ShiKage Wrote:You kind of missed the point there...

A shot gun is a single burst fire, where as a machine gun is a continuous stream of bullets. If you miss with your shotgun, you'd be a bit more ticked off than if you missed with a couple of bullets with your machine gun, because at least you hit with some, unlike your shotgun where you completely missed.

Sorien Wrote:I have missed using single-hit skills up to 5 times in a row on monsters that are only 2 levels above me

Alloy Wrote:They have a point. And this is what goes on.

Imagine you miss the first 2 hits you land, then land the rest, on a monster that takes 1.5 hits to defeat.

On a 4 hit move, You'd miss 2/4, deal half your normal damage, then kill him on your next move.

On a 1 hit move, you'd miss your first two attacks, then kill him in the next two successful ones.

First case, 2 hits. Second case, 4 attacks.

However you see it, multiple hits beats or equals single hits ANYWHERE. So yes, just tell me a single situation where single hits is better over multiple hits. Just one.

Alloy Wrote:Wanna go the probability way? Alright, multiple hits, you end up doing first some of the damage, then some, etc, or none, if unlucky. Single hit, you sometimes miss, dealing 0 damage, wasting a whole attack, happening way more frecuently than if you had a chance to deal some.

Alloy Wrote:And even at bosses, if those attacks somehow give a second effect like healing, darkness, etc, you need as many hits as possible to recover/have more chances.

Sorien Wrote:Ok, I'm not going to bother quoting all of the comments that I want to reply to as there are just too many of them at this point. Instead I'll just give a generalized post about why I agree with Sarah in this situation.

While it is indeed true that over time, the damage difference between multi-hit and single-hit skills will even out, it is also true that the % miss rate doesn't always work out exactly as a calculator would lead people to believe.

If, for example, I were to go on my Paladin and fight a monster I could kill in one hit using ACB, but I had a 50% miss rate for some odd reason, then theoretically I would be able to kill that monster in 2 hits if I miss on my first attack; however, that 50% miss rate is also present in the second attack, and then the third as well. I have missed using single-hit skills up to 5 times in a row on monsters that are only 2 levels above me, and have thus wasted a large amount of time, mp, and hp trying to kill a monster that could have been dead much earlier. If I had been using Blast at the time, which hits multiple times, then there's a good chance I could have killed that monster sooner (not to mention Blast's instant kill rate, but I'm ignoring that in this particular case).

Yes, when a monster has massive hp, multi-hit and single-hit even out after a while, but that % miss rate can be a pain in the ass sometimes and force single-hit skills to be utterly worthless at times. That is not to say that I think single-hit skills are worthless, but I do think that the current accuracy formula makes single-hit attacks far more annoying to use when a monster is above the player's level.


This will be the first and last time I will comment on this argument about multi-hit vs single-hit. Frankly I think both sides need to lay off, especially since each party is beginning to sink to petty insults and neither party has shown a desire to let up any time soon.

Jerry-Boyle Wrote:You missed what he said, a shotgun is a scatter shot. It's bullet breaks up into hundreds of little ones. Shotguns are only powerful up close due to all the little pieces going into you. Shot guns are crap at long range due to the scattered-ness of the spray. It's much like a machine gun at long distances and less powerful.
Notice it sounds like they are the same?

yo72 Wrote:Lucks a peach aint it, and I just realized why are we talking about misses, its not like its too hard to get to 200 so you never miss anything again.

dante9898 Wrote:Ok multihit vs Singlehit discussion got boring already. Especially since you are only taking Miss rate in cosideration :/.

yo72 Wrote:I can make it interesting again...., this isnt pre-bb def and crits are %s. Anything supporting them is luck

hadriel Wrote:For the case of non-100% accuracy, even in the long-run argument, at the limit of monster death (i.e. you're killing a boss, both types of attacks do the same amount of damage over a long period of time until you're nearly going to kill it), multi-hit still wins.

Let's consider the case where the monster has so little HP just 1 hit from either a single-shot attack or 1 of the multi-shot attack will kill it. Let's say you're accuracy is 50%, for the sake of convenience. For every (full) shot you miss, you need another shot. So what I'm going to do here is to find how many extra shots I need just to kill that monster.

If miss, then score 1. If hit, then score 0.

Multi-hit (4-hit, since the people here have been talking about CL):

Probability that I miss on all 4 trials in a hit = 0.5^4 = 0.0625
Expected score = 0.0625*1 = 0.0625


Single-hit

Probability that I miss = 0.5
Expected score = 0.5*1 = 0.5


What this means is that at the limit of monster HP, a multi-hit attack will have a lower chance of not killing the monster (obviously), which means that the expected number of attacks needed to kill the monster gets very very low. I can pull off the same calculation for the subsequent misses, and multi-hit attack will still win. For every 100 monsters I kill, only 6.25 needs an extra shot from the multi-hit skill, and 50 needs an extra shot from the single-hit.

The point about this argument is - time is valuable. Excess damage is wasted.

If you feel that KB is important... sorry it's now a multi-hit skill. Given the current potential system, hitting the KB mark isn't very hard... If KB is what you want, take heart that at least CL stuns now. If you're an F/P... err... nothing to say. I believe both sides know the pros and cons of both types, so stop trying to squash each other.

Again, chill. Can't we be civilised people here?

Hadriel

yo72 Wrote:If your overkilling something by at least 4x dmg, the arguement shouldn't be about 1hit vrs multi, it should be you need more content

yo72 Wrote:If your overkilling something by at least 4x dmg, the arguement shouldn't be about 1hit vrs multi, it should be you need more content

hadriel Wrote:? Sorry don't understand. Please explain yourself for the bolded parts. I hope you are indeed reading my argument properly.

Hadriel

Shadeh Wrote:OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD,EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT MULTI HIT VS SINGLE JUST SHUUUUUSH

SHUUUUUSH SHHUUUUSH SHUSH SHUSH SHUT YOUR YAP.

It does NOT matter. Now back to discussing the new changes