Silvarien Wrote:I am from Russia

Silvarien Wrote:we DID come to save your asses in the end of WWI

Quote:we DID send millions of people to assist with the Western Front and countless billions in supplies

Quote:we DID do a disproportionate amount of work in the Cold War

Silvarien Wrote:I am from Russia and I studied modern European history for over five years, with many subsequent years of interest once out of college. You can say "you are wrong" all you want, the problem with proving it is that we DID come to save your asses in the end of WWI, we DID send millions of people to assist with the Western Front and countless billions in supplies, in World War II, and we DID do a disproportionate amount of work in the Cold War. And you DID start spewing hate at us the moment we were no longer needed.

There is no amount of bullshit that can vaporize America helping you guys in the 20th century. It's simply not possible, unless the teachers in your school are outright propagandists.

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ShinkuDragon Wrote:who is we? i'm confused.

Silvarien Wrote:I am a political refugee from the Soviet Union who is now a citizen of America and studied history since an early age.

Malthe Wrote:If i wanted to spend my time correcting everything wrong everyone posted on the internet i'd have very little spare time.
I mean, you seem to imply how you did X and did Y and did Z as simple altruistic acts done simply out of goodwill. Which is pineappleing hilarious m8.
You also keep implying various things as though they are fact when they're fairly clearly your own opinions. Ontop of that you seem to think europe is some collective mind that does everything together, apparently the events in one european country is something the entirety of europe has a hand in? Somehow? I mean that's just sheer idiocy i wouldn't expect from someone that supposedly spent 5 years studying it.

However, ultimately i do have one question to ask considering how booty bothered this whole thing seems to make you:

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ShinkuDragon Wrote:then there was no point in "i'm russian" was there? i kept reading that thing thinking "yea the russians didn't do any of that.

Silvarien Wrote:Yours is the sheer idiocy. You're talking about idiocy as an abstraction, I don't see any historic facts in that abstraction.

World War II ended with an essential partition of Europe that was embodied in the Berlin Wall. Russia sped in from the East, America and Britain sped from the West. This ended at Berlin, with the Eastern side consigned to communism and the Western side being free. The Western side was kept strong by America and the other Europeans -- because America helped in the race to Berlin during the end of WWII in Europe. What in this is not historic fact known by literally anybody with a brain?

Explain to me, genius, how the Berlin Wall and its broader partition of Europe was kept where it was, without American involvement. How would Britain have done Normandy without America involved. Come on, explain it to me. Not in your idiotic abstractions, I want concrete historic fact. Explain to me the landings at Normandy, and subsequent neutralization of Soviet control in Western Europe without that. Next, explain the 30,000,000 people Stalin exterminated via starvation in the Ukraine, which was the world's breadbasket, and how his benevolence wouldn't have extended this to Europe, without that American involvement, with possibly your mommy not getting boned by your daddy due to their ancestors having been exterminated to solidify the grip of Soviet control which would have happened without America being there throughout the Cold War to prevent it.

Silvarien Wrote:Gary Kasparov, the Russian chess grandmaster said yesterday that Bernie Sanders is what he's been hearing about all his life. He grew up in the USSR and was run out of the country when Putin's thugs beat the pomegranate out of him in an opposition rally. Being Russian myself, I totally agree.

Countries like yours have a ridiculously powerful and broad government, and ridiculously high taxes. You're also forgetting to say that the reason socialism is even remotely feasible in countries like yours is a robust middle class, which has been eroded to near-nothing in the United States and which is a prerequisite for socialism working at all. America not only has a ton of poor, it has the politics of the gutter by which the poor are saluted for sitting on welfare while people who earn a living for hard work are labeled as "privileged" and thereby "oppressors" because they happen to have a good job and have saved up money from working at it. That is not only communist politics, that is WHAT COMMUNISTS USED IN THE 1930S TO ROB MY OWN FAMILY AND SEND THEM TO THE GULAG. My great-granddad died in prison, his wife died in the gulag, and my grandma and her sister were on their own at the ages of 5 and 6 respectively. The "crime" for which they were sentenced was being small business owners. That is what Bernie Sanders really is.

Americans don't want the government deciding everything, Americans don't want ludicrous taxes, and Americans want to keep their earnings in their own wallets. You got Obama parading around Warren Buffett, who is moaning like a whore that he shouldn't pay a lower tax rate than his secretary. Then, the Republicans notice that OBAMA is paying a lower tax rate than HIS secretary, and obviously Obama immediately refuses to donate the difference to charity. Then, Buffett has Burger King buy out Tim Hortons -- so he can dodge taxes easier.

Socialists ARE very very very VERY generous -- with other people's money. You guys don't like your own earnings tanked, but when it's other people being robbed, you're totally fine with it

Keep your Finnish politics in Finland, and don't pretend we don't know. We're not as stupid as you think.

Malthe Wrote:Your posts are actually hilarious, i write 1 thing and you reply to something that was never written and ask for answers to statements that were never made. Where in my post did i talk about normandy? Hmmm, i don't think i ever did!
I called it idiocy to imply that europe is a collective hive-mind and that the actions of 1 european country reflects on another in any way. And how is that anything but idiocy? Only a true idiot think something like that. It'd be like thinking that Canada and the US are the same simply because they both fall under the geographic definition of north America.
Funniest part of your posts though is how you seemingly think that the US is an altruistic nation that helps people out of the sheer goodness in their hearts.

You're a funny guy. Not worth arguing with, but funny.

Silvarien Wrote:Therein, you've conceded the argument becausea you're essentially admitting you don't have the knowledge to counter it.

Quote:If i wanted to spend my time correcting everything wrong everyone posted on the internet i'd have very little spare time.

Silvarien Wrote:You said I used my opinions instead of fact. I have not. I posted historical knowledge, both in the original post and in reply to your post. I could lay out World War II point by point, but I don't think there's any need. All you're capable of doing is "hur dur your stoopid." It's like kicking a puppy, that growls at you a little.

Silvarien Wrote:Instead of trying to counter what I said, (I can't see even somebody with a PhD in history trying to counter THIS) you're trying to attack my character, ad hominem, instead of addressing the argument itself.

Silvarien Wrote:During a World War, Europe WAS a hive mind because all of Europe, explicitly or implicitly, was trying to shake off Hitler's yoke. What the pineapple do you think "World War" to mean, other than that? He was going to kill everybody, and that gave everybody incentive to fight him. They were not a single government, but they all wanted Hitler gone. Jesus Christ, how ignorant ARE you?

Silvarien Wrote:I am not a funny guy, I am a serious guy.

Silvarien Wrote:And no, you CAN'T argue with me, because you don't know basic history of your own continent that a smart person would know by the time they graduated high school or its European equivalent.

Satellite Wrote:We are a small country so you might not know much about the history of Finland, but we're very familiar with the horrors of communism. My grandfather had to leave his home at the age of 8 when Soviets invaded and ravaged his home town. His father was shot dead by soviet troops. His mother was young and couldn't afford to feed my grandpa so he was given to foster family. Back then Finland was VERY poor and there was no middle class to speak of, in fact this "robust middle class" you talk about is relatively recent development in this country.

However, it's not just communists Finns are familiar with. My great-grandma was a little girl in 1918 when there was a civil war in Finland. One day she noticed that her parents did not return from work and had to survive on her own for 2 days. Both her parents had been arrested by "white guards" (wealthy ruling class with support from Germans) and taken to a prison camp simply because they were working class and spoke Finnish. My other great-grandfather was nearly executed for the same reason at the age of 17. He survived but many were not as lucky.

Heck, the annexation of Finland (which thankfully did not succeed completely) and much of eastern Europe was something that the NAZIS AND SOVIETS planned TOGETHER. We ended up having to fight both the communists and the nazis. In the end our stolen land was ceded to Soviet Union in a "peace treaty" orchestrated by the winners: communists AND their capitalist allies Brits, Americans and French.

There's extremists on the right and left, older generations in Finland have experienced both. If you're playing the communist card, you should show some evidence that Sanders is supporting communist ideas.

I'm actually more of a classic liberal (but I don't like labels, I just support what I feel seems right) and I think the taxation and public sector in Finland is way over the top. But I believe that people should have a right to health and education regardless of what kind of family they're born in. I believe in equal oppurtunity. This is what Bernie stands for, not gulags.

However, The BIGGEST reason US and the world for that matter need Bernie is because big corporations and billionaires should NOT be able to buy elections. I think that's a travesty of democracy and ultimately it has terrible consequences. Lets take take oil lobbyists for instance, they're trying to destroy the climate of this planet for their personal gains and making sure that US continues to support tyrannies like Saudi Arabia, no better than the communists that killed my and your relatives. Different ideology (Islamic Wahhabism), but extremist and undemocratic one either way.

Malthe Wrote:bullpomegranate

Marksman Bryan Wrote:Honestly curious - I've never understood the term "scientific bias." When a statement is an accurate representation of a fact, it's not an opinion or a bias - it's a truth. Like saying 1+1=2, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, that statement is true no matter what. Same with global warming. You can't "believe/not believe in global warming" because it's a scientific fact.

I've always stayed out of two topics: politics and religion, because people are so polarized there's almost nothing you can do to change someone's mind. So participating in this discussion is a new area for me.

Silvarien Wrote:Counter arguments, or shut up. If you can't counter the argument, you can't counter the argument, and you're trying to make grandstanding and personal attacks obfuscate the fact you don't have any historic knowledge to actually argue with.

VerrKol Wrote:"Nazism and communism are essentially the same thing."
I think my high school history teacher just rolled over in his grave. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had a certain amount of similarity, but that does not make the ideologies identical.

VerrKol Wrote:Silvarien; "Nazism and communism are essentially the same thing."
I think my high school history teacher just rolled over in his grave. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had a certain amount of similarity, but that does not make the ideologies identical. Many would argue that Soviet Russia wasn't really Communist at all.

Also, you're acting like a child. Keep the conversation civil.

KhainiWest Wrote:Goddamn dude, he was just pineappleing with you from the start, take the hint

Marksman Bryan Wrote:The main goal is to keep the human species alive. Logically, I don't understand why we (as a species) care about anything else. If I think about it emotianally and irrationally, it makes perfect sense. Nothing is going to change because of human nature, and it might end up being our destruction (although certainly not in our lifetime. Which is another reason why most people don't care).

Marksman Bryan Wrote:Honestly curious - I've never understood the term "scientific bias." When a statement is an accurate representation of a fact, it's not an opinion or a bias - it's a truth. Like saying 1+1=2, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, that statement is true no matter what. Same with global warming. You can't "believe/not believe in global warming" because it's a scientific fact.

Silvarien Wrote:Devil

Quantact Derimed

SaptaZapta Wrote:Silvarien, America never acted, on behalf of Europe or anyone else, out of the goodness of its heart.
America, like any other country, has always acted out of its own self interest.
And America's self-interest is the interest of big business that rules it. Do you think American industry shed any tears over the soldiers dying in Europe? Hell no, they were too busy manufacturing for the "war effort". Same as Nazi Germany, except the money went to private hands rather than the government.

I don't see how you consider the Cold War to be America saving anyone's butt. It was about two sides trying to rule the world and threatening to destroy each other with nuclear weapons. Everyone in the middle, be it Europe or Southeast Asia, were pawns in this war, not its cause.

"Keeping the world safe for Democracy" actually means "Keeping the world safe for Coca Cola." If America kept to itself and let the rest of the world go under Soviet rule, who would buy America's products?

Let's look to more modern times. The USA sending troops to die in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... Who begged America to do this? Who were they saving? Big egos and big business.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. My own country, Israel, probably owes its continued existence to being in America's (and America's business') self interest. But you should not go spouting "we saved Europe's sorry ass at great cost to ourselves out of the goodness of our hearts," because that simply was never so. Just as the French didn't help the American Revolutionaries out of the goodness of their hearts.


Communism is socialism gone bad in the hands of tyrants. We see all over the world - yes, Europe, and Canada, for example - that socialism can work without tyranny. You can disagree with the premise of high taxation for big government spending on giving everyone certain minimal quality of life, but trying to fearmonger that socialism necessarily means gulags is just a wee bit disingenuous.

MetaSeraphim Wrote:I don't think logic or emotion has any part in it, the last part of your post most likely has the most to do with it.

Most people just want to watch the world burn.



Because humans are aren't series of 0s and 1s so when you talk about things in a "scientific way" with absolutes and such it ironically creates an uncanny valley effect and drives people away.



Now those are some names I haven't heard in a very long time.

Silvarien Wrote:Alright, you're Israeli. I am an American Jew. Everywhere I go, I see Hamas pawns calling Israel an "apartheid state," seeking to destroy your economy by hypocrite "divestment" campaigns they don't seek onto murderous tyrannies like Iran, justify the wanton murder of Israeli civilians, and people like me are trying to point out that Europe and other parts of the world essentially don't care when Israelis are killed but only moan about Palestinians being killed -- including, in recent times, that horrific string of killings which Western media ignored while Jews were being killed and only picked up once a terrorist got killed, and they covered only the terrorist's death. BBC hates you guys any way they can, to the point of equating the terrorists and their targets.

The Americans who are behind you are the other Jews, like myself (for religious and kinship reasons,) and the American Republicans, who are behind you for religious reasons. There ARE pragmatic reasons -- reasons of American self-interest -- to help Israel, but you're truly deluding yourself if the American liberals, who are sucking Hamas' plantain, care about that.

You think we are helping you 'cause of Coca Cola? You think I am?

National self-interest IS the primary motivating factor for nations on the international stage, but what you're forgetting is that nations have to justify their actions internally, and "we helped them for Coca Cola" is a bit cynical for most people. George W Bush helped you because he saw you as a military base and our only ally in the region. The actual American people -- those of them who are behind you -- are generally not motivated by that.

Some Americans are arrogant and boorish as hell. Others genuinely want to do good in the world, and they believe that when they're doing stuff like the Cold War, they're doing it for other people. Equating a nation with its politicians is pretty retarded, as the Israelis can probably attest to. Didn't Ehud Olmert just get put in prison for corruption? Does that mean you are a crook too?

Silvarien Wrote:It's nice to be back at SouthPerry, with its mix of guys like you and guys like Malthe. I remember Devil tried to convince me I don't own the copyright on my manuscripts, but rather on the bookshelf they're on, that's about the same as Malthe here.

I was one of the founding members, under the nickname of Quantact, that I changed to Derimed just before I left. That Poast emote was my evil creation. Aside from you and Eos, I am not sure anybody'll remember me. But, despite the years having passed, it's nice to see good ole Southperry. It seems to have survived Maple Story itself.

KhainiWest Wrote:Man no one is flaunting their southperry sh`it, just he wasn't serious about it from the start. I don't agree with your viewpoints either, they seem really, really radicalized

EDIT: That is interesting, a Russian American Jew

RAJ.

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Malthe;