Until something is demonstrated to be more burdensome or harmful, or unnecessary, no, we're not going to scrap it just because the vocal minority complain. You've seen multiple discussions on changes impact how they were implemented, but you choose to take this stance because it furthers how you want to believe things work so that you can be angry.
I presented my view point, you digressed it, I stopped talking about it until other people brought it up.
Quote:In recent memory; Harrison, Typhoon, Patchouli / Yotsuba / Spidey, Shengz, SexPistols / King, Metaseraphim, Gregory/Zeno, NeoVicous.
Now exactly what value did that list of names give you?
I valued the transparency, what a shame right?
I always thought Killed was Typhoon, Kunagisa was Spidey and MetaSeraphim is still here. How many of those people you listed actually caused a problem in those threads though?
KhainiWest Wrote:I know of 4 people who fit this category and it's pretty random. Unless sushi doesn't like rya either and that's who was messaging me. Honestly I believe you, I don't think he'll come back, but it doesn't just take care of that single problem, it takes care of flame bait images that are screaming illegitimacy. I doubt this change will even impact our daily posting lives, frankly it's a forum, the administrator is trying to exercise control as someone has proven there are people who are unnecessarily persistent.
Sushi doesn't like Rya and chances are he's been the one PMing you.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
Locked Wrote:I always thought Killed was Typhoon, Kunagisa was Spidey and MetaSeraphim is still here. How many of those people you listed actually caused a problem in those threads though?
So are Greg and Mark, doesn't mean they didn't have periods where they were problem users. If you think this is just about those specific threads you're not understanding very clearly what's going on here. We've systematically removed methods and reasons for recreating. These were some of the gaps that still remained, as demonstrated by this offender. Remove the incentive, remove the problem.
Your insistence that there is no transparency here is absolute crap when you consider that you continue to make those claims in threads that exist solely to keep people apprised of what's going on here. Do you think we needed to explain that these threads were being moderated or why?. Seriously, what do you think we're hiding?
Do you want us to post every single infraction and moderation action in one giant public page? Would even that satisfy you? And what point does that cease being transparency and become invasion of privacy?
Moderation Enforced - Locked - 2012-08-12
Eos Wrote:So are Greg and Mark, doesn't mean they didn't have periods where they were problem users. If you think this is just about those specific threads you're not understanding very clearly what's going on here. We've systematically removed methods and reasons for recreating. These were some of the gaps that still remained, as demonstrated by this offender. Remove the incentive, remove the problem.
Your insistence that there is no transparency here is absolute crap when you consider that you continue to make those claims in threads that exist solely to keep people apprised of what's going on here. Do you think we needed to explain that these threads were being moderated or why?. Seriously, what do you think we're hiding?
Do you want us to post every single infraction and moderation action in one giant public page? Would even that satisfy you? And what point does that cease being transparency and become invasion of privacy?
No.
I would just enjoy when you use statements such as "this has been happening for a long time" to at least say who. I couldn't care less about every infraction made in this place. Certain things are meant to be private and I respect that.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
Locked Wrote:No.
I would just enjoy when you use statements such as "this has been happening for a long time" to at least say who. I couldn't care less about every infraction made in this place. Certain things are meant to be private and I respect that.
Then you have some serious cognitive dissonance going here.
Make up your mind on what you want, because all it looks like to every rational person watching you do these tangents is that you have some seriously frelcked up perceived authority complex.
Moderation Enforced - Vanderlust - 2012-08-12
You really don't have to look any further than this thread to see how "huge" this problem is.
Just read from the beginning. Almost every single comment is something along the lines of "I don't really care" or "this doesn't affect me" or even "this is a bad idea". I've been here for I guess around half a year and I barely recognize any of those names that you mentioned being a problem. Not only that I can't recall any names past "sushi" and "rya" myself and nobody has brought up more recent names either. Preemptively removing the incentive for bad behavior is a nice idea, but clearly the predominant opinion is that it's not really a huge enough issue in the first place to warrant that.
Yes, this is not a democracy and you can do whatever you want because it's your site. However, I feel like you've misjudged how much this solution helps vs how much it takes away from the user experience. Mods have lives, they're not going to be here to watch/approve every single discussion that's here. Most people like me just visit the forum in short intervals at a time between other activities; having to wait even just 30 min to reply to something kills any potential discussion.
Moderation Enforced - maplefreak26 - 2012-08-12
I'm probably gonna get flamed/attacked (or just completely ignored, which is good) by saying this but whatever you do, I highly doubt Eos would change his mind after it has been done, especially when he didn't ask for your opinion.
He's just not that kind of person, if you haven't already noticed.
Arguing about this is going to get you nowhere and will just be a complete waste of the site's bandwidth and Eos' time.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
Vanderlust Wrote:I barely recognize any of those names that you mentioned being a problem.
You're not a moderator, you don't see the crap we do. The less you see of it, the better we've done at either cleaning it up, or preventing it from happening.
Moderation Enforced - Locked - 2012-08-12
Eos Wrote:Then you have some serious cognitive dissonance going here.
Make up your mind on what you want, because all it looks like to every rational person watching you do these tangents is that you have some seriously fucked up perceived authority complex.
I got depressed about 31 hours into staying awake and decided I didn't want to post anymore but kept doing so anyway, if you're curious.
What do you think I want? From the entire beginning of the thread the only thing I was saying is that this was made because of one person.
Moderation Enforced - Vanderlust - 2012-08-12
Eos Wrote:You're not a moderator, you don't see the crap we do. The less you see of it, the better we've done at either cleaning it up, or preventing it from happening.
Yes, but if it's truly a big enough problem to make a change that will affect every other user on the forum, at the very least, it should be a problem for the majority of the forum users as well as the staff right? And if it's truly the case that the moderating is so good that nobody sees it at all, then why change what you're doing? Everything outside of a couple exceptions seems to be fine.
If keeping up this moderating is so taxing on moderators/their time that it's worth filtering the entire forum, then filtering a few threads is obviously not going to cut it and there are bigger problems and most definitely better solutions here.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
Vanderlust Wrote:Yes, but if it's truly a big enough problem to make a change that will affect every other user on the forum, at the very least, it should be a problem for the majority of the forum users as well as the staff right?
If our message to users is that nothing they do will ever be punished as long as they're more persistent than the moderators how do you think that will effect the rest of the user population?
Locked Wrote:What do you think I want? From the entire beginning of the thread the only thing I was saying is that this was made because of one person.
It was made because the most recent person to do it revealed an obvious incentive for future occurrences and this was the best deterrent we could come up with, since the threat of continual banning and after-the-fact-removal clearly were not working. You've got a poor grasp of the big picture.
When a situation occurs, or recurs, the process is very straightforward.
We evaluate how to clean it up, and we evaluate how to prevent it from recurring and whether or not it's potentially something other's are likely to do for similar reasons. Since this particular crime is driven by ego and the people who try to prove they're above banning or too smart to ban, or whatever else, are primarily driven by ego this was determined to have a high potential for drawing future abuse if not safeguarded in some manner.
Back to the actual topic since we're several pages in now;
We emplace sanctions like this with whatever tools we currently have available, or can readily obtain, while we evaluate long term solutions.
I was perfectly clear in the OP that this is not something we wanted to do, and something we hope to have to do minimally. I did not say it was forever. I've specifically pointed out that we intend to revisit it based on how burdensome and how effective it is, and it should go without saying that while it's in effect we've already been looking at ways to improve it or more effective alternatives for long term.
The people who keep making claims about changing my mind or things being written in stone are misguided on how things work. Provide me a better viable solution, or when we can work out one for ourselves, things will change. Change is a constant here and anyone who doesn't realize that hasn't been paying attention the past two years.
Moderation Enforced - Vanderlust - 2012-08-12
What that sounds like is it's necessary to punish the entire user base because you hope the offenders will think twice because their actions affect the entire forum. In real life scenarios, that might be true, but in the anonymity of the internet, that's never going to work.
Of course there are better solutions. I don't know what tools/resources you have, but off the top of my head: having a post limit/account time limit for posting pictures sounds like the easiest one to implement. That will force new users to learn the rules of the forum/post a bit before even touching those threads and for abusers it's no longer worth their time to continue posting at that quality.
Moderation Enforced - Fiel - 2012-08-12
Vanderlust Wrote:having a post limit/account time limit for posting pictures sounds like the easiest one to implement. That will force new users to learn the rules of the forum/post a bit before even touching those threads and for abusers it's no longer worth their time to continue posting at that quality.
That's actually a fairly poor idea:
1) Eos's implementation only affects a few threads. Your implementation would affect the entire forum experience.
2) People who troll and have huge egos would just stop posting pictures. It wouldn't solve anything. There are already pic limitations in place (2MB), number of photos per post restrictions, and size restrictions to prevent images from bleeding out of the post divs.
3) The moderated queue is an already built-in feature of vBulletin. Your feature would require custom coding. I understand you don't know what resources are available.
The purpose of what Eos has done is to prevent certain users from posting in a thread. I don't understand how a limit for posting pictures achieves that.
Moderation Enforced - Eos - 2012-08-12
This isn't a punishment, it's a security feature. It should be virtually transparent to the end user, except as a delay between them posting and their post appearing, in a few specific threads.
Moderation Enforced - Vanderlust - 2012-08-12
Fiel Wrote:That's actually a fairly poor idea:
1) Eos's implementation only affects a few threads. Your implementation would affect the entire forum experience.
2) People who troll and have huge egos would just stop posting pictures. It wouldn't solve anything. There are already pic limitations in place (2MB), number of photos per post restrictions, and size restrictions to prevent images from bleeding out of the post divs.
3) The moderated queue is an already built-in feature of vBulletin. Your feature would require custom coding. I understand you don't know what resources are available.
The purpose of what Eos has done is to prevent certain users from posting in a thread. I don't understand how a limit for posting pictures achieves that.
1) It would affect new users only and leave veteran users (really the ones complaining and most affected by the filter) unaffected. The current one indiscriminately hinders the forum experience.
2) If that's the case then they can post/troll anywhere. I thought the major problem was in those threads they can freely just post a pic for the sole purpose of bragging and that was the whole point of filtering those specific threads.
My understanding was that these users only signed up in order to post in threads like those (which generally require pictures). It definitely stops what is theoretically the problem for Eos. Not only that, it works as a general solution as well. Accounts are more valuable,therefore there's a bit more to lose (such as your time) if you're going to troll/be an idiot.
Moderation Enforced - Justin - 2012-08-12
Vanderlust Wrote:1) It would affect new users only and leave veteran users (really the ones complaining and most affected by the filter) unaffected. The current one indiscriminately hinders the forum experience.
I believe Eos already stated that he couldn't pull this off without a lot of ass-backwards workarounds.