Dusk Wrote:Newties, which is one of the best party training spots for the levels it is intended for (105-14x) is always full of leechers =(

Peak is not nearly as friendly for ranged classes, nor are most of the other maps.

Newties are the best map for ranged classes, newties are not the ONLY map for ranged classes. Atleast you have the option of killing bigfoot or anego when you can't find a spot. Melee classes don't.

It's hard to find a top/mid spot in Bera because there are so many of them. I agree that most of them will quit, and I don't care about that. Edit: Just today I had a conversation with a leecher who will most definitely quit before he gets anywhere in 4th job.
Me, on my 98 Outlaw: (seeing AM leeching a 102 Outlaw) Can I solo the bottom of this map?
AM: (no response)
OL: u train here???
Me: Where else would I train?
OL: wow let me see
I'm like, what? but start bottoming as usual. OL observes for a few minutes, and asks about where to put his skills.
OL: see, i dunno where to train xD
OL: i just leech xD
I f3 and he goes back up to leech. The AM DCs. He comes back down.
OL: my leecher dc'd *f4*
Me: So why don't you train?
OL: i'm scurred
OL: so much dmgs. you don't die?
Me: Nope. (to self: wow why the pineapple are you playing a ranged class then)
OL: let me try to kill [a nest golem] (because he hasn't done once what I've been doing to train since early 9x)
I move to the bottom right, and the Outlaw demonstrates his crappy damage and lack of control. He eventually kills one, and provokes another to transform when the AM comes back and everything goes back to the way it was.

Yeah, I really don't care that he's higher level or if he's levelling faster than me. I don't care that he has no idea how to play his character, nor that he won't be able to tell anyone where Outlaws train or what their skill build should look like. What's annoying is that he's there, clogging up the spot. It's the way the whole system works that I think is broken.

He's not clogging the spot, the mage is. He's just sitting on the rope. If no one ever sold leech, that doesn't mean there won't be mages training at newties. If he wasn't buying leech, he'd be in the spot you were trying to train at.

Put it this way. Most people want to level faster, right? So they'll seek out the fastest way to gain exp. Right now, from 78-early 12x, the fastest way by far is to leech a magician. Leeching a Bishop at Harps around level 80 is over 50% an hour. The next best option for most classes is soloing Windraiders or partying at MP3, which typically nets 20-30%, depending on your class and your damage. What that says is, if I'm 3rd job and want to level as fast as possible, I have no other option than to leech.

Of course you have no other option. The absolute fastest way to level is only going to be one way. There can't be 10 absolutely fastest ways to level, because if there were 10 absolutely fastest ways, then there wouldn't be a fastEST way.

It makes no sense. I want to level, but the fastest way to do so is to pay a lot of money and go afk while someone else does it for me? That's just depressing. And in most of the places that are suitable for leeching, it doesn't even matter if the leecher is doing anything or not. At Harps, there's not much for them to do other than collect loot, because the mage will be killing the entire map off from one spot. Even at Newties, where the leecher could potentially bottom, the bottom platform is usually ignored because it's less hassle for both the leecher and the mage to stay in one spot.

Mages were given the best training skill in exchange for the worse bossing skills. That's how the game is made. Of course the fastest leveling is going to be partying the person with the fastest training skill. That's completely obvious. Sorry that it's depressing but that's how the game is made. If they're up there training, and you're down below killing, then it doesnt effect you at all. Unless that mage is ksing you; I see no problems. About the leecher taking bottom, if he was taking bottom he wouldn't even be considered leeching. It's not about it being less of a hassle for them, it's about the buyer wanting to be lazy.

This is how it should work (fastest to slowest)

-Party with higher levels (lower level attacks)
-Party with similar levels
-Party with lower levels
-Solo
-Pure leeching

Mages are higher level, and the fastest training is partying is partying a mage and killing at the same time. Maybe you're right, that's how it SHOULD work. That's not how IT DOES work though.

And no, attackers shouldn't sell entrance to bosses. Everyone who wants to should have an equal opportunity at bossing, regardless of class. Same with training.

Everyone does have an equal opportunity at equal leveling speed. It's called partying a mage. Everyone also has an equal opportunity to kill a boss. It's called bringing an attacker. Whether you buy leech or not, partying a mage is going to be the fastest way to level. Whether you take attacking classes with you to bosses or not, taking an attacking class is going to be the fastest way to kill it.

DrRusty Wrote:Everyone does have an equal opportunity at equal leveling speed. It's called partying a mage. Everyone also has an equal opportunity to kill a boss. It's called bringing an attacker. Whether you buy leech or not, partying a mage is going to be the fastest way to level. Whether you take attacking classes with you to bosses or not, taking an attacking class is going to be the fastest way to kill it.

Dusk Wrote:Making a mage an absolute requirement for fast exp is stupid.

Dusk Wrote:1. The entire point of my post was to argue how it should work. The fastest way to train should not be afking on a rope and letting a mage blast the screen. Lazy leechers shouldn't be training faster than is possible for a grinder who used that money to buy good equipment. If parties where all members contributed was the best way to train, I would be happy and would have nothing to say.

I know that's how it should work. It would be nice if it was like that. Even with the current amount of leech selling, why does it matter to anyone if someone who's paying money to leech levels faster than anyone does? Like I said before, I can think of no other reason that leeching is bad other than "ppl2pass". When that guy runs out of money to leech, he won't be able to train normally, and the hardcore grinder will be the one who actually has money to keep his gear up since he didn't spend hundreds of mils on leech. The hardcore grinder will also be the one who can keep leveling up passed "leeching levels".

2. How do you expect a 3rd job Outlaw to train at Anego or Bigfoot?

There's also squids, gobies, vikings, sharks, and so on. You're not forced to train at newties. If all the newties maps are full, then just train somewhere else. That's how you build control with your char in any situation. If you sit and attack a single newtie all day long, you'll end up being no better at control as any leecher.

3. There would be fewer mages at Newties if everyone wasn't clamoring for leech there. Newties is only one of the many places mages can train.

Newties are also one of many places that ranged classes can train.

You and I are never going to agree on this one. I don't believe in this "one class should have a massive advantage here so the other class should be balanced by having a huge advantage there" crap. Bosses should require all kinds of classes, not just the ones with the highest DPS and a few supports. And training should be on a more equal level than is now for every class. Making a mage an absolute requirement for fast exp is stupid.

Well if Nexon was going to bring down mages training skills in exchange for bossing skills, then they also need to bring down NLs, Corsairs, BM's, and Heroes DPS in exchange for training speed. Mages are not going to always be an absolute requirement for fast exp, splitting crimson gaurdians with another attacker and a HS mule is also extremely fast. Killing anego/bigfoot when you get to that level is also extremely fast. When you get to that level you can go there, until then, tough luck.

Seriously dude, you keep tryna argue my points with how you wish things were. I'm telling how you things are, and you keep tryna say how they should be. We all know already how things SHOULD BE. We all know that doing nothing should not be the fastest way to level. We all know there should be bosses where everyone should be useful at. We all know that the classes should be more balanced than they are. We all know this shiet. I'm being real. Leeching mages from 78-130 is the fastest way to level PERIOD. Leeching does NOT effect anyone other than the two in the party.

It all comes down to jealousy. People wish they could level as fast grinding because they can't afford leech. People wish they nerfed mages because they can't get a mage to party with them. People wish they nerfed NL's damage formula because they can't outdamage a NL. People wish there was a boss everyone was useful at. The thing is there ISN'T. That's fact. That's how it is. We can sit here and wish up shiet all day long, but that isn't gonna change anything. Yes this is a forum, and we discuss these kinds of things here, but it doesn't make sense when someone is telling you how things are in the game, and you try to counter their point with what you wish things should be like.

Dusk Wrote:1. The entire point of my post was to argue how it should work. The fastest way to train should not be afking on a rope and letting a mage blast the screen. Lazy leechers shouldn't be training faster than is possible for a grinder who used that money to buy good equipment. If parties where all members contributed was the best way to train, I would be happy and would have nothing to say.

DrRusty Wrote:There's also squids, gobies, vikings, sharks, and so on. You're not forced to train at newties. If all the newties maps are full, then just train somewhere else. That's how you build control with your char in any situation. If you sit and attack a single newtie all day long, you'll end up being no better at control as any leecher.

nannerz Wrote:That might be how you think it *should* work (keyword: should) but, sorry, that is not how this system actually works. If I want to level fast, and I have the resources available, why wouldn't I aim for the fastest levelling method currently in existence? I don't see why people expect leechers to just stop leeching because they hold an idealistic view of how people should be playing this game. If you don't care to level like that, don't do it, and don't bash people who do. They had to obtain the mesos to pay somehow.

As for map availability...just because an AM/bishop wants to leech doesn't mean a map magically opens up for them. All of us have to look for maps.

Dusk Wrote:*facepalm* I know how the game actually works. I've been playing long enough to do that. Don't tell me my thoughts and ideas are invalid because that's not how it actually works. I know that leeching is faster than training, and that's why people do it. I think it's more contructive to talk about what should be done than how things already are.

Nobody said your thoughts and ideas were invalid. We're telling you to stop using thoughts and ideas to argue your point against someone elses point who uses what's actually implemented in the game to argue theirs. It's not more "constructive to talk about what should be done" because being constructive is dealing with the issues at hand, not saying "well I think this, this, and this should be how things work".


From level 90 onwards, there isn't a single map in the game that compares to Newties in terms of exp for Outlaws. CWK (and maybe Himes, but that's with a completely different build) caverns are the closest you can get, and that's like a 20-30% slower training speed. I don't train at Newties because I like it. I'd be at Gobies if Outlaws had any good mob skills.

Okay.... newties is the best map for outlaws... great... It's also the best experience for every ranged class and ultimate spamming mages. You honestly think getting rid of leechers is going to free up the most popular map in the game? I don't know who you're tryna fool.

Also, since I have to bottom 90% of the time, since I can't party at 98 and I train during hours when a lot of people are on, I'm moving back and forth, not attacking one Newtie >_>

Then go to squids. You're not the only person in the world. Everyone is trying to get a newties map. If you can't find a map then too bad. I'm sure you're not the only one.


Uh. What I said was, leeching shouldn't be faster than training. If it wasn't then there wouldn't be so many leechers. I don't bash leechers for leeching, because I know they're simply using their available resources. Instead of scolding them for doing it, I'd rather see the system changed so they can't do it nearly as effectively. And clearly there are a lot of people that agree with me on this point, because they're changing the way exp is split accordingly.

Well all know that leeching shouldn't be faster than training, but here we go again with the "should and shouldn't". Leeching is faster than training and that's that. You haven't been "bashing" leechers, but you sure as hell have been complaining about them in every post. Honestly.... There is no other reason that leeching is bad other than "ppl2pass". If you don't want to leech then don't leech. Stop complaining about the people who do leech, especially since it has no effect on you whatsoever. Did that other outlaw bother you in any way? The one who was leeching? Seemed to me like he just asked you some questions and that's it.

As for map availability, Newties is one of the best maps to leech on. Less people leeching = less people crowding that one map. It doesn't matter, though, since we should get the mini-dungeon eventually.

Newties = most popular map in GMS right now. Leechers or not, that map is going to be full regardless.

RDal Wrote:I just want to make a small interjection and respond to the idea of non-Magicians charging Magicians to go to bosses. When the Arch Mage or Bishop spends their entire time hanging on a rope using absolutely no pots and doing literally nothing, be my guest. Until then, it's not a fair comparison.

If a mage payed someone 8m an hour to attend their boss run, I'm sure any attackin party wouldn't mind them sitting and doing nothing.

chrisloup Wrote:you guys really miss the point.

leeching will stop once self training exceeds the benefits of leeching.

Leeching will never stop until they make everyone solo to get experience. As long as someone has the ability to do nothing and get level, leeching won't go away.

stuff like: guaranteed equip drops. (eg; down xxx monsters by self), or inflict a total of XXX damage , get a gacha tix. (imbalance, but same concept).

Again.... some people don't care about drops, they want levels. If they can afk and get levels, why would they care about drops.

mobs that are few in number, but high in hp/xp (to eliminate the mobbing aspect). eg: imagine manon has an infinite spawn + 10 times more xp.

no safe spots whatsoever.

That's why they don't leech at maps without safe spots :f6:

Kaasoljoyyx Wrote:Surprise no one posted this from sw yet

 Spoiler

I heard that you still get exp from your party members, it's just that you get less exp with this patch, way less.

Not sure but probably refering to soloing. HS gave 10% bonus exp when soloing, but now it will give more.

Here. I found more information on this.

Skelegon: 45000 exp (test server)
Skelos: 47500 exp

Lv.133 Bishop partying with Lv. 141 Bishop

When Lv. 133 Bishop deals all the damage
Skelegon: 32166 + 3217 (Party exp) = 35383 (78.6%)
Skelos: 33948 + 3395 = 37343 (78.6%)

When Lv. 133 Bishop does not deal any damage (leaching)
Skelegon: 7866 + 787 = 8653 (19.2%)
Skelos: 8298 + 830 = 9128 (19.2%)


When Lv. 141 Bishop deals all the damage
Skelegon: 29008 + 2901 (Party exp) = 31909 (70.9%)
Skelos: 30624 + 3062 = 33686 (70.9%)

When Lv. 141 Bishop does not deal any damage (leaching)
Skelegon: 7408 + 741 = 8149 (18.1%)
Skelos: 7824 + 782 = 8606 (18.1%)

... too many numbers for me...

All credits go to Piya from Insoya.

DrRusty Wrote:Originally Posted by RDal
I just want to make a small interjection and respond to the idea of non-Magicians charging Magicians to go to bosses. When the Arch Mage or Bishop spends their entire time hanging on a rope using absolutely no pots and doing literally nothing, be my guest. Until then, it's not a fair comparison.

If a mage payed someone 8m an hour to attend their boss run, I'm sure any attackin party wouldn't mind them sitting and doing nothing.

DrRusty Wrote:Mages sell training and attackers sell boss runs. Sounds good2me.

DrRusty Wrote:I don't see why people are so anal about others leeching. It does not effect anyone except the 2 people in the party. As soon as they gotta start training on their own (unless they wanna buy leech to 14x and beyond), they're just going to end up quitting. I know PLENTY of people like this. They keep buying leech and just end up stopping at high 12x or low 13x to try and get into a bossing zakum guild. After they get their fix on zakum, they try to train again complaining "OMG THIS TAKES SO LONG".

Honestly...... does anyone have a reason why leeching is bad other than "ppl2pass". So what if the other person becomes lazy, that's the other person's problem and has nothing to do with you. It's a good way to help mages pay for their pot burn, and takes away mesos from heavy merchants.