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+---- Thread: The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread (/showthread.php?tid=2655)
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Russt - 2008-09-02
Hardly. You want LUK to add 0.8 magic, remember? So they'd still have a respectable and usable amount of magic after ditching Heal, and in 1st job too for that matter.
0.8 for a secondary stat is pretty unreasonable if the primary stat adds 1. They're way too close to each other; it makes it so that they're almost interchangeable. You could raise INT and LUK evenly with each other and your damage would barely suffer.
For every other class, you'd need at least 3 points in secondary stat to equal 1 point in primary stat.
On a side note though, if they did make LUK add a substantial amount of magic, I'd be all for pure LUK builds. Frequent MISSes <3
And I can't help but notice your wording:
Afrobean Wrote:lukless weaker and luk a little strongerLUK is far from 'a little stronger' if LUKless isn't only 'a little' weaker.
...why bother even arguing about imaginary changes, anyway?
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Wolfman - 2008-09-02
Instead of changing the effect of luk on m.att couldn't they just raise the base amount of m.att on the LUK wands/staves in the game. I mean that is the reason LUK mages add luk to begin with; to equip the new fancy weapons/clothing. This method would also eliminate the chances of any Pure LUK mage builds popping up.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Afrobean - 2008-09-03
Russt Wrote:Hardly. You want LUK to add 0.8 magic, remember? So they'd still have a respectable and usable amount of magic after ditching Heal, and in 1st job too for that matter.1st job would have them being roughly 80% as strong as normal
2nd job, assuming the heal formula people live by is accurate, would have a slight advantage in damage
3rd job, damage is irrelevant and no matter what would be trumped by other party members
4th job they'd be noticeably weaker
Oh and they'd have practically no MP due to having so little int.
Quote:0.8 for a secondary stat is pretty unreasonable if the primary stat adds 1. They're way too close to each other; it makes it so that they're almost interchangeable. You could raise INT and LUK evenly with each other and your damage would barely suffer.Raising luk unduely would not only lower your chances of dealing better damage, but it wouldn't really give an effective advantage in any worthwhile way. It would be mildly useful for a CLERIC in 2ND JOB ONLY, but the cost of being weaker in general (and only a little stronger with Heal) and having less MP isn't worth it.
Quote:For every other class, you'd need at least 3 points in secondary stat to equal 1 point in primary stat.Magicians aren't every other class. One magic attack affects a Magician much less than one weapon attack affects other classes. This is why it is not reasonable to say "other classes need many secondary stat to get attack, so magicians should require many secondary stat to get THEIR attack". No. Also: it takes a lot more than 3 secondary stat to get one weapon attack... their PRIMARY stat doesn't even have as a strong a turnout as that (I think it's around 5~10 of the primary AP to get one weapon attack usually).
Quote:On a side note though, if they did make LUK add a substantial amount of magic, I'd be all for pure LUK builds. Frequent MISSes <3Luk actually gives either equal or greater magical accuracy than int. Being pure luk wouldn't make them have any more misses.
Quote:...why bother even arguing about imaginary changes, anyway?Oh, don't be like that. You take that mentality and all debate everywhere becomes meaningless.
-------------------------------
Wolfman Wrote:Instead of changing the effect of luk on m.att couldn't they just raise the base amount of m.att on the LUK wands/staves in the game.That wouldn't work. Existing weapons would still have lower stats, even if they change the data to have the weapons have more reasonable magic.
In short, all existing weapons are STILL obsoleted with this method, and the obsolescence of all existing weapons is one of the primary reasons the elemental weapons are a poor solution to the problem.
Quote:I mean that is the reason LUK mages add luk to begin with; to equip the new fancy weapons/clothing. This method would also eliminate the chances of any Pure LUK mage builds popping up.Like I said already, the INTENSELY minor advantage of being pure luk would be GROSSLY outweighed by the cost: weaker in general, way too little MP. And the only advantage would be to have Heal damage be a bit stronger (again, assuming the formula is entirely accurate), and that "advantage" would only carry CLERICS through 2ND JOB ONLY. It really is like HP warriors-- tough time through 1st job, 2nd job made a lot easier, but useless at high levels.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Wolfman - 2008-09-03
Afrobean Wrote:That wouldn't work. Existing weapons would still have lower stats, even if they change the data to have the weapons have more reasonable magic.
In short, all existing weapons are STILL obsoleted with this method, and the obsolescence of all existing weapons is one of the primary reasons the elemental weapons are a poor solution to the problem.
I was under the impression that they kept records of the base stat of a weapon. At one point the stats on weapons had become buggy because they were showing something like "%d+5". I assumed that the integer value which which was normally hidden was the base stat and Nexon screwed up trying to display it. If that was how it was designed they could add to the base m.att on the weapons by changing the m.att value on the parent object of all the respective staves/wands and the new base would be added to all existing staves/wands. Again this is assuming that this was how it was designed since I can't find any pictures of the buggy weapons to be sure if this was a possible method of implementation.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - LazyBui - 2008-09-03
Afrobean Wrote:No, they don't, at least not as far as subclass relations are concerned. Rather than say "Bishops have too much", you should be saying "Mages deserve more". The mentality shouldn't be "slow Bishops down", it should be "make Mages faster". Stop being vocal as an oppressive force and start being vocal as a constructive force.This struck me as funny.
"You shouldn't come close [to other classes in terms of damage]. That's not what Mages are for. If you did come close, that would be messed up... Mages would have too much on their plate and it would be unfair to the others. Now yes, I'll admit that other classes may already "have too much on their plate", but I'm more of a try-to-convince-them-to-come-down type guy rather than a jump-up-to-unfairness-ourselves type."
Remember this one, big guy? http://www.sleepywood.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7735682&postcount=60
The holy track has the easiest first job, the easiest and one of the fastest second jobs (albeit one of the most boring as well), they can do their third job while sleeping - literally - and can solo to 200 very quickly with low cost relative to every other class - no exceptions.
The holy track is desired for PQs in first job and second job. They are very desired for bossing in third job and fourth job.
They have essentially everything, but that's okay and definitely not reminiscent of unfair because you are one.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Naixin - 2008-09-03
Man, pineapple all of this arguing. This shits pointless.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Russt - 2008-09-03
Afrobean Wrote:1st job would have them being roughly 80% as strong as normalMP Increase. They'll still have plenty of MP. At level 100 you're looking at around 2000 MP less. Seems like a lot, but it's no big deal really. No one gets even close to being 1hko'd with MG on in any practical situation.
2nd job, assuming the heal formula people live by is accurate, would have a slight advantage in damage
3rd job, damage is irrelevant and no matter what would be trumped by other party members
4th job they'd be noticeably weaker
Oh and they'd have practically no MP due to having so little int.
Quote:Raising luk unduely would not only lower your chances of dealing better damage, but it wouldn't really give an effective advantage in any worthwhile way. It would be mildly useful for a CLERIC in 2ND JOB ONLY, but the cost of being weaker in general (and only a little stronger with Heal) and having less MP isn't worth it.And a hell lot of avoid.
Quote:Magicians aren't every other class. One magic attack affects a Magician much less than one weapon attack affects other classes. This is why it is not reasonable to say "other classes need many secondary stat to get attack, so magicians should require many secondary stat to get THEIR attack". No. Also: it takes a lot more than 3 secondary stat to get one weapon attack... their PRIMARY stat doesn't even have as a strong a turnout as that (I think it's around 5~10 of the primary AP to get one weapon attack usually).Read. I said 3 secondary stat equals 1 primary stat. Not 3 secondary stat equals 1 attack. Mages are a special case since 1 primary stat equals 1 attack, but primary and secondary should still be proportional.
Quote:Luk actually gives either equal or greater magical accuracy than int. Being pure luk wouldn't make them have any more misses.I meant player avoid, monster acc. Who doesn't want a bishop with the avoid of a dexless NL?
Quote:Like I said already, the INTENSELY minor advantage of being pure luk would be GROSSLY outweighed by the cost: weaker in general, way too little MP. And the only advantage would be to have Heal damage be a bit stronger (again, assuming the formula is entirely accurate), and that "advantage" would only carry CLERICS through 2ND JOB ONLY. It really is like HP warriors-- tough time through 1st job, 2nd job made a lot easier, but useless at high levels.80% power is not "useless". You might as well say that all existing normal LUK magicians are "useless".
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Afrobean - 2008-09-04
Russt Wrote:MP Increase. They'll still have plenty of MP. At level 100 you're looking at around 2000 MP less. Seems like a lot, but it's no big deal really. No one gets even close to being 1hko'd with MG on in any practical situation.I don't think you understand how things are compounded. I'm at level 130 and I'm about 1k short of the MP I could be at because I converted to lukless at level 100 instead of being lukless from the getgo. Being intless would account for much more than 2k MP, and even if they could still get by without it, that's not to say it would be a reasonable build anyway. Seriously, they'd be 20% weaker, have a great deal less MP. And what are the benefits? Clerics being a little stronger in 2nd job, and increased avoid? Totally not worth it. It is EXACTLY like HP Warriors-- how many people do you see complaining that 2nd job HP Warriors can tank anything? None. Because it doesn't matter. Because the build doesn't work in a truly applicable way.
Quote:Read. I said 3 secondary stat equals 1 primary stat. Not 3 secondary stat equals 1 attack. Mages are a special case since 1 primary stat equals 1 attack, but primary and secondary should still be proportional.Whatever. Anyway, it doesn't necessarily need to be .8 anyway if this sort of thing were to happen. It could be a little lower, really. To be honest, I haven't run the numbers on what the break even point on it would be to make it such that the magic given from luk would allow luk to be on par with lukless, considering luk using a luk weapon and lukless using the level 130 wand.
Quote:I meant player avoid, monster acc. Who doesn't want a bishop with the avoid of a dexless NL?One who realizes that taking damage as a Cleric/Priest is meaningless (Clerics and Priests literally live inside mobs, constantly taking damage and constantly healing) and that sacrificing damaging power to save a little on HP pots is not the Bishop way. Really, how often do you think a Skele does a MISS on a Nightlord/Shadower? I think you're overestimating the worth of avoid.
Quote:80% power is not "useless". You might as well say that all existing normal LUK magicians are "useless".Yes. All normal luk magicians are now "useless". They can keep playing their characters, but they have ZERO chance of stacking up against a lukless now. Before they could get on level with luklesses with enough money invested in equipment, but now they really have got no chance-- no matter what they do, the weapon they use would be the same as if they were lukless. In other words, luk as a secondary stat is no longer of any use outside of armor, and the armor alone cannot close the cost gap.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Russt - 2008-09-05
It's not whether there's a point to a pure LUK build or not. It's the fact that it'd be possible, and not significantly weaker.
Depending on the context, 20% may count as "significantly weaker" if you're talking about equip differences in the same class, subclass, and build. But not when you're comparing cross-class, or in this case, a completely different build which was never meant to be playable at all in the first place. Illustrated by the fact that pure LUK hits straight 1's on anything higher than level 20.
It's not the fact that pure LUK would supersede standard builds, which they won't. Just the fact that they would outdamage any other build with a certain 2nd job skill, even if said skill can't carry them anywhere past 80, shows the senselessness of the thing.
And no, it's not a problem with the 130 wands, which you brought up earlier. Sure, the 130 wands definitely help the LUKlesses. But even if you took them out, and the 70s, and Shine/Wisdom, and even Noc/Lama/Maple Staff...
A LUKless wooden wand user would still be playable. Weaker than today's standard, sure, but definitely still playable. For an endgame equip set that costs 500k at most, it'd perform pretty pineappling well.
The weapons are not the issue. The formula is and has always been limequat, and we all know it.
(...No, 'limequat' was not an act of the censor.)
Rebalancing magic so that it's fixed at ~2.5 INT : 1 MA would be the most sensible solution. And if you're going to be so paranoid about LUKlesses losing 10-15 magic, why not just buff the spell formula a bit for everyone.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - KaidaTan - 2008-09-05
I think making Luck add magic is the easiest and fastest way to go about fixing this Luck/Luckless problem, though I agree .8 is a big large. Hell, even .4 would close the gap. Problem is those luckless wands. But the level 162ish Luck Elemental Staves are out right? Wouldn't those be better to use than an Elemental Wand if luck gave around .5 or .6 magic?
As for fixing the Ultimates, I thought of my new favorite way to deal with them. Raze NLC (or raise the prices to something like kMS or higher) and make Genesis cost 7000 MP at max level.
Oh, as a sidenote, I think there should be Holy Elemental Wands/Staves, but they would give 10% to Holy, not 25%.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Xaorath - 2008-09-05
Hmmm... Some interesting, creative ideas I've seen in this thread.
First off, I agree that they need to balance the Luk vs. Lukless Builds. I used to be a regular luk Bishop with 90 base Luk and after realizing how much better lukless is, I converted using the MTS. There's no doubt about it, lukless is better in every way. Not only are you stronger and don't have to change equipment every few levels, but a lot of the lukless weapons are cheaper. Also, lukless magicians tend to have more MP due to having higher INT. So my question is, why does nexon continue to release weapons that make lukless even stronger? The elemental staves are a perfect example. Why would someone raise their luk to 165 to equip one of the staves when you can wear a 145 m.atk base wand with zero luk?
As for balancing the ultimates... Raising the cost of potions in NLC would effect all classes, not just mages. Therefore, if nexon raised the prices of those potions, I guarentee you 95% of the community, even those that are not mages or bishops, would complain. Also, making Genesis cost 7000 MP would make no sense since Bishops do not get AMP (The reason why mages ultimates cost 7000 MP and not 3500 MP at max level is due to amp doubling the MP cost while increasing damage output). However, if nexon actually did what you suggested and released a Lukless Lv.130 wand like the others with 145 Base M.ATK and +10% to holy damage while raising Genesis MP Cost to 7000, I can guarentee that people would just complain even more about nexon making bishops stronger. Mages are already mad that Bishops can equip the elemental wands, how do you think they'd feel if there was a wand specifically made for Bishops? Furthermore, The MP cost would not stop Bishops from spamming it or make them go broke doing so. Mages would be mad because Bishops would actually be getting a performance boost and instead of these wands doing what they were supposibly intended to do (Balance mages with other classes) They'd just end up making Bishops AND mages stronger.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - KaidaTan - 2008-09-05
Xaorath Wrote:As for balancing the ultimates... Raising the cost of potions in NLC would effect all classes, not just mages. Therefore, if nexon raised the prices of those potions, I guarentee you 95% of the community, even those that are not mages or bishops, would complain.So? Every other version has expensive as hell % pots. We're the only ones getting a break. Also, when I visited kMS, Arch-Mages didn't train with ultimates because they went broke doing so. Here they make a profit. I don't think ultimates were meant to be spammed to train with.
To hell with the complainers. It's not like we don't already have a bunch of really nice iTCG stuff that no one else has.
Xaorath Wrote:Also, making Genesis cost 7000 MP would make no sense since Bishops do not get AMP (The reason why mages ultimates cost 7000 MP and not 3500 MP at max level is due to amp doubling the MP cost while increasing damage output).
Really? Well then making Genesis nearly as strong as its amp'd counterparts even though they don't have amp makes a lot of sense too? Making Genesis 7000 is merely leveling the playing field.
And the only way to really balance mages with other classes is to destroy all Onyx Apples. To be honest, I'd love for it to happen. Not only would mages have a purpose (which I am all for), but I would actually be stronger than those damned Night Lords. Onyx Apples broke this game to such an extreme degree; I wish they'd disappear.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Xaorath - 2008-09-05
KaidaTan Wrote:So? Every other version has expensive as hell % pots. We're the only ones getting a break. Also, when I visited kMS, Arch-Mages didn't train with ultimates because they went broke doing so. Here they make a profit. I don't think ultimates were meant to be spammed to train with.
To hell with the complainers. It's not like we don't already have a bunch of really nice iTCG stuff that no one else has.
I've never been to KMS but I can speak for MapleSEA. They don't have NLC and they still Ult. train. Maybe it's your opinion that ultimates weren't meant to be trained with but in order to get a reasonable % an hour without ultimates, nexon would have to revise the mage/bishop skillbook cause CL, Angel Ray and Paralyze aren't cutting it.
KaidaTan Wrote:Really? Well then making Genesis nearly as strong as its amp'd counterparts even though they don't have amp makes a lot of sense too? Making Genesis 7000 is merely leveling the playing field.
And the only way to really balance mages with other classes is to destroy all Onyx Apples. To be honest, I'd love for it to happen. Not only would mages have a purpose (which I am all for), but I would actually be stronger than those damned Night Lords. Onyx Apples broke this game to such an extreme degree; I wish they'd disappear.
Genesis to Meteo/Blizzard base attack is the same like Ice Strike to Shining Ray. After AMP both Blizzard and Meteor are 100 basic attack stronger than Genesis. Raising it to 7000 would not level the playing field, it'd just be BS to charge us for an AMP that we do not have. In third job, Ice Strike is weaker than Shining Ray before AMP but Shining Ray does not cost twice as much. It's the same thing here, just on a larger scale.
It sounds to me more like you guys would like nexon to make the ultimates unusable in training without giving mages/bishops anything else to work with in return. That does not seem very fair to me. We can not Shining Ray our way to Lv.200. Be reasonable, that's not balance that's just nerfing out the mages/bishops entirely.
As far as balance goes, Onyx apples are only a factor at bosses. But removing the Onyx apples entirely is not the *only* way to balance mages. They could instead buff the apples up so that they give a reasonable amount of m.atk. If they simply -took out- the Onyx Apples, bosses such as horntail would be too difficult for most people to defeat and you could forget the time temple boss. In KMS, which does not have apples, adjustments to the bosses to make them possible to defeat are already being made.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Dusk - 2008-09-05
Xaorath Wrote:As far as balance goes, Onyx apples are only a factor at bosses. But removing the Onyx apples entirely is not the *only* way to balance mages. They could instead buff the apples up so that they give a reasonable amount of m.atk. If they simply -took out- the Onyx Apples, bosses such as horntail would be too difficult for most people to defeat and you could forget the time temple boss. In KMS, which does not have apples, adjustments to the bosses to make them possible to defeat are already being made.
Horntail would not be too difficult to defeat. Other versions defeat it without the assistance of apples. Bossing is a major part of the endgame experience and Onyx Apples completely break the balance of classes. Dexless NLs are always and forever stronger than regular builds with the assistance of apples. They're favored at bosses because their apples last 15 minutes, and they do ridiculous amounts of damage because their W. Att difference is smoothed out with a constant +100 to everyone. Mages would actually do reasonable levels of single-target damage (though the elemental wands would still be needed to match most phys classes).
I would rather see them take away a lot of HP from the bosses and phase out Onyx Apples (and maybe revamp the APQ drops so there's something else worth looking for) than keep it the way it is with the current system.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - KaidaTan - 2008-09-05
Xaorath Wrote:I've never been to KMS but I can speak for MapleSEA. They don't have NLC and they still Ult. train. Maybe it's your opinion that ultimates weren't meant to be trained with but in order to get a reasonable % an hour without ultimates, nexon would have to revise the mage/bishop skillbook cause CL, Angel Ray and Paralyze aren't cutting it.I was under the assumption that in nearly all the other servers Arch-Mages trained with their Demon, Summon, and CL/Paralyze while Bishops still Genesis spammed because it was far cheaper and they don't really have an alternative. I guess that isn't such a great idea after all and I kind of enjoy the cheap pots myself. Sorry, I was a bit tired when I wrote that.
Xaorath Wrote:Genesis to Meteo/Blizzard base attack is the same like Ice Strike to Shining Ray. After AMP both Blizzard and Meteor are 100 basic attack stronger than Genesis. Raising it to 7000 would not level the playing field, it'd just be BS to charge us for an AMP that we do not have. In third job, Ice Strike is weaker than Shining Ray before AMP but Shining Ray does not cost twice as much. It's the same thing here, just on a larger scale.Yeah, sorry, 7000 would just gimp Bishops like you said. I guess I'm just a bit irked that Arch-Mages and especially Holy-Mages can train twice as fast solo as anyone else can do in a good party. Supposedly the balance to this should be that Arch-Mages are horrible at bossing, but I disagree with this. Mages would be perfectly fine damage doers if it weren't for Onyx Apples.
It sounds to me more like you guys would like nexon to make the ultimates unusable in training without giving mages/bishops anything else to work with in return. That does not seem very fair to me. We can not Shining Ray our way to Lv.200. Be reasonable, that's not balance that's just nerfing out the mages/bishops entirely.
It is a little rash to jump to things like 7000 MP Genesis and expensive pots without thinking about it a bit. I think I like Afrobean's suggestion quite a bit actually. Give them all the same base, make amp not affect any of them. Ideally though, it would be just what you said. Remove them entirely and replace them with other mob skills that help them train quickly. Big Bang could have served this purpose if they didn't make it suck so much.
Xaorath Wrote:As far as balance goes, Onyx apples are only a factor at bosses. But removing the Onyx apples entirely is not the *only* way to balance mages. They could instead buff the apples up so that they give a reasonable amount of m.atk. If they simply -took out- the Onyx Apples, bosses such as horntail would be too difficult for most people to defeat and you could forget the time temple boss. In KMS, which does not have apples, adjustments to the bosses to make them possible to defeat are already being made.
Of course removing them isn't the only way, but I think it's the best way. If you make Onyx Apples give say... 700 magic, you'll have tons of 3x-6x using one of them to kill several monsters way above their level and get absurd exp (assuming they can hit said monsters.) Anyway, I would much rather they be removed so that skills such as Enrage and Concentrate have more of a purpose.
You talk as if no one else has defeated HT because they don't have apples. As it is now, my HT runs take around 50 minutes on average. Apples give NLs about 90% more power while they give everyone else around 70% more power. Even if the runs took 80% longer (this assumes half the damage is done by NLs), an HT run would only be 90 minutes without apples. I don't know about you, but I think that's a perfectly fine amount of time to kill what is supposed to be our strongest boss at this point. In addition, it makes Arch-Mages relatively a lot less worthless. Reducing the bosses HP is hardly necessary even without apples. I have no idea why they did that in kMS and I strongly disagree with it.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Cyanne - 2008-09-05
MapleSea has NPC-purchaseable mushroom miso ramen for 12k each, by the way. They heal 80% of both hp and mp.
About ultimate mp, element amplification's tradeoff is to spend two times more mp to do 1.35x damage, not to spend two times more mp just to do the same amount or a tiny bit of the amount of damage genesis does. Genesis's spell attack being lowered by 100 would be the best solution instead of leaving amp there as a skill to "even out" with genesis.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - throughglassdarkly - 2008-09-12
They should've considered that earlier, but now that Archmages have access to elemental weapons it's probably too late to weaken Genesis. As things stand Bishops now have a pretty large disadvantage when it comes to # hits to kill, IMO. At level 1, assuming max EA and an Elemental Staff, Blizzard has 556.875 to Gene's 430. Sure, Bishops have HS and Gene hits faster, but 2 more hits per minute really makes no difference when you're 1 or 2-hitting monsters, and HS is easily obtainable using a mule. With relatively average equips and a clean lv 105 Staff, a low luk IL Archmage can start to 2hit Jr Newties at around level 125 with level 9 Blizzard; I'm not sure Bishops come anywhere close without having to buy pretty ridiculous equips.
Anyway, even on servers without NLC pots, I think pot cost is pretty irrelevant with the number of people clamoring for leech slots. I'm on SEA, and I previously managed to find plenty of people willing to fork out around 6-7m per hour (and this was for exp only equivalent to about 3HKO Newties). I'm not sure pot cost can ever exceed that amount, even without % pots.
Also, does anyone seriously think Skeles were meant to be an end-game map? I personally find their exp is pretty horrid for anyone approaching 150, and they're pretty much similar to Newties EXP-wise anyway. On MSEA, at least, we got several spamming maps with neutral mobs that are superior to Skeles/Newties, which tips the scales in favour of Archmages. For the other versions, Time Temple should eventually be released, and the mobs there will probably be elemental-weak, which will give Archmages even more of an advantage.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Stereo - 2008-09-12
Xaorath Wrote:Genesis to Meteo/Blizzard base attack is the same like Ice Strike to Shining Ray. After AMP both Blizzard and Meteor are 100 basic attack stronger than Genesis. Raising it to 7000 would not level the playing field, it'd just be BS to charge us for an AMP that we do not have. In third job, Ice Strike is weaker than Shining Ray before AMP but Shining Ray does not cost twice as much. It's the same thing here, just on a larger scale.
Ice Strike v. Shining Ray:
121.5 amped vs. 105 base (no element) = 115% advantage for IS
100 mp vs. 50 mp (3000 mp per minute extra or so)
200% range vs. 100% range
freeze vs. no freeze
64 per minute vs. 57 per minute = 112% advantage for IS
Blizzard v. Genesis:
756 amped vs. 660 base = 115% advantage for Blizzard
7000 mp vs. 3500 mp (70000 mp per minute extra or so)
400% range vs. 400% range
freeze vs. no freeze
20 per minute vs. 22 per minute = 110% advantage for Genesis
To make all things equal to IS vs. SR, we could adjust Genesis to this:
660 base
200% range
no freeze
18 per minute
Ice Strike's doubled range and freeze make up for its lower base damage (in terms of being a worthy skill). And even then Priests are the fastest 3rd job training class, due to HS and Holy weak monsters. :l
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - Afrobean - 2008-09-12
Rather than bring Genesis down (both in cast speed and base), why not bring Blizzard up? Rather than tell Bishops they should be weaker and slower, why not tell Mages they should be stronger and faster?
Incidentally, a Blizzard hitting with an Ice Wand is only a little short of Genesis hitting Holy-weak. That's great right? But wait! Why not just make Blizzard 25% stronger then and cut out the gach bullpumpernickel that makes all other weapons inconsiderable as endgame weapon.
Seriously, if they're going to do this weapon pomegranate, they need to create scrolls like they did for shoes in El Nath or capes in El Nath. The ones that don't take up slots. Give people a way to get the 25% boost they need to make up for Nexon's failure to deliver good monsters WITHOUT making all other weapons fucking worthless.
The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread - kIkO - 2008-09-12
[COLOR="Red"]Gen = Holy so ... easier to train at skele...
Blizz= Freeze BUT you use a lot of mp
Meteor= Strong at newties [i think o.o]
BUUT bishops have hs x3[/COLOR]
oh and elemental wands/staffs give bonus now...