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+--- Thread: KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp (/showthread.php?tid=63715)
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - MetaSeraphim - 2013-04-12
Locked Wrote:at the time
That is the core at what you are saying. At the time Battle Mage was unique, at the time Angelic Buster was unique, at the time Mech was unique.
These classes are no longer unique, these classes are no longer special, they are all just another warrior/mage/archer/thief(Not even going to name Pirates here since they were the start of everything that was no longer unique.) with a brand new fresh coat of paint.
As I said, at the core all these classes and jobs are the same, they only get to be unique and special during the time they're released, but once something new comes out, BAM, all their skills are ripped off and given fresh coats of paint.
JoeTang Wrote:That's shocking. I wonder if any other game suffers from this issue.
Oh, yes, of course. Almost all video games have this problem when they have classes or jobs. It is the fate of the world that has ran out of new and fresh ideas.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Arrol - 2013-04-12
This is my philsphy in life.
I don't believe that we are running out of ideas. It'a just that humanity as a whole just don't want to sit and think anymore.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Thorr - 2013-04-12
MetaSeraphim Wrote:but once something new comes out, BAM, all their skills are ripped off and given fresh coats of paint.
This is Maplestory. It's a 2d game. That means the whole thing is nothing but a bunch of boxes painted in different ways. There are only so many ways you can make boxes interact with other boxes. The boxes have various numbers in them. There are only so many ways you make the numbers in one box affect the numbers in another box.
The core game engine is ALWAYS going to be limited. Because the core game engine is limited, any box built on the core game engine will share the same limitations. If you don't enjoy playing the core game, you won't ever enjoy Maplestory, regardless of what job you play. A job is just one way to paint a box.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - godofturtles - 2013-04-12
Wild Hunter "gimmicks" are not the same as the "gimmicks" of a class such as Luminous. Most new classes that they release have some sort of unique, non-cosmetic system (as in no jaguars/dragons that are mostly for aesthetics) that is supposed to set that class apart from others. Things like Demon Avenger's exceed system, Phantom's skill steal, etc. Of course in the end they all have similarities, but those so called gimmicks are the best they are gonna do in terms of making classes different. I'm guessing that at the moment, people are not completely ok with how Dawn Warrior's gimmick is turning out. I love the concept, but otherwise I'm really not getting the same feeling I got from the previous two revamps that really impressed me.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Curtiss - 2013-04-12
godofturtles Wrote:Wild Hunter "gimmicks" are not the same as the "gimmicks" of a class such as Luminous. Most new classes that they release have some sort of unique, non-cosmetic system (as in no jaguars/dragons that are mostly for aesthetics) that is supposed to set that class apart from others. Things like Demon Avenger's exceed system, Phantom's skill steal, etc. Of course in the end they all have similarities, but those so called gimmicks are the best they are gonna do in terms of making classes different. I'm guessing that at the moment, people are not completely ok with how Dawn Warrior's gimmick is turning out. I love the concept, but otherwise I'm really not getting the same feeling I got from the previous two revamps that really impressed me.
That neatly outlines how I feel about this particular revamp. The concept is actually something I thought I would like in time and the animations are appealing to me, but on the whole the concept pans out because I can't get enthusiastic over its attacks when they're a poor fit for a two-handed sword user and seeing more attacks only makes me think of how it would look cooler on some other class.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Arcana27961 - 2013-04-12
Thorr Wrote:This is Maplestory. It's a 2d game. That means the whole thing is nothing but a bunch of boxes painted in different ways. There are only so many ways you can make boxes interact with other boxes. The boxes have various numbers in them. There are only so many ways you make the numbers in one box affect the numbers in another box.
The core game engine is ALWAYS going to be limited. Because the core game engine is limited, any box built on the core game engine will share the same limitations. If you don't enjoy playing the core game, you won't ever enjoy Maplestory, regardless of what job you play. A job is just one way to paint a box.
And having over 30 classes doesn't help at all.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Locked - 2013-04-12
Thorr Wrote:This is Maplestory. It's a 2d game. That means the whole thing is nothing but a bunch of boxes painted in different ways. There are only so many ways you can make boxes interact with other boxes. The boxes have various numbers in them. There are only so many ways you make the numbers in one box affect the numbers in another box.
The core game engine is ALWAYS going to be limited. Because the core game engine is limited, any box built on the core game engine will share the same limitations. If you don't enjoy playing the core game, you won't ever enjoy Maplestory, regardless of what job you play. A job is just one way to paint a box.
Once again, like I told Joe earlier this is decay semantics. Anything can be seen as absolutely lame and horrible if we decay it to its absolute minimum.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Thorr - 2013-04-12
I think you guys are not seeing my point of view. I love this game. I love the mechanics. I know what it is and I know what I can reasonably expect to get out of it. I disagree with the criticism that this game is supposed to grow beyond its core. I am not saying the game is lame because it's a terrible core. I am saying that if you take all the way back and don't like it, then you never will like it. I'd play this game if it was nothing but boxes.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Singaporean - 2013-04-12
MetaSeraphim Wrote:That is the core at what you are saying. At the time Battle Mage was unique, at the time Angelic Buster was unique, at the time Mech was unique.
These classes are no longer unique, these classes are no longer special, they are all just another warrior/mage/archer/thief(Not even going to name Pirates here since they were the start of everything that was no longer unique.) with a brand new fresh coat of paint.
As I said, at the core all these classes and jobs are the same, they only get to be unique and special during the time they're released, but once something new comes out, BAM, all their skills are ripped off and given fresh coats of paint.
Oh, yes, of course. Almost all video games have this problem when they have classes or jobs. It is the fate of the world that has ran out of new and fresh ideas.
I'm confused.
How is BAM no longer unique? I don't get these arguments about uniqueness or not. Every single class is fundamentally a mage thief warrior pirate or archer. You cannot say that pirates were the start of this "non-uniqueness" because pirates were an excellent addition as a class. I'd seriously like to hear how they were the start of this.
Honestly, I only feel that the classes that suffer most from this "non-uniqueness" are archers. Can't really do much about it either. They are ALL going to fire arrows. Pretty much all of them have a "hurricane" skill in addition to corsairs and phantoms. Despite this though, the classes do have unique aspects to them.
I for one feel that the class remaining true to its original conception is a good thing. I'd really love to hear how mech, AB, and BaM are not unique.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Razmos - 2013-04-12
Speaking of Archers, I think the whole idea behind the "Archer" branch needs to be revamped. There is a reason why there are so few Archer classes, because the idea is hard to work with. Bowmen use bows. Crossbowmen use crossbows. Mercedes uses what is basically 2 crossbows. Wild Hunter also uses a crossbow, but while moving.
The classes themselves are limited to the kind of weapons they use, and aside from maybe Slingshots and Javelins, I can't think of any other kind of weapon that an archer should use. They need to expand the idea, maybe by renaming the branch to something else so that they have more to work with.
Angelic Buster and Xenon are clear signs that classes don't have to be connected to their roots. An archer doesn't have to be ranged, it just has to use Dex. So you could expand archers to include nimble classes like Acrobats or Dancers. Or nature or spirit based magic like a Druid or Bard.
So many unused ideas, so much potential. Give us more archer classes!
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Kubi - 2013-04-12
I don't think Nexon minds creating new weapon types for new classes whether it makes sense or not as long as they can get people to cube a new item. Like for an AB being labelled a pirate class, even though she has nothing to do with it, including the weapon type. We can only hope Nexon plans and plays with their ideas to make them more creative and make sense in a way. It would sound odd itself to add a bit of logic and realism to MapleStory, but oh well.
If JMS ever created the Archer Sengoku class, I'm betting they would use something along the lines of short/longbows (or even something like spirit bows or whatnot to add a bit of fantasy to it) to fit the story and theme of being from a historical time... They may essentially be the same as a regular bow, but different variety weapon types for MapleStory.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Hanabira.Kage - 2013-04-12
When I saw Moon Shadow's animation, the first thing that came to my mind was "ZANKUUJIN!! MUJINSHOUUUUUUUUUUU!!!"
I wonder if that's where they got the animation from.
Haven't checked the ranges on the skills yet, but if most of the skills have the same ranges for both their Sol and Lune versions, it's gonna be real disappointing.
Spoiler
I wonder if that's where they got the animation from.
Haven't checked the ranges on the skills yet, but if most of the skills have the same ranges for both their Sol and Lune versions, it's gonna be real disappointing.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - hadriel - 2013-04-13
Hanabira.Kage Wrote:When I saw Moon Shadow's animation, the first thing that came to my mind was "ZANKUUJIN!! MUJINSHOUUUUUUUUUUU!!!"
Spoiler
I wonder if that's where they got the animation from.
Haven't checked the ranges on the skills yet, but if most of the skills have the same ranges for both their Sol and Lune versions, it's gonna be real disappointing.
Almost all the ranges for the Sun and Moon versions of the skills are identical. Almost, that is, but by 4th job the skills that matter have the same ranges.
Hadriel
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - kruimel0 - 2013-04-13
godofturtles Wrote:Wild Hunter "gimmicks" are not the same as the "gimmicks" of a class such as Luminous. Most new classes that they release have some sort of unique, non-cosmetic system (as in no jaguars/dragons that are mostly for aesthetics) that is supposed to set that class apart from others. Things like Demon Avenger's exceed system, Phantom's skill steal, etc. Of course in the end they all have similarities, but those so called gimmicks are the best they are gonna do in terms of making classes different. I'm guessing that at the moment, people are not completely ok with how Dawn Warrior's gimmick is turning out. I love the concept, but otherwise I'm really not getting the same feeling I got from the previous two revamps that really impressed me.
You're saying Dawn Warriors have no uniqueness around them, or at least no new innovative systems.
One thing I totally miss in this discussion: Dawn Warriors are now the only class that have different attacks by using the same key on different circumstances, as much as 4 for one attack if I see that correctly (sun/moon, standing/jumping).
That sounds kinda totally unique to me.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - High - 2013-04-13
kruimel0 Wrote:You're saying Dawn Warriors have no uniqueness around them, or at least no new innovative systems.
One thing I totally miss in this discussion: Dawn Warriors are now the only class that have different attacks by using the same key on different circumstances, as much as 4 for one attack if I see that correctly (sun/moon, standing/jumping).
That sounds kinda totally unique to me.
Xenon
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - kruimel0 - 2013-04-13
High Wrote:Xenon
Good point.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Curtiss - 2013-04-13
kruimel0 Wrote:You're saying Dawn Warriors have no uniqueness around them, or at least no new innovative systems.
One thing I totally miss in this discussion: Dawn Warriors are now the only class that have different attacks by using the same key on different circumstances, as much as 4 for one attack if I see that correctly (sun/moon, standing/jumping).
That sounds kinda totally unique to me.
I interpreted the part you were talking about differently:
Quote:I'm guessing that at the moment, people are not completely ok with how Dawn Warrior's gimmick is turning out. I love the concept, but otherwise I'm really not getting the same feeling I got from the previous two revamps that really impressed me.
In this case he seems to be talking more about how reactions to this class have been underwhelming compared to Thunder Breakers and Wind Archers in spite of their gimmicks and how he feels the same way even though the concept is something he likes. Even after seeing the other Dawn Warrior videos I'm still not enthusiastic about this class because it does try to do something new and it's neat how they integrated the dawn in Dawn Warrior into the skills and fighting style, but I just can't get it out of my mind that a two-handed sword user is somehow able to spin a weapon around like Xenon's Blade Dancing.
In short it's fairly unique, but the feeling just isn't there. It's kind of like how you might love a game's graphics, music, story and battle system but you end up not feeling good about it as a whole because the package is more disappointing than the sum of its products.
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - hadriel - 2013-04-13
Patience. This is but the very first KMST patch for DW. We can do the blasting later if it's still that bad in KMS. Look at BaM when it was freshly released in KMST. Although to be fair they're not leaving a very deep impression in me here.
Hadriel
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - godofturtles - 2013-04-13
Hmm, I looked at the skill tables without placeholders and my opinion of the class improved a little bit, however it looks like the entire solunar system is for the most part aesthetic. I didn't see a huge difference between the solar and lunar variations except for a few which were really just a matter of 360 degree AOE or straight forward AOE (or push vs. pull). Yes, the system is unique in terms of looks and variety in skill animations so you don't have to see the same skill over and over in a row somewhat, but otherwise I'm just not seeing as interested in the class mechanics as I was previous revamps and classes. It certainly is a good class, don't get me wrong, it has a bind apparently in 4th job and at the moment has really good %s, but overall it just seems to be missing something.
And it is NOT like Hayato, I'm amazed at the people saying that. Have they even played Hayato?
KMST 1.2.475 Dawn Warrior Revamp - Hanabira.Kage - 2013-04-13
godofturtles Wrote:Hmm, I looked at the skill tables without placeholders and my opinion of the class improved a little bit, however it looks like the entire solunar system is for the most part aesthetic. I didn't see a huge difference between the solar and lunar variations except for a few which were really just a matter of 360 degree AOE or straight forward AOE (or push vs. pull). Yes, the system is unique in terms of looks and variety in skill animations so you don't have to see the same skill over and over in a row somewhat, but otherwise I'm just not seeing as interested in the class mechanics as I was previous revamps and classes. It certainly is a good class, don't get me wrong, it has a bind apparently in 4th job and at the moment has really good %s, but overall it just seems to be missing something.
IMO, they really should make the two versions of every skill completely different, rather than do so for just a few skills.
On the Solar/Lunar buffs, I think it'd be less...wasteful if they gave Solunar Time a short duration along with a cooldown so that Falling Moon and Rising Sun don't become completely obsolete. Maybe nerf Falling Moon and Rising Sun, and give Solunar Time a passive to buff the two to their current levels.
...well, since Solunar Time is in 4th Job along with that passive that buffs Falling Moon and Rising Sun, I say push all three buffs down a tier, nerfing them a little. Or merge Falling Moon and Rising Sun into a single "mode switch" skill in 2nd Job, and shift Solunar Time down to 3rd. Using the "mode switch" skill while unbuffed would place you in Lunar, and using it while buffed would rebuff you so you'd be in the other mode...or something like that.
On the Solar/Lunar buffs, I think it'd be less...wasteful if they gave Solunar Time a short duration along with a cooldown so that Falling Moon and Rising Sun don't become completely obsolete. Maybe nerf Falling Moon and Rising Sun, and give Solunar Time a passive to buff the two to their current levels.
...well, since Solunar Time is in 4th Job along with that passive that buffs Falling Moon and Rising Sun, I say push all three buffs down a tier, nerfing them a little. Or merge Falling Moon and Rising Sun into a single "mode switch" skill in 2nd Job, and shift Solunar Time down to 3rd. Using the "mode switch" skill while unbuffed would place you in Lunar, and using it while buffed would rebuff you so you'd be in the other mode...or something like that.