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+--- Thread: [1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time (/showthread.php?tid=21364)
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Bomber - 2010-01-07
Stereo Wrote:How does 1hkoing help? If I remember right, most maps have respawn times in the 8-10 second range anyway, and even fast maps like the Skele minidungeon around 5 seconds. If you're really just sitting in one spot, then half the time you cast ultimate, half the time you wait for stuff to respawn.
Blizzard freezes, if you 2hko they're not going anywhere. And hitting over 70.5k per Blizzard with all the elemental boosts is not that tough. If it takes 1300 magic to 1hko,I can see level 130s being able to get the magic to 2hko (obviously they'd want to have high level Blizzard too)
Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.
Do we think Paladin updates are over the top yet?
Current max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 22000 with ACB, translating to 6m exp/hour
New max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 65000 with ACB
Fu'ck! Ima be doing of 70ks xD
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - TamilTiger1 - 2010-01-07
Shidoshi Wrote:If what you are suggesting is just jump casting, like what archers do, then it would make no difference in the range of the skill.
It would count as if you cast it from the ground where you were.
You can see the difference if you try yourself. Looks like you only have about 4 more levels to go
In the skele mini dungeon, you can't reach 2nd platform from top when you cast ultimates from the platform below that unless you jump cast. Jump casting allows you to reach all 3 platforms at same time. Archer jump cast is a bit different, i've used that before too. The arrows goes as if you shot from ground even though the character is jumping over the arrow.
I havn't read up everything on this argument about ToT. But if melee characters get both best exp and money out of the same place at the same time shouldn't mages get the same benefit? Why should only mages have to hunt and train separately? thats spending twice the time as anyone else.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Dual - 2010-01-07
TamilTiger1 Wrote:I havn't read up everything on this argument about ToT. But if melee characters get both best exp and money out of the same place at the same time shouldn't mages get the same benefit? Why should only mages have to hunt and train separately? thats spending twice the time as anyone else.
Melee classes get the best exp for melee classes at O4. Mages get far more exp than that by just standing in skeles spamming ultimates.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Lozmaster - 2010-01-07
DualReaver Wrote:Melee classes get the best exp for melee classes at O4. Mages get far more exp than that by just standing in skeles spamming ultimates.
I get more soloing on my BM at oblivion 4 than at skeles/newts as well
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Hazzy - 2010-01-07
JoeTang Wrote:Magic²/1000
Oh... *facepalm*
In that case, my math says 1600 mAtk would be needed to 1hKO Chief Oblivions. Bit of an over estimate though, since I ignored INT.
Still not for the low leveled.... <3
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - dpeterlin - 2010-01-07
Hazzy Wrote:Oh... *facepalm*
In that case, my math says 1600 mAtk would be needed to 1hKO Chief Oblivions. Bit of an over estimate though, since I ignored INT.
Still not for the low leveled.... <3
I think someone was closer with 1300
Currently 1300 is the magic number for skeles--- gives you 85k min
for 140k with an ele advantage youd need to hit 93k on a neutral --
with a better amp and blizz that 8k should come on its own -- dont really wanna run the numbers but I'd say anyone 1 hitting skeles now will 1 hit CoGs once the update comes -- and if not it'll be a matter of a only a few more magic --
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - MysticHLE - 2010-01-08
Stereo Wrote:How does 1hkoing help? If I remember right, most maps have respawn times in the 8-10 second range anyway, and even fast maps like the Skele minidungeon around 5 seconds. If you're really just sitting in one spot, then half the time you cast ultimate, half the time you wait for stuff to respawn.
Blizzard freezes, if you 2hko they're not going anywhere. And hitting over 70.5k per Blizzard with all the elemental boosts is not that tough. If it takes 1300 magic to 1hko,I can see level 130s being able to get the magic to 2hko (obviously they'd want to have high level Blizzard too)
Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.
Do we think Paladin updates are over the top yet?
Current max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 22000 with ACB, translating to 6m exp/hour
New max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 65000 with ACB
Yay 92k ACB! xD 2 hit KOing up to (rushed) mobs of 6...now that makes me feel that I'm on par with AMs using ults there. >=D
EDIT: Dang it, based on some new calculations and videos on the latest official KMS...it seems that the updates are actually not that over the top as we thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jr3sb_rsb4
Quoted by Van from SW.net...it seems that the current formula for Paladins is as follows:
1) Charges will be multiplicative at their normal bases. (1.5 Holy * 1.25 Lightning)
2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)
3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)
4) Dual Charging overall increases damage for all Pally skills and situations. It essentially gives up some of a Pally's elemental advantage for more damage on neutral mobs.
Guess Anegos still belong to BMs.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Kalovale - 2010-01-08
Shidoshi Wrote:If what you are suggesting is just jump casting, like what archers do, then it would make no difference in the range of the skill.
It would count as if you cast it from the ground where you were.
TamilTiger1 Wrote:This was possible for a very long time, possibly from the beginning. I think people just didn't use it because its hard to do using Ultimate key alone without putting it in macro. Its very simple when you add the ultimate into a macro (just need to put it in once) and jump atk, you can do it 100% of the time. Without macro you'll have to do it at a perfect time, i've tried this way but its not worth that much effort to hit a few extra monsters. This is how you hit bottom 3 platforms of skele mini dungeon
I believe this buddy implies the macro's property of "register and cast immediately when possible."
If you played a Warrior, you'll notice that Rush does not register when in mid-air, but a macro'ed Rush does, hence you slide away as soon as you touch the ground. Same for Combat Step, really helpful when paired with the sliding motion + non-directional jumps.
So I'm assuming jump-ult means registering the ultimate when in mid-air (thus able to hit both plats) but the animation gets cast upon landing.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - IllegallySane - 2010-01-08
MysticHLE Wrote:Yay 92k ACB! xD 2 hit KOing up to (rushed) mobs of 6...now that makes me feel that I'm on par with AMs using ults there. >=D
EDIT: Dang it, based on some new calculations and videos on the latest official KMS...it seems that the updates are actually not that over the top as we thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jr3sb_rsb4
Quoted by Van from SW.net...it seems that the current formula for Paladins is as follows:
1) Charges will be multiplicative at their normal bases. (1.5 Holy * 1.25 Lightning)
2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)
3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)
4) Dual Charging overall increases damage for all Pally skills and situations. It essentially gives up some of a Pally's elemental advantage for more damage on neutral mobs.
Guess Anegos still belong to BMs.
But again. What this DOES mean for Paladins is that they are way stronger on neutral mobs, but because there is only a 25% elemental boost, it means they are not so reliant on elemental advantages in order to maximize damage. Of course, 1,359% damage per Blast at Anego (comapared to previously 1155%) is still nothing to scoff at. Mixed blessings, or finally made Paladins where they belong, using elementals to attack enemies (stronger fighting neutral mobs), but aren't screwed like AMs/Bishops when the enemy is strong to one element (that's where the 25% elemental advantage boost comes in. Paladin's damage is far more stable in the range it can vary than it was before)? Of course, I wouldn't mind a duo weakness boost, so either way it works in favor of the Paladin.
Note of course Heroes Brandish does 988% per target in the time it takes to do a single Blast. 1,015%~1087.5% Blasts > 988% Brandishes. If there is ever even one single elemental weakness on the boss, it's game over for the Hero for sure. The only way Heroes can beat Paladins now is if there's a boss that hates both Holy and Fire so they are forced to use Ice + Lightning Charge on a neutral mob (797% Ice/Lit on neutral). Then of course add the fun of ACB. 612%~656% per hit on neutral mobs (compared to 490% before), to 765%~820% on elementally weak (previously 735%) . Again I am calculating with both Fire/Lit and Holy/Lit charges.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - MysticHLE - 2010-01-08
IllegallySane Wrote:But again. What this DOES mean for Paladins is that they are way stronger on neutral mobs, but because there is only a 25% elemental boost, it means they are not so reliant on elemental advantages in order to maximize damage. Of course, 1,359% damage per Blast at Anego (comapared to previously 1155%) is still nothing to scoff at. Mixed blessings, or finally made Paladins where they belong, using elementals to attack enemies (stronger fighting neutral mobs), but aren't screwed like AMs/Bishops when the enemy is strong to one element (that's where the 25% elemental advantage boost comes in. Paladin's damage is far more stable in the range it can vary than it was before)? Of course, I wouldn't mind a duo weakness boost, so either way it works in favor of the Paladin.
Note of course Heroes Brandish does 988% per target in the time it takes to do a single Blast. 1,015%~1087.5% Blasts > 988% Brandishes. If there is ever even one single elemental weakness on the boss, it's game over for the Hero for sure. The only way Heroes can beat Paladins now is if there's a boss that hates both Holy and Fire so they are forced to use Ice + Lightning Charge on a neutral mob (797% Ice/Lit on neutral). Then of course add the fun of ACB. 612%~656% per hit on neutral mobs (compared to 490% before), to 765%~820% on elementally weak (previously 735%) . Again I am calculating with both Fire/Lit and Holy/Lit charges.
Yup, your assessment seems right on the mark. ^_^
I wonder if elemental advantage was changed for AMs then...'cause if it is, I think it would make them actually weaker per ult compared to before - even with the new basic m. atk boosts? o.o
Also, it makes me wonder if elemental resistance was changed as well.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Lozmaster - 2010-01-08
Quote:2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)
3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)
Woah, ok. In that case, I have another question, if it only counts one element, and its only a half multiplier, then I wonder what happens if the monster is resistant to 2 elements.
From this, since the attack is only half elemental,and can only recieve one elemental boost/penalty I wonder if it'd only recieve a decrease in damage of *0.75 multiplier (similar to inferno, which is only half elemental), seeing as it only gets half the boost now
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - TamilTiger1 - 2010-01-08
MysticHLE Wrote:Yup, your assessment seems right on the mark. ^_^
I wonder if elemental advantage was changed for AMs then...'cause if it is, I think it would make them actually weaker per ult compared to before - even with the new basic m. atk boosts? o.o
Also, it makes me wonder if elemental resistance was changed as well.
I think the only reason the elemental advantage seems to be 1.25x is probably because of dual charging, kind of like comb arrow of mages in 3rd job but stronger. For archmages it makes no difference because in their 4th job they never use both element at same time.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Stereo - 2010-01-08
MysticHLE Wrote:2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)
3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)
What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?
Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB
Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.
The only place this helps is at Lightning targets, because tbh the Lightning multiplier sucks ass now.
Lightning weak target, just using Lightning: 656%/ACB
Lightning weak target, using Holy+Lightning: 820%/ACB (same % for Holy weak targets)
Holy weak target, just using Holy: 788%/ACB
Really this just balances out the Fire/Lightning/Holy charges.
Currently - Ice - 577%. Fire - 630%. Lightning - 656%. Holy - 735%.
Becomes - Ice - 601%. Fire - 766%. Lightning/Holy - 820%.
Instead of a 17% difference in dps from Fire to Holy, there's only a 7% difference. The gap to Ice actually increases, from 27% to 36%.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Shidoshi - 2010-01-08
Stereo Wrote:What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?
Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB
Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.
Because on neutrals you got nice boost.
On elemental weak you get either 1.4*1.25*1.25 = 2.1875 (dual charge) OR 1.4*1.5 = 2.1 (single charged) and you have your 4% increase
However on Neutral the increase was 25% which is quite nice
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - IllegallySane - 2010-01-08
Stereo Wrote:What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?
Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB
Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.
You forgot using just Fire ACB before the changes would have only been 630% on fire weak (16~21% boost). I think we should look at the pre-post changes rather than post changes alone.
Also, I think duo charging is just to cover your bases in terms of where you can train, and it's free damage to boot. Heck, WoW players would be estatic over a 4% DPS increase
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Stereo - 2010-01-08
IllegallySane Wrote:You forgot using just Fire ACB before the changes would have only been 630% on fire weak (16~21% boost). I think we should look at the pre-post changes rather than post changes alone.
They could have skipped dual charging entirely, made everything simpler, and I would still get that 630 to 735% boost due to the change in Fire Charge.
I'm so far behind on neutral targets that 25% isn't all that meaningful. I guess now I can beat DKs and Shadowers on neutral targets, as long as I'm using my single target skill and they use their 3-4 target skills.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Taiketo - 2010-01-08
If elements are reduced to 1.25x even when single charging, that's a HUGE nerf for paladins.
Old ACB with old holy : 735%
New ACB with new holy and new element : 656%
I don't want better neutral damage if it means weaker elemental damage.
I think elements are probably 1.5x if you single charge, and it works like comp, but eh.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Takebacker - 2010-01-08
Taiketo Wrote:If elements are reduced to 1.25x even when single charging, that's a HUGE nerf for paladins.
Old ACB with old holy : 735%
New ACB with new holy and new element : 656%
I don't want better neutral damage if it means weaker elemental damage.
I think elements are probably 1.5x if you single charge, and it works like comp, but eh.
Thought it was clear that the 1.25x advantage is only when double charging. o.o
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Dual - 2010-01-08
I'm done talking about this now. I don't even want to look in any threads about the updates anymore lol.
[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time - Baklava - 2010-01-08
Killing bosses isn't the highlight of MS.