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+--- Thread: [1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. (/showthread.php?tid=39704)
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Takebacker - 2011-03-25
Baklava Wrote:Yeah but Paladins need something that's Holy weak to be able to be almost on par with Dark Knights/Heroes.
Balanced.
Baklava Wrote:Saying that survivability balances damage in a game that plays like maple is stupid, and I'm sure you're aware of it.
No it isn't. Using "plays like maple" as an excuse is silly because you're not distinguishing between pot cooldown systems or normal ones. Surivability normally is only to save pots. In pot cooldown it's an entirely different (and necessary) role and i'm sure you're aware of it.
Baklava Wrote:Surviving is useless in party play because chances are you can just have a bishop tape down the heal key and have an Aran/Battle Mage cast their party defense buffs and any class pretty much doesn't have to worry. Paladin's defense is basically a solo gimmick that doesn't benefit anyone. What good is a Paladin if the rest of the party dies?
>Party dies
>Party play
>Implies training
When the hell would that ever happen?
Baklava Wrote:And they're pretty much the same as everyone else when it comes to magic tanking. Divine Shield doesn't block magic properly, Guardian only works with touch contact, shield mastery requires a shield equipped, so you sacrifice even more damage (and x2 of a paladin's base magic defense is...still crap) for a stat that still has a bad formula.
Magic is always weaker than physical to begin with and for the most part always survivable on a normal scale/avoidable, so there being little difference between classes in respect to magic tanking doesn't matter.
Divine shield does it's job. Guardian prevents all hits. Shield mastery requiring a shield, thus reducing damage, does not make sense. Did you forget shields can have potential? A well scrolled shield WILL beat a 2h sword. Paladins getting more bonuses from wearing it just makes it better.
Baklava Wrote:Until they get some skill that can makes everyone else take 50% less damage or something, there's really no way damage can balance with surviving. The game of maple with all its emphasis on damage is to kill something before it can even hit you.
As fiel said, threaten is god. It severely decreases PDR as well as damage dished out. I really don't know how you could want any party skill other than threaten AND YOU STILL GET COMBAT ORDERS.
Baklava Wrote:Also, Mechanics have an nearly infinite Divine Shield-like guard that deflects physical and magical attacks, good physical/magic defense boosts and RANGED damage that beats everyone's ass with a spiked club.
They also have 4x-5x the hitbox than everyone else and limited escape options. Ranged damage means nothing if the boss is impossible to KB with those skills, in which case it can walk up to your mech and touch your ridiculous hitbox.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - TagerBustah - 2011-03-25
JoeTang Wrote:Heroes got buffed quite a bit.
Brave Slash + 6x Coma, Panic on cooldown when you have 10 orbs 6 mobs:
8910%/s
Monster Magnet + Panic (Manual 8~10 orb) 6 mobs:
~7940%/s
Monster Magnet + 9x Coma + Panic on cooldown when you have 10 orbs 6 mobs:
8710%/s
Brave Slash + Panic Macro 3 mobs:
~4860%/s
Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 3 mobs:
~5240%/s
Enrage Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 1v1:
3259%/s
Brave Slash + Panic on cooldown 1v1:
2037%/s
Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 6 mobs:
8306%/s
Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 3 mobs:
4208%/s
Holy Lightning Blast:
1623%/s
Berserk Dark Impale 6 mobs:
7543%/s -> 7828%/s
Berserk Dark Impale 3 mobs:
3829%/s -> 3971%/s
Berserk Sacrifice:
1472%/s
Paladin % DPS
Blast with regular crit rate at Faster(3)
Holy weak+light weak 3,733%/s
Fire weak+light weak 3,558%/s
Ice weak+light weak 3,308%/s
Holy weak+light 3,629%/s
Fire weak+light 3,454%/s
Ice weak+light 3,204%/s
Neutral holy+light 2,488%/s
Neutral fire+light 2,372%/s
Blast with 82% crit rate at Faster(3) (crit ring+ decent SE+ guild SE)
Holy weak+light weak 4,252%/s
Fire weak+light weak 4,053%/s
Ice weak+light weak 3,769%/s
Holy weak+light 4,134%/s
Fire weak+light 3,935%/s
Ice weak+light 3,650%/s
Neutral holy+light 2,835%/s
Neutral fire+light 2,702%/s
ACB without crit at Normal(6) 3mobs 6mobs 7mobs
Holy weak+light weak 6,146%/s 12,292%/s 14,340%/s
Fire weak+light weak 5,858%/s 11,716%/s 13,669%/s
Ice weak+light weak 5,447%/s 10,894%/s 12,710%/s
Holy weak+light 5,974%/s 11,949%/s 13,941%/s
Fire weak+light 5,687%/s 11,374%/s 13,269%/s
Ice weak+light 5,275%/s 10,551%/s 12,310%/s
Feel free to correct any mistake.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Takebacker - 2011-03-25
Doesn't double weakness not stack?
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Lugin - 2011-03-25
TagerBustah Wrote:Paladin % DPS
Blast with crit
Holy weak+light weak 3,652%/s
Fire weak+light weak 3,481%/s
Ice weak+light weak 3,236%/s
Lightning doesn't count toward advantage when dual charged.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - DarkQThunder - 2011-03-25
Takebacker Wrote:They also have 4x-5x the hitbox than everyone else and limited escape options. Ranged damage means nothing if the boss is impossible to KB with those skills, in which case it can walk up to your mech and touch your ridiculous hitbox.Mechs have drill rush, but I agree with you and Fiel on threaten. As an example, CZak has a 40% PDR, so people do 60% damage; threaten makes that 28% PDR, and people do 72% damage, which means the entire squad does 20% more damage. I'm also quite sure threaten saved my shad a couple times when CZak casts zombify, seduce, and dispell at the 2nd and 3rd bodies.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Sorien - 2011-03-25
Takebacker Wrote:Doesn't double weakness not stack?
Lugin Wrote:Lightning doesn't count toward advantage when dual charged.
Double weakness does stack, but it's a bit different than you might think.
The formula is something like: [(primary ele % * primary ele bonus) + (12.5% * lightning bonus)]
Basically, Lightning will always provide additional damage when stacked, but depending on the lightning bonus it will add 6.25%, 12.5%, or 18.75% damage.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Takebacker - 2011-03-25
DarkQThunder Wrote:Mechs have drill rush, but I agree with you and Fiel on threaten. As an example, CZak has a 40% PDR, so people do 60% damage; threaten makes that 28% PDR, and people do 72% damage, which means the entire squad does 20% more damage. I'm also quite sure threaten saved my shad a couple times when CZak casts zombify, seduce, and dispell at the 2nd and 3rd bodies.
Drill rush can't be used on tank though, which is always on at a boss. The animation makes it impossible to switch out of last minute to save yourself, and rush has such long range that you could rush the boss into a corner and wind up right on top of it, suffering from touch damage anyway.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - TagerBustah - 2011-03-25
Did anyone notice they increased Brave slash to hit 4 enemies instead of 3?
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Stereo - 2011-03-25
Takebacker Wrote:Balanced.
No it isn't. Using "plays like maple" as an excuse is silly because you're not distinguishing between pot cooldown systems or normal ones. Surivability normally is only to save pots. In pot cooldown it's an entirely different (and necessary) role and i'm sure you're aware of it.
Still way overkill there... when my Paladin fights Ani, with a 2h weapon, I'm repotting for the MP. I even have +mp regen earrings (18mp/4s. Wonder if I can find better ones, or if this effect even stacks). If I use a 1h weapon I imagine I wouldn't take damage, I'd just burn through my MP with Blast.
The 30s (now 15s) cooldown on heal is like playing with pot cooldown, all the time. And I haven't run into issues there yet either. Other than that Heal for Clerics is way better
Kinda like how Mechs, at level 10, get a better version of Rush, Stance, and DS.Holy + Lightning weak:
(Holy * holyweak + Lightning * lightningweak) * Blast % * blast hits * (normal damage + %crit * (min crit + max crit)/2) * (1000ms/atkms)
(1.37 * 1.5 + .125 * 1.5) * 3.0 * 3 * (1 + .57 * (.41 + .5)/2) * (1000/630)
= 4034%/s at Fastest(2), 3683%/s at Faster(3).
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Dark Link - 2011-03-25
Sorien Wrote:Double weakness does stack, but it's a bit different than you might think.
The formula is something like: [(primary ele % * primary ele bonus) + (12.5% * lightning bonus)]
Basically, Lightning will always provide additional damage when stacked, but depending on the lightning bonus it will add 6.25%, 12.5%, or 18.75% damage.
Since when has this been in the game? Last I read, when you dual charged, Lit only gave a flat damage boost and its elemental boost was removed for in favor of the primary element. If Lit had its elemental bonus applied during dual charge, then our best combo would be Holy+Lit at OB4, not Ice+Lit.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Worthyness - 2011-03-25
KMS: make every single monster have ridiculously high HP to encourage party training, but then make every class do hundreds of thousands of damage to make said monsters look like small fry. What is the point of making monsters stronger if all they're going to do is "balance" the players out by giving them more overall damage via skills? Seems to defeat the original point.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Sorien - 2011-03-25
Dark Link Wrote:Since when has this been in the game? Last I read, when you dual charged, Lit only gave a flat damage boost and its elemental boost was removed for in favor of the primary element. If Lit had its elemental bonus applied during dual charge, then our best combo would be Holy+Lit at OB4, not Ice+Lit.
Well if you look at the formula, lightning's bonus to the damage isn't multiplicative, it's additive.
Against a dual weak enemy the formula would be [(1.XX * 1.5) + (0.125 * 1.5)]. Multiply that by 100 to get the % damage bonus.
Ice + Lightning at Oblivions would result in {100 * [(1.20 * 1.5) + (0.125 * 1.5)]} = 198.75%
Holy + Lightning at Oblivions would only be {100 * [(1.37 * 1.0) + (0.125 * 1.5)]} = 155.75%
Lightning alone at Oblivions would be [100 * (1.25 * 1.5)] = 187.5%
Worthyness Wrote:KMS: make every single monster have ridiculously high HP to encourage party training, but then make every class do hundreds of thousands of damage to make said monsters look like small fry. What is the point of making monsters stronger if all they're going to do is "balance" the players out by giving them more overall damage via skills? Seems to defeat the original point.
To be honest, I think they need to rework the monsters' and players' hp, mp and damage completely. They should just have an hp/mp formula based on the character's level and job, then have damage dealt by players be significantly lower as well as reducing the amount of HP that monsters have. Hell, they should make each monster be considered part of one of the different jobs and assign them stats that use the same formulas as the players so that fighting a monster would be like playing PvP against someone with unique skills.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Fiel - 2011-03-25
Quests have been added to the thread. Note that this is in early beta form.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Takebacker - 2011-03-25
Worthyness Wrote:KMS: make every single monster have ridiculously high HP to encourage party training, but then make every class do hundreds of thousands of damage to make said monsters look like small fry. What is the point of making monsters stronger if all they're going to do is "balance" the players out by giving them more overall damage via skills? Seems to defeat the original point.
Base damage through skills aren't enough to make the changed monsters puny. Changing skills and adding power only serves to increase base training speed. The equips of the player determines everything beyond that.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Jon - 2011-03-25
Fiel Wrote:Quests have been added to the thread. Note that this is in early beta form.
Lookin' good. Can't wait to see it in English.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - TagerBustah - 2011-03-25
Stereo Wrote:
Holy + Lightning weak:
(Holy * holyweak + Lightning * lightningweak) * Blast % * blast hits * (normal damage + %crit * (min crit + max crit)/2) * (1000ms/atkms)
(1.37 * 1.5 + .125 * 1.5) * 3.0 * 3 * (1 + .57 * (.41 + .5)/2) * (1000/630)
= 4034%/s at Fastest(2), 3683%/s at Faster(3).
you forgot to add combat orders for blast it should be 3.04*3
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Gregory - 2011-03-25
ShiKage Wrote:Dolphin Noon is... Florina?
Dolphin Noon is actually kerning swamp / kpq music
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - Dusk - 2011-03-25
@Takebacker I'll have to agree with Baklava here. There's only three things that really matter in Maple, damage, speed, and tankiness. Tankiness is useless in Maple beyond the survival threshold. It doesn't matter if you end a battle with 500 HP or 10,000 HP. The only way Paladin defense would actually be a balancing factor is if the threshold was set extremely high - which would just be annoying given the hugely varying levels of tankiness by class.
Paladins have no means of actually using their tankiness to help their party. Oh, so they have a buff they can throw on their party and a debuff to throw at enemies. Nothing critical. Nothing a Paladin needs to survive for. It used to be that when a DK died at HT, all the ranged in the party would go with them if they weren't resed. That's the kind of party ability you need to actually justify being weaker in exchange for better defenses.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - DarkQThunder - 2011-03-25
@Dusk For bosses with seduce, survival threshold for the first few people to enter the boss map is much higher than that of everybody else. Also, paladin's threaten helps quite a bit, say a boss did 20k damage, threaten would make that 14k, almost as low as the 12.5k HP needed to reach 20k hp with HB. In the case the ranged attacker has a czhelm, CHTP, and rex earrings, HB only gives 1.9x/1.3x = 1.46x boost because of how it adds with % hp equips, and the attacker would need 13.7k HP including these equips to reach 20k.
[1.2.376] More Warrior Rebalance. Remixed music. - aslemn - 2011-03-25
I don't get the logic on LHC map, although it looks good. Looks like a pretty weird castle, and... You walk inside the walls?! And if not, why the hell are lower dots than others?
Makes no sense to me :S