¬Rob Wrote:Sweet, to be sure, which skills should be maxed first, or rather, what order? I've 20 FC, 30 BF, 1 PB, 13 mastery, 5 in sharpness and thorns, and 1 in everything else in 4th. I quit pre-BB, so I had a bunch of points and tossed them around, picking up books like PB and various mastery books whenever. SP reset is coming, so I can fix them up later if needed.

Mazz Wrote:Finish maxing Final Cut, then Sharpness, then Mastery, then Thorns, then Toxic Venom, and after that start working on Phantom Blow, level 1 should be good enough for now though. Final Cut is pretty much the biggest boost in damage you'll get, I'd suggest start collecting all the circulators/medal of honour you find and if you get lucky you'll be able to land 19/32% buff duration which is a huuuge help for Final Cut too.

PS. is that an Explorer's Critical Ring? I wish I could move mine to my DB, it's stuck on my Shadower

CherryPie Wrote:Well, skipping putting 1 point into the core 4th job skills, i'd go

1. Sharpness
2. Dual Wield Expert
3. Thorns
4. Final Cut
5. Blade Fury/Phantom Blow - depending on your training style
6. MW/Venom/SuddenRaid/Mirrored Target in any order. Myself, i never use Sudden Raid or Mirrored Target, so I'd recommend going down MW or Venom route.

Also, you could decide to skip Thorns till after FC/BF/PB I think, but I enjoy the stance it gives. Seeing as you're at level 126, SP reset should give you enough SP to max DWE, Sharpness and Thorns


-edit, ninja'd by [MENTION=2375]Mazz[/MENTION]; -

¬Rob Wrote:Thanks guys! And yeah, it's the original crit ring, +2atk/1matk, some HP, and crit chance/damage +10%(I recall a 2nd one giving some static stats as well).
Currently, am waiting for [MENTION=8831]Onion Knight[/MENTION]; to get our guild HS slave to 120, so we can level both together(so we can have some HS later on @ HoH/TP), I'll most likely get this to 200 at the least, may go farther.

Also, is +19% buff duration enough to keep FC up infinitely? I should go look at it's duration/CD later.

Mazz Wrote:Finish maxing Final Cut, then Sharpness, then Mastery, then Thorns, then Toxic Venom, and after that start working on Phantom Blow, level 1 should be good enough for now though. Final Cut is pretty much the biggest boost in damage you'll get, I'd suggest start collecting all the circulators/medal of honour you find and if you get lucky you'll be able to land 19/32% buff duration which is a huuuge help for Final Cut too.

PS. is that an Explorer's Critical Ring? I wish I could move mine to my DB, it's stuck on my Shadower

HeavyMenace Wrote:What would a guy like you need an explorer's ring for? I have one stuck on my shadower as well and I'm just realizing how useless it is nowadays with flip of the coin. Every time I buff up I get 100% crit rate and I don't even need the ring for that. Even on a dual blade I would think it's much better to have a high atk and/or % luk ring because of shadow meld.

HeavyMenace Wrote:What would a guy like you need an explorer's ring for? I have one stuck on my shadower as well and I'm just realizing how useless it is nowadays with flip of the coin. Every time I buff up I get 100% crit rate and I don't even need the ring for that. Even on a dual blade I would think it's much better to have a high atk and/or % luk ring because of shadow meld.

Mazz Wrote:It isn't for the critical rate, it's for the critical damage, if I'm thinking of the right ring. It's either the Explorer's Critical or Explorer's Cruel ring that has a ton of maximum critical damage, iirc Dual Blade doesn't get any %max crit damage by default, but we get 25% minimum from Sharpness. Since Shadow Meld means we have essentially 100% critical rate, crit damage is a really big boost for Dual Blades. Should be 145% - 150% damage without any extra items or potential lines.

I just looked it up actually and it's 10/20% minimum crit damage, I thought it was max, but minimum is still useful, your crit damage should always be 150% - 150% with one of those rings unless you have a ton of max crit damage cubed onto gloves or something. If we get Tyrant gloves I'd try and cube those for %max crit damage and at that point a Critical Ring would be a really big boost, I'd probably sacrifice one of my potential rings for it, but I doubt we'll get another event for them as good as the previous ones.

Actually, I forgot about SE/dSE, which is +15%/25% max crit damage, so even without %max crit damage cubed one of those rings would still be a nice damage boost.

HeavyMenace Wrote:Now I'm glad I asked. I was considering dropping it when I got a pinnacle ring. I guess I didn't pay attention to the fine print. Thanks ^^ Do tyrant gloves exist in KMS? :f6:

Mazz Wrote:Yup, they came out with Kritias I think:



Not sure how good they are compared to Dojo gloves, but with 7-10 stars and good potential I imagine they'd be pretty decent. And no problem it's kinda frustrating, I have 2-3 really good items on my Shadower that are totally untradeable, including one of those Critical Rings. I wish Nexon would come out with some Sharing Tag-esque item to make normally untradeable items account movable or something

CherryPie Wrote:Rank 1 Dojos are going to be pretty hard to beat though, cause I know atm Rank 1 Dojo Gloves gives .. almost 2x my 7 starred tyrant's range.. and we're not even talking about the boss damage bonuses.

I'm not too sure if the max min crit would be entirely worth getting it over dojo gloves

Mazz Wrote:I just looked it up actually and it's 10/20% minimum crit damage, I thought it was max, but minimum is still useful, your crit damage should always be 150% - 150% with one of those rings unless you have a ton of max crit damage cubed onto gloves or something. If we get Tyrant gloves I'd try and cube those for %max crit damage and at that point a Critical Ring would be a really big boost, I'd probably sacrifice one of my potential rings for it, but I doubt we'll get another event for them as good as the previous ones.

Actually, I forgot about SE/dSE, which is +15%/25% max crit damage, so even without %max crit damage cubed one of those rings would still be a nice damage boost.

iAmFear Wrote:On average, without Decent SE, for a DB, the damage increase for a critical ring on top of what you would have on average is 1.69% damage (1.5/1.475), with Decent SE, it goes up to 3.22% (1.6/1.55), and with actual SE it actually goes down to 3.07% (1.675/1.625)

If you were to get a % LUK Ring to replace it, the amount of % LUK, then the % LUK ring should beat the crit ring so long as you have under the following amounts of % LUK:

Ring	Base	DSE	SE
3%	77%
6%	254%	86%	95%
9%	431%	179%	193%
12%	608%	272%	290%
15%	785%	365%	388%
18%	962%	458%	485%
21%	1139%	551%	583%
24%	1316%	644%	680%
27%	1493%	737%	778%

The blank cells indicate situations in which the critical ring is always better.

 Math

Because of Shadow Meld, I assumed 100% Crit Rate, so the average crit damage bonus is just the average of min and max crit, which hold the following values:

	Min	Max	Max DSE	Max SE
Base	1.45	1.5	1.65	1.8
Ring	1.55	1.5	1.65	1.8

Without the DSE or SE, the 155% min crit from the ring is rounded down to 150%, so the averages are the following:

	Base	DSE	SE
Base	1.475	1.55	1.625
Ring	1.5	1.6	1.675

Then the damage increases are (Ring Avg)/(Base Avg), which yields 1.0169, 1.0322, 1.031.

Then to compare with a % LUK ring, we choose a % LUK, dx, set the ring's damage boost (defined as 1 + the % damage boost in decimal form) r equal to (x+dx)/x.
(x + dx)/x = r
x + dx = rx
dx = (r - 1)x
x = dx/(r - 1)

Then the current % LUK is equal to x - 1 in percent form, since the damage boost from % LUK is 1 more than your % LUK in decimal form.

While critical rings are very nice rings as they are, I'm pretty sure if you had the funding required to reach one of the milestones (i.e. After 272% LUK with Decent SE, the crit ring would beat a 12% LUK ring), you could afford to get the next % ring (following the previous example, a 15% LUK ring). However, I'm sure there also comes a point at which getting the next ring is unlikely, for example, you have 645% LUK (is that even possible?) with Decent SE, but it's improbable that you could get a 27% LUK ring, at which point, the crit ring would pretty much be your best option. (Note, that I completely forgot that a primary and two secondary lines of the same stat at Legendary would be 30%, and a perfect ring would be 36%).

For now, this is a moot point, given that there are not yet 4 readily available third tier potential rings, but it won't be that way for long. But then, given that Tempest, Pinnacle, and Unleashed rings are no longer obtainable, you gotta think eventually the supply on those will run out, especially pinnacle.

Mazz Wrote:Well, currently my Tyrant boots boost my range by 178k, and rank 1 Dojo gloves boost my range by 174k (when I have no shoes or gloves equipped), so I imagine they'd be pretty close.. but I dunno, if we do get Tyrant gloves I'll probably throw a few scrolls on/5 star and unique pot for 9% LUK and just use them to get Dojo gloves at least xD

Mazz Wrote:

stupid game

Mazz Wrote:snip

yep

--

They're not really comparable though, first screenshot was clean (no buffs), second screenshot I was fully buffed - without any buffs I was at about 770k range though, which is still f'ucking stupid.
I was going to wait until after RED when I'll have upgraded more, but there'll be more AP resets anyway and it was annoying me sitting in my inventory.