Bribery Wrote:Bosses are much more complex now. Having high damage isn't the end all-be all of bossing anymore. imo the 3 Adventurer warriors are balanced now, though I think the Elemental Void nerf was too severe. I think it should be around 50% or so like the Cygnus Knights have.

Heroes are basically extinct in Bera because everyone has either converted to Dark Knights or Paladins. Heroes should outdamage Dark Knights and Paladins because they bring nothing else to the table. I don't think being stronger at useless "easy" bosses like Zakum and Horntail is really an advantage. It doesn't matter what DPS charts say, Dark Knights and Paladins are better than Heroes in every single way at any boss that actually matters.

Paladins are by far the most useful class in the game. They have unmatched survivability, Threaten, Smite, and Resurrection. Their ability to survive many OHKO attacks is a significant advantage because it allows them to keep attacking while other classes die and waste time rebuffing. My Chaos Vellum group brings a Paladin just for Threaten, regardless of how strong they are. Some of my buddies bring an unfunded Paladin for Smite at Hard Magnus. Very few classes can get into these end-game bosses without spending a pomegranateload on NX. Paladins also have the highest hits/second out of the 3 Adventurer warriors, meaning they have the highest end-game damage potential.

Dark Knights have auto-revive, invincibility, DR ignore, and passive heal. These are all incredibly useful at end-game bosses that have death counters and/or potion cooldown. Having these advantages over Heroes AND being able to out DPS them is unfair. Dark Knights also benefit the most from funding because of the amount of multipliers they have. It takes significantly fewer funds for a Dark Knight to solo end-game bosses compared to Heroes.

Aggravate Wrote:30% Total Damage is nice considering Extreme Archery: Bow gave only a lackluster 20 Attack boost before.

I have no idea why they switched Arrow Blaster and Flaming Hurricane around. What was the point of that? The Turret already deals 153% damage, and Flaming Hurricane already deals 280% damage in gMS. This update just makes the use of Double Blaster viable in 3rd job, but nerfs the damage of Arrow Blaster from 220% to 181%.

Aggravate Wrote:30% Total Damage is nice considering Extreme Archery: Bow gave only a lackluster 20 Attack boost before.

I have no idea why they switched Arrow Blaster and Flaming Hurricane around. What was the point of that? The Turret already deals 153% damage, and Flaming Hurricane already deals 280% damage in gMS. This update just makes the use of Double Blaster viable in 3rd job, but nerfs the damage of Arrow Blaster from 220% to 181%.

Bribery Wrote:Bosses are much more complex now. Having high damage isn't the end all-be all of bossing anymore. imo the 3 Adventurer warriors are balanced now, though I think the Elemental Void nerf was too severe. I think it should be around 50% or so like the Cygnus Knights have.

Heroes are basically extinct in Bera because everyone has either converted to Dark Knights or Paladins. Heroes should outdamage Dark Knights and Paladins because they bring nothing else to the table. I don't think being stronger at useless "easy" bosses like Zakum and Horntail is really an advantage. It doesn't matter what DPS charts say, Dark Knights and Paladins are better than Heroes in every single way at any boss that actually matters.

Paladins are by far the most useful class in the game. They have unmatched survivability, Threaten, Smite, and Resurrection. Their ability to survive many OHKO attacks is a significant advantage because it allows them to keep attacking while other classes die and waste time rebuffing. My Chaos Vellum group brings a Paladin just for Threaten, regardless of how strong they are. Some of my buddies bring an unfunded Paladin for Smite at Hard Magnus. Very few classes can get into these end-game bosses without spending a pomegranateload on NX. Paladins also have the highest hits/second out of the 3 Adventurer warriors, meaning they have the highest end-game damage potential.

Dark Knights have auto-revive, invincibility, DR ignore, and passive heal. These are all incredibly useful at end-game bosses that have death counters and/or potion cooldown. Having these advantages over Heroes AND being able to out DPS them is unfair. Dark Knights also benefit the most from funding because of the amount of multipliers they have. It takes significantly fewer funds for a Dark Knight to solo end-game bosses compared to Heroes.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:You did ask me to refer to JoeTang's DPM(or is his DPS?) chart and now you are giving me some flaws of all the DPM chart.

I am aware that if you take an example of wind breaker & marksman, marksman can use 2~3 lines of %pdr at its max and use the rest of the lines on %bossdmg/%att whereas windbreaker needs 4~5 lines of pdr% to make sure you don't lose dmg in some endgame bosses, which means that windbreaker gets a smaller number of %boss/%att compared to marksman, so thanks for reminding me how some DPM charts are not so reliable as those of JT.



If you compare just those three warrior classes you might be able to make a cunningly manipulated point like that but if you look at a bigger picture, all three warriors are insanely overpowered compared to other classes and I don't know what on earth you are seriously on about.

As you mention work'n'reward concept, if you spend an okay period of time, you can obtain 50% buff duration and/or good enough equipment to attempt those endgame boss contents in which void elemental becomes a huge advantage. With this idea, paladins and dark knights can be seen damn overpowered.

Not to mention, both classes' utility and survivability overwhelms those of other classes (not talking about just heroes but also the 30 or a bit more other classes existing in maplestory) so I can't really see how you are complaining.

What kind of messed up thing is this? got bind, you don't die by 1 hit ko skills, can revive others, got healing skill, got nice mobbing skill, got nice status resist, ANDDDD got nice damage.

/find balance????

Just admit the fact that paladins and dark knights were (well more like "still are overpowered" as this is just KMS tespia) insanely overpowered...

KillerZero Wrote:First you say you understand why dpm charts can be flawed, and then go on to compare archer to archer.

Then you go on to say that comparing wariors to wariors is a bad thing and you should see the overall picture.

Then go on to say that a warriors ability to survive and tank is not fair compared to other jobs outside of warriors.

A warrior job is to tank and attack and be an offensive up in front class.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:The only conclusion I can draw from your argument is, power-creeping.

Quote:You keep telling me how friggin awesome JT's chart is, thank you so much I don't know how I can show my gratitude.

Quote:You did ask me to refer to JoeTang's DPM(or is his DPS?) chart and now you are giving me some flaws of all the DPM chart.

Quote:Of course DPM chart is not a very reliable source to refer to as it is not a true reflection of the real bossing situation. The chart lacks practicality by a lot and the figures (or rather %s) don't mean a lot.

I am aware that if you take an example of wind breaker & marksman, marksman can use 2~3 lines of %pdr at its max and use the rest of the lines on %bossdmg/%att whereas windbreaker needs 4~5 lines of pdr% to make sure you don't lose dmg in some endgame bosses, which means that windbreaker gets a smaller number of %boss/%att compared to marksman, so thanks for reminding me how some DPM charts are not so reliable as those of JT.

Quote:I love how make a hasty generalisation and assume that this person lacks knowledge of DPM chart solely because he posted this chart from insoya and the table is worse than that of JT. Quite a logical fallacy aye?

Quote:If you compare just those three warrior classes you might be able to make a cunningly manipulated point like that but if you look at a bigger picture, all three warriors are insanely overpowered compared to other classes and I don't know what on earth you are seriously on about.

Quote:As you mention work'n'reward concept, if you spend an okay period of time, you can obtain 50% buff duration and/or good enough equipment to attempt those endgame boss contents in which void elemental becomes a huge advantage. With this idea, paladins and dark knights can be seen damn overpowered.

Quote:Not to mention, both classes' utility and survivability overwhelms those of other classes (not talking about just heroes but also the 30 or a bit more other classes existing in maplestory) so I can't really see how you are complaining.

Quote:What kind of messed up thing is this? got bind, you don't die by 1 hit ko skills, can revive others, got healing skill, got nice mobbing skill, got nice status resist, ANDDDD got nice damage.

Quote:Just admit the fact that paladins and dark knights were (well more like "still are overpowered" as this is just KMS tespia) insanely overpowered...

Reminiscent Wrote:From A Better Maple
Q: Are we ever going to get the 5th job advancement?
A: Currently there are no plans for the 5th Job Advancement but there will be updates aimed at high level characters, including level cap increases. Expect great things for high leveled characters in the near future.

stop lying nexon

ShinkuDragon Wrote:time to go full khainiwest here


you're welcome


if you're going to use flawed information at least use the better source



good, then you should be able to see why the next point is important


i'm not saying he lacks knowledge, i'm saying his chart is useless because it shows a single point, it doesn't show a tendency, if a class starts getting stronger and stronger as you add potential percentages, that means that it takes more use of it's base stats which mean that it probably is better or will at some point, surpass the other, dark knights and paladins are two such classes. at a starting point they're worse than heroes, period, however they benefit more from equips and potentials until they reach the point where they surpass the heroes, in the case of paladin it's not even those, the only way they surpass heroes is by using void elemental.

his chart doesn't show any of that



all three warriors you say, yet where is the hero nerf then?



so they should reward the extra work with... nothing? is that what you say? because if you look around getting 50% buff duration is pretty darn difficult, the circulating thread and the many threads everywhere are good proof of that.



i'd like to know what utility dark knights provide, they have better survivability indeed thanks to drain but that's it, hyper body is, as i mentioned, useless. you don't need it for easy bosses, and hard bosses deal %hp anyways. it also makes drain skills less effective



most of this only applies to pallies. DrK got the healing skills too, all three classes have nice mobbers (pally's better) all three classes have nice status resist (pallies better) and all classes have nice damage one way or another, heroes have nice damage that falls off with boss power creep, DrK have meh damage that becomes good damage as gungnir uptime is increased, and pallies have blergh damage which becomes good when fighting bosses vulnerable to void elemental



no, paladins indeed have it too good because they can do everything, but this nerf is beyond that and drops them as support again (at least this time they can actually support with the other skills) but dark knights then become absolutely useless besides "hurr durr i can die once every 6 minutes, bring a hero instead"

Lisak Wrote:Split Hurricane will have its impacts on the super funded for sure.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:Damn so are you saying because heroes are not as nerfed as paladins, the paladin nerf is not justified? O_O

Paladins/DrKs survivabilities are much better than that of Heroes anyway. Perhaps that is why heroes' nerf wasn't as significant?

I'm getting so tired of your narrow-minded pedanticism, I won't be replying further as I find this discussion really pointless.

Whatever we ramble on further, in my opinion, won't change the outcome of the patch that will be made in KMS later. I will just be looking forward to having a bigass smile on my face after seeing the patch note for the real KMS server, not Tespia, hopefully paladins get some severe nerf in terms of damage.

Quote:Perhaps that is why heroes' nerf wasn't as significant?

Quote:Perhaps that is why heroes' nerf wasn't as significant?

Quote:Perhaps that is why heroes' nerf wasn't as significant?

Quote:Perhaps that is why heroes' nerf wasn't as significant?

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:The bowman comparison I used was to show the impracticality of the DPM chart. I could have used one bowman class & one thief class to show the same idea.

As far as I remember from what I heard in 10th anniversary festival that happened in Coex last year, Hero was supposed to be the dmg-dealing upfront warrior and paladin was supposed to be the defensive supportive class.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:In my 'subjective' opinion, as you call opinions differing from yours "wonky", paladins do deserve that void elemental change nerf. Paladins don't deserve the cygnus treatment, in my opinion.

KillerZero Wrote:I believe paladins true advantage in bossing is the ability to survive almost everything. Not having to fear death goes along way in attacking when you can tank every dr in the game(well at least my paladin can) and almost all attacks for the most part. So when you dont have to stop attacking because you wont die, is where the real damage is dealt. if a paladin had to be afraid of dieing like every other class that solos cvellum or magnus, i can bet that they wouldnt be top tier as you claim. All the solos videos i saw, so many times a paladin should of died and they just kept attacking like nothing was happening.

If they truly thought paladins were too op it should be a small nerfing to elemental resistance down to 50% and some to its tanking ability. Its being called undeserved as by the chart you posted, they are barely 2 classes better than a bishop there.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:Paladins already have good enough survivability and utility for it to be tanky, supportive class. Heroes have a pretty crappy survivability and I didn't mind heroes being overpowered (I think Post RED heroes are overpowered as well). but paladins?

Hell no. They are literally like gods in bossing ( like how do you die as a paladin, you can just get pet auto hp and go on a coffee break during some boss runs ). With that much of a survivability, if you ask for some okay damage, I don't know, just I really don't know what I can say.

EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:With the 50% elemental ignore thingy like KoC, paladins will be dealing similar damage to other classes and will still be with the highest survivability. Unfairness I call.

maplefreak26 Wrote:That response was given by Anna who was apparently the Team Leader. When looking at other responses from her, when she says "we" it seems to imply that she's part of the GMS team in NxA offices unlike some other folks (Unagon in Design says "When we first released Angelic Buster in KMS" which implies he's part of the GMS or KMS team in NxK). She wasn't lying, there are no plans for the 5th job advancement currently in the GMS team as she can only speak for her team and not a different version's team.

Aggravate Wrote:I don't think I've even seen a BM in gMS hit 50m with only Hurricane, much less at Chaos Vellum.

Chicocl Wrote:As an Aran and Mihile user (Well, technically I have all warriors but Dawn warriors at lvl 200 and play all of them at the same time ), I see this whole Adventurer warrior fight as something extremely funny.

Aran and Mihile have nothing for Bossing parties, Aran's Combo Barrier doesn't work with %HP attacks and has the lowest DPS and tankiness of all warriors, Drain isn't just enough for it, this situation existed since Big bang and was never fixed (it probably got even worse)... So, you could say all that stuff about "we used to be the underdog, we deserve to be OP now", if that's the case, Aran has to be the Black Mage in terms of power because Aran wasn't only the worst of the legends but also the worst Warrior for a long time (and even the worst class post RED Adventurers patch, when we had worse DPS than Bishops).

I'm quite sure that Aran, mihile and DS users would like to have Heroes' DPS or any perks that Drk/Paladin had, specially Arans that have none.

Grey Wrote:The patch notes specifically say they didn't like that you could spam Gungnir if you had more than 50% Buff Duration, that's why they made it impossible. All the reasoning for all of these changes is actually right there in the notes.