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+--- Thread: A frank and open dialogue about hacking (/showthread.php?tid=55126)
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - KhainiWest - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:That's where things become an epic disaster of he said/she said, favortism accusations, 'why did you punish x but not y' and endless protests of bias and inequity.
In order for a rule to be carried out with any degree of consistency it has to be measurable and have set limits for what is inside and outside of bounds.
Moderators have discretionary power, but that power is meant to cover things outside the norm, and things that stretch or push rules, not to infract on whimsy, hunch and hearsay.
Curious, how do you enforce the "ban avoid" rule, do you Ip track, look through posts to see if it's announced, or what flags you to check?
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
KhainiWest Wrote:Curious, how do you enforce the "ban avoid" rule, do you Ip track, look through posts to see if it's announced, or what flags you to check?
And why would I give you an explanation of how to avoid it?
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - KhainiWest - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:And why would I give you an explanation of how to avoid it?
Are you saying I'm going to get banned soon?
But you answered my question, it is actively checked. Will "hearsay" hold more ground, well rather, questionable evidence in general, now that there is an "appeal" section?
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
Exactly where would the relationship between either of those concepts be?
I see no correlation to even have a clue where your question is coming from.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - KhainiWest - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:Exactly where would the relationship between either of those concepts be?
I see no correlation to even have a clue where your question is coming from.
There is a correlation but I don't think it's necessary to discuss all over again, it's just if we were to have the same circumstances occur in the future, will the appeal section make it easier for peoples accusation to be taken as more than accusations
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
How would a section where you go to enter why an infraction was wrongly applied to you, a feature we've always had in the first place just a different implementation of the concept, help people's accusations suddenly turn into infractions?
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - KhainiWest - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:How would a section where you go to enter why an infraction was wrongly applied to you, a feature we've always had in the first place just a different implementation of the concept, help people's accusations suddenly turn into infractions?
Example
Lunchbox is an alternate account of Printer, who was previously banned for posting directions on how to hack maplestories myspace *proof* (evidence being that the username "Printer" posted in a thread his apathy for the website as he was recently banned stupidly over "hacking".)
With the appeal section will the staff be quicker to the trigger now that there is a section specifically for appealing it? As such the evidence doesn't prove anything more than "hearsay" but with an appeal section, ban now investigate later? And I wasn't aware of an appeal section so that might maket his all entirely void.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - SaptaZapta - 2012-06-27
I'd like to point out, again, that we already have several offenses in the R&R that are subject to moderator discretion.
A person flaunting their illegitimate possessions could be subject to warning/infraction for Drama, Baiting, or Flaming, depending on how they do it.
Some of you are suggesting adding yet another rule, "Illegitimacy", which again is all in the eye of the moderator (or the entire team, if an appeal is made). The existing rule, "Hacking", is, obviously, entirely separate.
I don't see what would be gained, except for more bad feelings as Eos listed a few posts ago.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
Having an appeal system is not an excuse to just assume everyone is guilty of something. I don't even begin to see how you made that connection.
Our criteria for establishing guilt has not changed. You either broke a rule or you did not.
"I think Bob is a hacker" did not magically become a reason to punish bob just because "if bob is innocent he can appeal to prove he's OK"
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - IImaplers - 2012-06-27
ShinkuDragon Wrote:that multi-quote you pulled made me think you were actually khaini for a moment heh.I get that a lot, hehe.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:in order: what i meant is "where would YOU draw the line of legit, the dominator, the VSS, all i listed are illegit items one way or another, and almost* everyone has come in contact with a variation of them, heck i think 27 attk's are less than 1b in scania atm? it's ridiculousFor me, it's easy to draw the line. Anything that has been duped to death is illegit, anything that has been EE/etc. hacked is illegit, anything that is made with hacked scrolls is illegit. It's simple, and most of the time it's almost obvious for anyone with common sense and at least a few months of experience playing to tell. 27 attack shoes are illegit any way you slice it. They were scrolled with duped 10% and then duped themselves. Dominator pendants are obviously illegit simply because they were made with botted and duped materials. The majority of players have one type of illegit item or another by now, and I don't blame them, but that doesn't mean it's right for them to have them.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:but think about it, stockpiling, merching, preparing for a new weapon, i wouldn't be surprised if someone had a stack of 20%'s, WS and protects saved for phantom from long ago, which they obtained through merching or other non-duping means.
it would also mean that:
fully scrolled self-made dominator=A-ok
30 protects+WS+a clean dominator=warn/ban
they both produce the same result, your method would be punishing the one who hasn't scrolled yet, i know you want to punish the gloating hackers, but others shouldn't pay because of that
No. All the items you've listed would imo warrant a ban/infraction to some degree because they are ALL illegitimate items. Like I said before, just because everyone and their mother has them does not make it right for them to, regardless of the fact that it is basically not frowned upon at all by the majority. Still does not make it right.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:the rules may allow them in, and they should, because the person isn't hacking, nowhere does it say that the community has to welcome them though.But they aren't welcomed any less than those who are proponents of being completely legit.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:dunno if the people i think hack or not, but a lot of the informative people have connections/knowledge to/of people hackingNothing wrong with having connections, but if you also hack for your own personal gain, that, to me, outweighs whatever type of good information you can provide to everyone. Maybe I'm too extreme in my personal view of all things hacker-related, but the community being too tolerant of it kind of forced my hand.
Eos Wrote:That's where things become an epic disaster of he said/she said, favortism accusations, 'why did you punish x but not y' and endless protests of bias and inequity.Nah, I don't think that would happen here much at all. This is not baslol and never will be. I think the majority of us normal users here understand that the at-least current mods try to be as objective as possible when making their decisions.
Eos Wrote:In order for a rule to be carried out with any degree of consistency it has to be measurable and have set limits for what is inside and outside of bounds.I'm saying that it is measurable and I pointed out my measurements already.
Eos Wrote:Moderators have discretionary power, but that power is meant to cover things outside the norm, and things that stretch or push rules, not to infract on whimsy, hunch and hearsay.Remember when illegit items were outside the norm in the game? Them now being inside the norm means no rules are needed anymore? It's too much of a downward spiral. If Nexon's rules are ridiculously *tolerant that doesn't mean this forum's should be as well. I'm not saying that infracting on whimsy, hunch, or hearsay shouldn't be avoided at all costs, but I am saying that it is sometimes necessary to send a message; and that's better than doing what we're currently doing about this issue.
Again, maybe I'm too extreme with my views, but I think I have very valid points.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Shidoshi - 2012-06-27
IImaplers Wrote:Nah, I don't think that would happen here much at all. This is not baslol and never will be. I think the majority of us normal users here understand that the at-least current mods try to be as objective as possible when making their decisions.
IIMaplers, you must be new here. People have been skirting on the line of the rules for a while and problem people with remarkably good skills at nitpicking rules have always been a bother here.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - IImaplers - 2012-06-27
Shidoshi Wrote:IIMaplers, you must be new here. People have been skirting on the line of the rules for a while and problem people with remarkably good skills at nitpicking rules have always been a bother here.
I do not understand what you mean. Can you elaborate and/or give some real examples?
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - ShinkuDragon - 2012-06-27
IImaplers Wrote:I do not understand what you mean. Can you elaborate and/or give some real examples?
he means that everyone here has implied stuff of different degrees, for good or bad. at least that's how i get it.
i do think your views are kinda extreme, not going to go back into the whole GM/WS/50% business, that has had 10 too many thread, this would literally throw down the achievements thread, godly-scrolled equips thread, dojo times thread and others (for the most part) since almost all of these are made with the help of illegit items.
(technically speaking though, "illegit items" are actually a-ok according to the ToS, as long as everyone has access to them, which is just facepalmingly-lulzy)
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Andross - 2012-06-27
Shidoshi Wrote:IIMaplers, you must be new here. People have been skirting on the line of the rules for a while and problem people with remarkably good skills at nitpicking rules have always been a bother here.
People with remarkably good skills at nitpicking and arguing semantics make up pretty much all of Southperry's "Top Posters".
Link Wrote:No one really gives a crap about private servers. It's okay to talk about private server impacts on the game and whatnot, just as long as you don't name/advertise them or link to them. Playing a private server and hacking the game aren't the same thing. Southperry isn't a site that condones private servers or anything, but their impacts on the game, the lawsuits that happen, etc. are okay to talk about. If you want to invite people to play one with you, it'd be better to keep it under wraps and do it via private messages.
Thanks for this.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - IImaplers - 2012-06-27
ShinkuDragon Wrote:he means that everyone here has implied stuff of different degrees, for good or bad. at least that's how i get it.I don't see how that would be a bother. I can see how chronic nit-pickers can be slightly annoying but that is the extent of their influence to me.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:i do think your views are kinda extreme, not going to go back into the whole GM/WS/50% business, that has had 10 too many thread, this would literally throw down the achievements thread, godly-scrolled equips thread, dojo times thread and others (for the most part) since almost all of these are made with the help of illegit items.those achievement-type threads have a tendency to not contain any actually real hard-earned achievements, so I don't care what happens in them as long as it's done reasonably right. And the TOS's technical misgivings shouldn't justify anything.
(technically speaking though, "illegit items" are actually a-ok according to the ToS, as long as everyone has access to them, which is just facepalmingly-lulzy)
[MENTION=9081]Andross[/MENTION] Does it rhyme with SnakeSnacker? (No offense to anyone including SnakeSnacker, who is awesome in his own way).
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
IImaplers Wrote:Nah, I don't think that would happen here much at all. This is not baslol and never will be. I think the majority of us normal users here understand that the at-least current mods try to be as objective as possible when making their decisions.
Humans are humans. People do it here today. The Ban Appeal forum is full of people asking why so and so didn't get banned when they did.
No doubt the infraction appeal forum will soon be too.
The measurements you tried to give were not objective in the slightest. They just automatically assume that anyone who has anything better than what you consider acceptable is illegit and punishes for it. Worse, they have no way to appeal that sort of "crime" - How do you prove something wasn't made illegally short of having a video of the creation of every item you ever touch all the way back to the origin of every scroll you personally hand farmed?
Expecting us to police what Nexon can't is absurd. It's their game, it's their issue. They need to be the ones to fix it, not us playing whack a mole trying to pretend it's something we can even begin to impact.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - IImaplers - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:Humans are humans. People do it here today. The Ban Appeal forum is full of people asking why so and so didn't get banned when they did.It comes with the territory. May I ask how many accounts get banned every month or so on average? It can't be that much to give you guys a horrible headache having to deal with appeals, but I totally understand what you're saying.
No doubt the infraction appeal forum will soon be too.
Eos Wrote:The measurements you tried to give were not objective in the slightest. They just automatically assume that anyone who has anything better than what you consider acceptable is illegit and punishes for it. Worse, they have no way to appeal that sort of "crime" - How do you prove something wasn't made illegally short of having a video of the creation of every item you ever touch all the way back to the origin of every scroll you personally hand farmed?If a person with 10 completely legit GM scrolls still has them on an old account, those ten turning to untradable fall by the wayside with the millions of duped versions of them. That's the only unobjective/unfair part of my illegit measurements talking game-wise. For forum-wise, the uncertainty of a screenshot showing 10 such scrolls being illegit or legit may warrant that post as potentially slipping through the cracks. Posts with 301s, 608s, dominator pendants have no possible way of being disputed as being something other than illegit, Nexon doesn't just give them away. I understand that everything else that's commonly duped is not completely obvious, but it's obvious enough.
"How do you prove something wasn't made illegally short of having a video of the creation of every item you ever touch all the way back to the origin of every scroll you personally hand farmed?" You can't. But you'd have to trust your instincts and common knowledge to gather an assessment, just like a tiger deciding which wildebeast of two standing next to each other makes for easier prey. I know anyone handling this type of thing can't be completely objective, but no one can be. What matters is whether or not they'd try to be to the best of their ability. I think the mods qualify as such from my perspective.
Eos Wrote:Expecting us to police what Nexon can't is absurd. It's their game, it's their issue. They need to be the ones to fix it, not us playing whack a mole trying to pretend it's something we can even begin to impact.Completely justifiable. I don't expect it, but I think the 5 or so people (LOL) who share my views on this would be appreciative of it, and it would impact SP, at least, positively when all is said, done and routine. I'll end it here. There's probably no need to keep pushing this argument one way or the other for either of us.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Eos - 2012-06-27
IImaplers Wrote:May I ask how many accounts get banned every month or so on average?
| WeekStart | 2012-05-06 | 2012-05-13 | 2012-05-20 | 2012-05-27 | 2012-06-03 | 2012-06-10 | 2012-06-17 |
| WeekEnd | 2012-05-13 | 2012-05-20 | 2012-05-27 | 2012-06-03 | 2012-06-10 | 2012-06-17 | 2012-06-24 |
| Registrations | 17 | 15 | 12 | 16 | 16 | 22 | 30 |
| ActiveUsers | 559 | 548 | 546 | 548 | 525 | 534 | 582 |
| PostingUsers | 321 | 306 | 297 | 304 | 321 | 304 | 369 |
| FaceBooks | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Bans | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| Warnings | 6 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 7 | 3 | 4 |
| Infractions | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 7 |
| Threads | 162 | 143 | 107 | 134 | 151 | 163 | 233 |
| Posts | 3495 | 2866 | 2595 | 2783 | 3692 | 3766 | 4595 |
| Blogs | 4 | 4 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
| SocialGroupPosts | 25 | 7 | 8 | 0 | 8 | 1 | 9 |
| KarmaPurchases | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| MarketTransactions | 14 | 5 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 2 |
IImaplers Wrote:It can't be that much to give you guys a horrible headache having to deal with appeals
It certainly would be if we just started banning on a whim. Until of course no one visited us any more because of the absurd moderation.
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - Untradeable - 2012-06-27
Facebooks: 0
A frank and open dialogue about hacking - IImaplers - 2012-06-27
Eos Wrote:
WeekStart 2012-05-06 2012-05-13 2012-05-20 2012-05-27 2012-06-03 2012-06-10 2012-06-17 WeekEnd 2012-05-13 2012-05-20 2012-05-27 2012-06-03 2012-06-10 2012-06-17 2012-06-24 Registrations 17 15 12 16 16 22 30 ActiveUsers 559 548 546 548 525 534 582 PostingUsers 321 306 297 304 321 304 369 FaceBooks 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Bans 0 4 1 0 1 1 2 Warnings 6 2 1 5 7 3 4 Infractions 1 3 2 1 5 1 7 Threads 162 143 107 134 151 163 233 Posts 3495 2866 2595 2783 3692 3766 4595 Blogs 4 4 0 3 2 5 3 SocialGroupPosts 25 7 8 0 8 1 9 KarmaPurchases 3 2 0 0 0 0 1 MarketTransactions 14 5 0 4 1 0 2
It certainly would be if we just started banning on a whim. Until of course no one visited us any more because of the absurd moderation.
That's so much less than I thought it would be. And unfortunately, now I understand how careful you guys have to be because there's not much members (compared to youknowwhat) after seeing it from a forum administrator's perspective. Maybe banning would be too much. Definitely warnings and perhaps infractions in extreme circumstances sounds like a more common ground to me and my radical views. And I also just feel that something more needs to be done so that more DamageCalcV36s don't show up or stick around. Regardless, I honestly think you people are doing a great job anyway.
[MENTION=9280]Untradeable[/MENTION][MENTION=2054]Eos[/MENTION] What does "facebooks" mean and how do I sign up?