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+--- Thread: Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report (/showthread.php?tid=57115)
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Curtiss - 2012-09-07
If there was no exam after that, the school could have just kept him there until he got his hair cut since he did break a rule (And I would find this acceptable because it wasn't important that he could leave as soon as it was over). I wouldn't care at that point because he got to sit for the exam like he should and he also gets the haircut he deserves to get for flouting the rules.
The mother would have no grounds for reasonable argument if they message her first and it also tells her that while the school is nice, it won't stand for nonsense like her kid sporting unacceptable hair again so a rule is followed, due punishment is given and no spectacles are made.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - KhainiWest - 2012-09-07
SaptaZapta Wrote:However, people here are acting as if having this law (that boys with long hair can't take the elementary school graduation test) is horrible oppression, a denial of basic human rights, and a sufficient reason to not live in Singapore. Seriously?
I thought you were referring to me with your statement, I don't feel this way so it doesn't apply to me, my mistake
SaptaZapta Wrote:You want to talk about stupid and oppressive rules?
When I was in third grade we went to Houston, Texas, for my father's post-doctorate. The school made me swear allegiance to the American flag every morning, even when they knew I could barely speak a dozen words of English, and was not an American citizen.
>Texas
That might as well be considered it's own country
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Flonne - 2012-09-07
SaptaZapta Wrote:Where will we get our Nixons and Clintons if kids don't learn they can disregard any rule they deem stupid?s-sarcasm? :l
Quote:If a law is stupid, the voters can work to change it in many ways. But as long as it is in force, they should obey it. Especially in the case of this kind of law, which may be stupid but is not that much of a hardship.
In a perfect world that would work fine, but we don't even live in what I would consider a mediocre world, at this point in time. And after the total horseshit that happened in the DNC on Wednesday, I don't even know what to think about this country anymore.
[video=youtube;eSxEy_OVVB4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSxEy_OVVB4[/video]
I don't even give a pineapple that it was for a good cause, THEY VOTED NO -THREE TIMES-, YOU DON'T OVERTURN A FUCKING VOTE JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT SOMETHING TO HAPPEN. Yes I know this is slightly offtopic, but it's pretty goddamn ontopic too if I ask me, and nothing this country has done in a very long time has pissed me off as much as this did.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - hadriel - 2012-09-07
SaptaZapta Wrote:But you said the state exam rules were not specific to a school?
Yup yup, so what I was just saying is that the hairdresser isn't responsible (as in, in any ways legally obliged or wadever) for cutting a haircut suitable for the student. If it's a case of the hairdresser failing to meet expectations or wants from the customers (e.g. supposed to do X but did Y or did not fully do X) then there are grounds to complain, and right now we don't have enough information to know for sure. If I were the mom, I'd complain about the hairdresser too =.= But generally the general barbers/hairdressers would go for the shorter haircuts for boys because they need it and they're used to cutting them so short for others too.
So just to clarify, the ministry's guidelines on uniform rules and the ministry's rules on taking examinations are very much in line with each other. You can don't cut your hair and get away with it for years, but when you are taking a national examination the invigilators, especially the chief presiding officers, have every right to remove you from the examination for failing to comply with rules.
Supposedly the teacher had given (a) letter(s) [I'm not sure of the number either] to the student to give it to the parents prior to the incident. Again we say that it was dumb for the teacher to snip first before informing the parent. Then again, it's also silly to go past the line then toe the line.
Teacher cutting the student's hair? Dumb. Putting it into the context? Even more dumb. Enforcing the rule? Not dumb. Enforcing the rule with the context (of the examination): even more not dumb. Why could he be barred from the exam: he is not following examination rule - be properly attired etc. We're not talking about the day-to-day school life - we're talking about a student who could have lost marks in a national examination for failing to adhere to rules. Serious? Hell yeah. Sure the rules might seem ridiculous or stupid to you, but they're rules. As I said: live by the rules or die from them. Maybe seriousness is not critical here, but when the enforcer of the rule is not someone from your school? Oh yeah we have plenty to be afraid of when we go for national examinations.
My teachers (well... mine...) would check our haircuts days before the examination so that the students won't get into trouble (yeah we're paranoid at times, even my teachers). So you can choose how you want to respond to the rules, but only a few choices are really wise or practical, and one of the unwise choices would be to go in with unacceptably hair. The rules are not unreasonable or irrational either - we've discussed the roots of these rules previously. So what's wrong with being strict and enforcing rules (although the case in question was done in a most inappropriate way)? Because in the first place, if he broke the uniform code rules of the examination, he'd already have failed those that belonged to the school.
If you get to bend the rules this way, you're asking for trouble. How about: you had all the time in the world leading up to the examination to cut your hair, so why wait until after the examination to cut your hair? Are you testing the invigilators? There is nothing to imply that looks are more important than content - rather its your defiance of rules that gets you into deep crap.
I'll also qualify that the chief presiding officer also has the right to let the boy go off because he/she is the enforcer of rules in this case [if the boy enters the examination room with a long haircut], or cut his hair on the spot, or make the boy show up the next day with a suitable haircut etc., amongst the many options available to the chief presiding officer. Again we say that the teacher cutting the boy's hair was not a very wise choice. So you are right: he could have gotten his haircut after the examination, but whether the CPO is going to be strict or lenient is not exactly the best gamble to risk. But the point here is: it's not all black or white, and even the strictest CPO is human and has to take into consideration the implications of his/her action - making the boy take the oral exam another day is probably the most likely outcome that a CPO would dish out after taking everything into consideration. Nonetheless, we don't kid with rules, because the repercussions are severe [it's your bloody future!] and the trouble you get into [disciplinary committee, multiple questionings] for something entirely avoidable is simply not worth it.
I mean, come on. Seriously. How damn hard is it to follow rules? We don't throw rules 1 week before exams - they take ages to get into writing. We brief students and send leaflets to parents ages before the exams. If a rule is really that damn dumb, why don't you complain or make a big fuss out of it on some national forum/talk to a minister to bring up in the parliment? There are all sorts of civilised ways of getting an outcome achieved while still playing by the rules of the game.
tl;dr: When you make a choice, is it worth it? To you? To others? Teachers' choices: not worth it. Enforcement: worth it. Parents: not really worth it. Child: not worth it, if at all. For all the trouble that he brought.
/edit: I feel the frustration of overturned voters. Feels ridiculous.
Hadriel
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - happylight - 2012-09-07
[MENTION=2088]Flonne[/MENTION];
This vid probably sums up your point better. The party conventions are pretty much scripted events.
[video=youtube;HmaE2Aez_XY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmaE2Aez_XY[/video]
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Flonne - 2012-09-07
Yeah, that video is better, since it shows the RNC did it too. It's just terrible, individual voices are supposed to matter in this fucking country.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Ryosuke - 2012-09-07
SaptaZapta Wrote:I said "haircut rule", not "haircut". The teacher was out of bounds for cutting the boy's hair, everyone agrees on it including her own principal, no point beating a dead horse.
However, people here are acting as if having this law (that boys with long hair can't take the elementary school graduation test) is horrible oppression, a denial of basic human rights, and a sufficient reason to not live in Singapore. Seriously?
You want to talk about stupid and oppressive rules?
When I was in third grade we went to Houston, Texas, for my father's post-doctorate. The school made me swear allegiance to the American flag every morning, even when they knew I could barely speak a dozen words of English, and was not an American citizen.
Oh, so you had to swear allegiance to the flag? Obviously you probably didn't really say it right, being that english wasn't your first language. So what did the Teacher in Houston Texas do? Rip out your tongue? Oops too harsh. Did she..force you to get out of the classroom until you could say it right? Did she tell you that if you didn't say it right you would never get past third grade, and couldn't take any third grade tests? I'm guessing. No.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Loose - 2012-09-07
Ryosuke Wrote:Did she..force you to get out of the classroom until you could say it right?Yes. 2nd grade, Minnesota.
Did I throw hissy fit? No, I learned the pomegranate out of that pledge and spoke it better than any of my classmates.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - happylight - 2012-09-07
I wasn't allowed to eat candy before dinner either. What an oppressive regime.
Children are forced to follow rules. When you grow up and get out of school you can get any kind of haircut you want.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Words - 2012-09-07
SaptaZapta Wrote:However, people here are acting as if having this law (that boys with long hair can't take the elementary school graduation test) is horrible oppression, a denial of basic human rights, and a sufficient reason to not live in Singapore. Seriously?
Actually, one could consider that a denial of basic human rights... some countries have article 19 in their constitutions as well, and constitution> any other law/rule. It's understandable why someone would follow this idea.
I wouldn't agree with that, though. There's a greater good in those kind of school/company rules and they weren't made to lower people's life quality.
State could (and does sometimes) recognize this greater good and side with schools so that they're allowed to enforce uniform rules.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Razmos - 2012-09-07
I was always taught that uniform rules are in force in schools to teach children about looking respectable and following dress codes and rules in their adult and/or working life. I'm not sure how different the focus on work is there, but it's still definitely something kids need to learn and respect.
This is simply an example of that. He broke the uniform rules and deserved to be punished. The rule was there for a reason and this was the consequence. (but obviously yes, the teacher did wrong)
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - hadriel - 2012-09-07
Ryosuke Wrote:Oh, so you had to swear allegiance to the flag? Obviously you probably didn't really say it right, being that english wasn't your first language. So what did the Teacher in Houston Texas do? Rip out your tongue? Oops too harsh. Did she..force you to get out of the classroom until you could say it right? Did she tell you that if you didn't say it right you would never get past third grade, and couldn't take any third grade tests? I'm guessing. No.
It's more like a ritual of sorts, something that you do everyday when you're young to get... erm... "something inside you" over time. Not something that is on the rulebook.
happylight Wrote:I wasn't allowed to eat candy before dinner either. What an oppressive regime.
Children are forced to follow rules. When you grow up and get out of school you can get any kind of haircut you want.
Actually, if you eat candy before dinner, you'll have reduced appetite and will thus eat less for dinner. Not good for a growing kid.
I have long hair now XD but it gets cut because my parents don't like it =.=
Hadriel
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Moonlapse - 2012-09-08
hadriel Wrote:It's more like a ritual of sorts, something that you do everyday when you're young to get... erm... "something inside you" over time. Not something that is on the rulebook.
Actually, if you eat candy before dinner, you'll have reduced appetite and will thus eat less for dinner. Not good for a growing kid.
I have long hair now XD but it gets cut because my parents don't like it =.=
Hadriel
I think long hair looks good in academics. :< (college and above of course)
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - hadriel - 2012-09-08
/edit: I'm removing this post in lieu of infraction because I didn't know about the +1 function in the forum =.=
Hadriel
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - FlameChocobo - 2012-09-09
hadriel Wrote:I have long hair now XD but it gets cut because my parents don't like it =.=
Hadriel
I feel you.
I wanted to have long hair since I look abysmal with short hair, but people in my relationship won't let me have long hair.
There are jobs that can't allow men to have long hair, because there are certain rules that don't allow it. It sucks, but rules are rules no matter how harsh they are.
What the teacher did to the kid though....
Spoiler
![[Image: picard-facepalm.jpg]](http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg)
Yeah... That was really stupid on the teacher's behalf.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - hadriel - 2012-09-12
Hey hey! What do you know! This thing was mentioned in newspaper again today!
http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore/EDC120913-0000020/Parents-must-show-respect-for-rules--Heng
Quote:Parents must show respect for rules: Hengby Ng Jing Yng 04:45 AM Sep 13, 2012
SINGAPORE - The woman who went to the police after her 12-year-old son's S$60 haircut was ruined before his PSLE oral exam last month received a stern response from Education Minister Heng Swee Keat yesterday.
The "simple fact" was that the boy had been reminded "over and over again" to trim his hair, said Mr Heng. When that failed, the school sent a letter to the parent.
"The mother's response was that her son was dyslexic and, therefore, forgetful. Dyslexic people are not forgetful. As one writer puts it in a media commentary, by raising such a hullabaloo, 'the mother ... did herself and her son no favours'," he said.
Citing that case, as well as a man who used a string of expletives about the teachers in his son's school, Mr Heng said the Ministry of Education (MOE) "must take a firm stand against unreasonable demands". He urged parents to be gracious to others and show respect for rules, or the younger generation will not follow suit.
"Soon, discipline will be eroded, the tone in our schools will deteriorate, and the tone in our society too," said Mr Heng, who added that good potential candidates may be turned away from being teachers.
Despite such incidents, Mr Heng noted that the majority of parents today are "supportive partners", and more help will be given to assist them in educating their children.
He launched the Parents in Education website yesterday, which contains information such as parenting tips, educational news and learning resources.
Responding to Mr Heng's comments, Madam Serene Ong - the mother involved in the hair-cut incident - told TODAY that she went to the police to file a "personal record" only after calling the MOE and on being told that it would be fine to go to the police.
Mdm Ong said: "There is no absolute right or wrong in this matter but as a parent, there should be a courtesy call from the teacher first before cutting my son's hair. We would like to work with the teachers but it also takes two hands to clap."
From what I know now, the mother is not being gracious (amongst other descriptions), the child probably is at fault for not passing the letter and warnings on to his mom, and the teacher is (still) in the wrong for not calling the parent up first before dishing a punishment.
The police part is amusing though.
/edit: Some epic quotes from the minister's full letter to the public [of which parts of it were already included in the article above]. Some are hilarious when taken out of context. Original article here: http://www.todayonline.com/CommentaryandAnalysis/Commentary/EDC120913-0000024/Helping-parents-help-their-kids-learn
Quote:'"Mr Heng, there is not one mother in Singapore who is not stressed about her child's education." And indeed, some dads are, too.'
'... when she got 80 marks in a test, her parents asked her why her cousin in a better school got 85.
So she worked very hard and, when she got 85, her parents told her that her cousin had now gotten 90! She felt that she had done her best, but it was never good enough. Thankfully she remained a very cheerful girl.'
'I [as in, Mr Heng] asked what [the high-end kindergartens] assessed, and they said they assesses language language skills and motor skills. I heard of one child who could not perform because the test was held during his naptime, and his grandparents were distraught.'
'[some schools] have a state-of-the-art supercomputer to help them to coordinate and schedule students' homework.'
'... allows students to learn to schedule their homework over the week -- an important life skill!'
'some [parents] will choose to have [their children go for] tuition even if it is not necessary, just to "make doubly sure" as we love to say".'
'In China, one tuition agency had a unique tagline: "You may not be a genius, but you can be a father to a genius!" Now which father would not want this? In Singapore, we have the opposite advertising.'
'Tertiary students have also volunteered their time to help weaker students.' [yeah, for $30-50 an hour LOL]
Hadriel
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Haseo - 2012-09-17
I like how the boy's hair practically looked the same before and after the extra cut.
KhainiWest Wrote:Okay this justifies that this system is retarded.
It's possible to be caught for having hair shorter than that. As long as it may at any point in time touch any part of the ears, it's considered an offending haircut.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Flonne - 2012-09-18
Haseo Wrote:As long as it may at any point in time touch any part of the ears, it's considered an offending haircut.
Uh, what? For it to not be touching the ears at all, it would have to be some sort of extreme bowlcut. Is that really what they consider normal?
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Haseo - 2012-09-18
Flonne Wrote:Uh, what? For it to not be touching the ears at all, it would have to be some sort of extreme bowlcut.
No, they shave off the hair around the ears to make a sort of 'moat of skin' in between the place where most of the hair is and the place where the ear is.
If you look at the image of the boy after the cut, you'll see a section of badly shaved skin between his hair and his upper ear.
I've circled it in red for you in case you're not sure what to look for:
![[Image: riyp88.png]](http://i50.tinypic.com/riyp88.png)
He actually looks like he got off relatively well, I've seen teachers shave off the hair behind the ears as well in a wide radius so that the 'moat' extends very visibly behind the ears onto the scalp portion. It can make the students look like they have weird alien crop circles growing out of their heads.
Basically, when teachers say 'not touching the eyebrows, ears or collar' they mean it with a vengeance. It's a very strict policy. In most situations 'near but not touching' is not allowed.
Flonne Wrote:Is that really what they consider normal?
Nobody cares what's normal so long as it doesn't touch the eyebrows, ears or collar. Not like you are allowed much of a say in the matter, lol. If you don't follow the rule you get punished. You follow the rule is all. Can't be helped if you end up looking like crap.
Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report - Loose - 2012-09-18
It's been almost a month and there's still argument about hair.
Hair's probably grown back to have it $60 stylized the way it was before the rambunctious teacher went haywire on the poor kid.